Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Somehow I doubt that's the whole answer

Well don't be cryptic share what you think so we can discuss?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well don't be cryptic share what you think so we can discuss?

Praying it's not a "graders are being paid under the table" conspiracy

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Praying it's not a "graders are being paid under the table" conspiracy

I've never heard any credible evidence for that theory, but I understand why people would believe it in the face of so many mistakes. That said, after two and a half decades, some disgruntled employee surely would have said something if that were the case.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Praying it's not a "graders are being paid under the table" conspiracy

Given the amount of money at stake I'd be much more surprised to find out that graders aren't being paid under the table.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Given the amount of money at stake I'd be much more surprised to find out that graders aren't being paid under the table.

But PWCC is clean.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by calvindog

But PWCC is clean.

It's not looking good right now but I haven't seen enough to say for certain. If you were defending Brent based on the evidence released to date could you get him off?

I don't think I you can hold an auction house responsible for selling altered cards that were good enough to make it through PSA or SGC. Even if someone did pay off a grade or 2 to get them through.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

It's not looking good right now but I haven't seen enough to say for certain. If you were defending Brent based on the evidence released to date could you get him off?

I don't think I you can hold an auction house responsible for selling altered cards that were good enough to make it through PSA or SGC. Even if someone did pay off a grade or 2 to get them through.

You clearly know the law very well. On what basis are you even opining about what it is? Seriously?

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You clearly know the law very well. On what basis are you even opining about what it is? Seriously?

Just common sense. If they reasonably believed the cards were authentic, and a grading company agreed, how do you hold an auction house accountable. I would hope you know the law better than I do so enlighten me. What crime would have been committed?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Given the amount of money at stake I'd be much more surprised to find out that graders aren't being paid under the table.

once again we agree, and it's not my Kelsey Grammer this time...

[Fuddjcal]

I think the thing that just rubs me the wrong way is that the cards are being purchased by the DR's from PWCC. They then crack it out, doctor it up and give it back to PWCC to submit to PSA, to get a higher grade and Then sell it again with PWCC??? LOL. If that ain't a crock of smelly dung, I don't know what is. Nice business model PWCC. you don't have a clue? Sure you don't.

PWCC knows Exactly what they are doing , IMHO and it is very shady to say the least. I hope I'm alive to see PSA become GAI.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I think the thing that just rubs me the wrong way is that the cards are being purchased by the DR's from PWCC. They then crack it out, doctor it up and give it back to PWCC to submit to PS, to get a higher grade and Then sell it again with PWCC??? LOL. If that ain't a crock of smelly dung, I don't know what is. Nice business model PWCC. you don't have a clue? Sure you don't.

PWCC knows Exactly what they are doing , IMHO and it is very shady to say the least. I hope I'm alive to see PSA become GAI.

Yesyesyes

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I hope I'm alive to see PSA become GAI.

+1

I think there are many parties involved. All it takes is for one to get caught and then that person will start turning on others. I truly believe it will happen soon.

[jchcollins]

Just out of curiosity, what do you all think the run-of-the-mill collector picking up either pre- or postwar cards at shows in the 1980's and 90's really dealt with in terms of trimming / alterations? Supposedly the "rampant" level of it back then was why PSA came to be in the first place. Was it worse then? Worse now with what we are seeing out of PWCC?

Just curious as to what some of the speculated difference in the eras was. I was a kid collector back then who would have been totally blindsided by trimming, but I generally couldn't afford vintage with sharp corners anyway - so maybe I lucked out.

[irv]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Plausible deniability.

Conscious avoidance.

Follow the money.

Post 1150 onward. (Football player) Betsy was informed of this card currently in their auction but the auction is still up and open.

I guess the old saying talk is cheap is true, or tell the people what they want to hear not what is reality.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=46

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Just out of curiosity, what do you all think the run-of-the-mill collector picking up either pre- or postwar cards at shows in the 1980's and 90's really dealt with in terms of trimming / alterations? Supposedly the "rampant" level of it back then was why PSA came to be in the first place. Was it worse then? Worse now with what we are seeing out of PWCC?

Just curious as to what some of the speculated difference in the eras was. I was a kid collector back then who would have been totally blindsided by trimming, but I generally couldn't afford vintage with sharp corners anyway - so maybe I lucked out.

As a kid collecting in the early 80s I was duped a few times into buying counterfeit cards...a frojoy ruth sheet...a fake mayo. I bought a 1971 Thurman Munson at a show over 20 years ago and was later shown that the edges were marked in to make it look better.

I think the doctoring has gotten much more advanced over the last 20 years mostly due to third-party grading and the values these cards can bring

[Mrc32]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Just out of curiosity, what do you all think the run-of-the-mill collector picking up either pre- or postwar cards at shows in the 1980's and 90's really dealt with in terms of trimming / alterations? Supposedly the "rampant" level of it back then was why PSA came to be in the first place. Was it worse then? Worse now with what we are seeing out of PWCC?

That is an interesting take.

So the solution to the rampant trimming and alteration (professional grading) caused so much price inflation and value that it by extension created more fraud and trimming so crooks could take advantage of the increases in price? LOL.