PWCC planning to redefine the difference between altered and conserved in cards

[rats60]

Originally Posted by jayshum

How come they consider recoloration to be alteration instead of conservation? Wouldn't that just be an "act which returns a card closer to its as-manufactured condition and does not render the card artificially different from the as-manufactured state"? That's their definition of conservation.

Really corner rebuilding is also returning it to the as-manufactured state. Trimming would seem to be the only thing that would be classified as alteration based on the above definition of conservation.

It is my understanding of what they posted that if you are adding (adding color to a corner or edge) or taking away (trimming), that is alteration. They are OK with anything else, pressing corners, creases, removing stains, whitening borders or anything else that removes something from the card that wasn't originally there. That is considered "conservation" by PWCC. The Joe DiMaggio rookie from last year and this 52 Topps Mantle are OK by their standards as I understand them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

It is my understanding of what they posted that if you are adding (adding color to a corner or edge) or taking away (trimming), that is alteration. They are OK with anything else, pressing corners, creases, removing stains, whitening borders or anything else that removes something from the card that wasn't originally there. That is considered "conservation" by PWCC. The Joe DiMaggio rookie from last year and this 52 Topps Mantle are OK by their standards as I understand them.

And if it's trimmed, they'll just hide behind PSA. All the bases are covered.

[Leon]

While I disagree with the pressing out of corners I still like most of what else PWCC is doing. I won't throw the whole business out with one disagreement. If that were the case the PSA 8 Wagner would make PSA go out of business and it hasn't.

Actually, pressing the corners does change the composition of the card so maybe they will backtrack on that one aspect. Pressing out a soaked corner can only lead to a thinner card and then trimming to make it the correct size again. Not a good idea.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

While I disagree with the pressing out of corners I still like most of what else PWCC is doing. I won't throw the whole business out with one disagreement. If that were the case the PSA 8 Wagner would make PSA go out of business and it hasn't.

It's not just the pressing out of corners, it's a global contempt for the collective ethos of the hobby on altered cards, in order to justify the sale of obviously altered cards. Let's be honest about this. It goes well beyond this particular Mantle card.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's not just the pressing out of corners, it's a global contempt for the collective ethos of the hobby on altered cards, in order to justify the sale of obviously altered cards. Let's be honest about this.

I disagree. They are trying to change the hobby for the better and, imo, misstepped on this one idea. There is no justification for pressing a cards corners out after soaking it. It all goes back to changing the card. Don't change it and I am ok with it. If it came from the factory with thinner corners than the rest of the card then it would be fine. But as far as I know that isn't how any cards have been made.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I disagree. They are trying to change the hobby for the better and, imo, misstepped on this one idea. There is no justification for pressing a cards corners out after soaking it. It all goes back to changing the card. Don't change it and I am ok with it. If it came from the factory with thinner corners than the rest of the card then it would be fine. But as far as I know that isn't how any cards have been made.

They are trying to make as much money as possible, by whatever means, in my opinion. I don't see any other motive here. Not that there is anything wrong with trying to make money as long as you act ethically, but let's not get starry-eyed. PS If they want to improve the hobby maybe they should stop accepting consignments from certain people. They won't.

[Leon]

They are probably accepting graded cards from the big TPG's. Whose fault is that? I agree that there is too much crap going on but, you know better than i do, stuff trumps all. OF course they want to make money but I also believe Brent is thinking outside of the box on a lot of stuff. His museum idea and vault ideas might take off. It is early on but there are some wealthy folks eyeing it. Personally, I would love to seem some museum quality cards that are hidden away in safes.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They are trying to make as much money as possible, by whatever means, in my opinion. I don't see any other motive here. Not that there is anything wrong with trying to make money as long as you act ethically, but let's not get starry-eyed. PS If they want to improve the hobby maybe they should stop accepting consignments from certain people. They won't.