"1888" GOODWIN CHAMPIONS (N162) cards are actually an 1889 set

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Not sure where you are getting your information, but Old Judges are albumen prints.

How do you know?

[oldjudge]

Well I’ve handled a few albumen photographs over the years.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Well I’ve handled a few albumen photographs over the years.

No way they used eggs.

Sorry, but they're not albumen.

[oaks1912]

Ted and Joe, I think that you're both right...Hear me out... The previous year (1887), Gypsy Queen cigarettes were introduced to the San Francisco / Northern California market. I' have an advertisement from the September 24, 1887 CITY ARGUS (San Francisco). This FRONT PAGE ad promotes Gypsy Queen Cigarettes being "The Latest and Best" and that they contain photographs of all the leading pugilists, baseball players and actresses. While issued as one series, modern collectors break it down into three series.... N-171 Actresses, N-174 Boxing, and N-175 Baseball.


Taking it a step further, most baseball ONLY sets (T-206, 1933 Goudey, etc ) were primarily distributed during baseball season (Early April to late September) . However this series, much like the N-162 Champions set issued a year later, contained subjects from multiple sports / activities. It wouldn't necessarily have to be issued exclusively during baseball season

Would it make sense that a multi-sport / subject set could run from September to perhaps April or May of the following year. This would address the issue of coupons have two different years on them, and the handwritten date written on Ted's example (Which obviously was not done at the factory) when a gift was presented to a family member or friend.

[tedzan]

Double post.

[ramram]

I have seen a large number of early images and I don’t think I have ever seen a salt print outside of the 1850’s/1860’s. They were a difficult process that gave way to the more economical albumens. Salt prints are quite rare and hard to find for a reason.

Rob M

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by ramram

I have seen a large number of early images and I don’t think I have ever seen a salt print outside of the 1850’s/1860’s. They were a difficult process that gave way to the more economical albumens. Salt prints are quite rare and hard to find for a reason.

Rob M

Were they really easier and more economical? I have my doubts.

Goodwin was based in New York. They could have easily sent an employee or two to retrieve a wagon load of ocean water every week, which would have been basically free.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

No way they used eggs.

Sorry, but they're not albumen.

BTW, what is your photographic background? Are your conclusions based on your examination of Old Judge cards or is yours solely an economic analysis?

[oldjudge]

BTW, if, based on your extensive experience, you don't believe me, here is the description from the Metropolitan Museum of Art Burdick Collection for one of the cards. I don't know for certain, but my guess is that they also know more about the topic than you.

From the series Old Judge Cigarettes

Publisher:Issued by Goodwin & Company
Date:1888
Medium:Albumen print photograph, cabinet card
Dimensions:sheet: 6 1/2 x 4 3/8 in. (16.5 x 11.1 cm)
Classifications:Photographs, Ephemera
Credit Line:The Jefferson R. Burdick Collection, Gift of Jefferson R. Burdick
Accession Number:63.350.214.173.152

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

BTW, if, based on your extensive experience, you don't believe me, here is the description from the Metropolitan Museum of Art Burdick Collection for one of the cards. I don't know for certain, but my guess is that they also know more about the topic than you.

From the series Old Judge Cigarettes

Publisher:Issued by Goodwin & Company
Date:1888
Medium:Albumen print photograph, cabinet card
Dimensions:sheet: 6 1/2 x 4 3/8 in. (16.5 x 11.1 cm)
Classifications:Photographs, Ephemera
Credit Line:The Jefferson R. Burdick Collection, Gift of Jefferson R. Burdick
Accession Number:63.350.214.173.152

Originally Posted by oldjudge

BTW, what is your photographic background? Are your conclusions based on your examination of Old Judge cards or is yours solely an economic analysis?

They're just guessing. Everything is an albumen print until proven otherwise too at the LOC. They're not going to pay for lab testing to find out.

There is very little visual difference between a salt print with gelatin and an albumen print. You can sometimes, however, pick out subtle differences.

Do you see a difference in sharpness and quality between the OJ cabinets and the OJ cards? I'm sure most people will, because the OJ cabinets were made with higher quality materials, and cheap giveaway OJs were made with the cheapest.

What about differences in quality between a stereoview card and an OJ? Stereoview cards were albumen. Why? Because they were sold to people. Quality mattered. OJ cards? Not so much. They were given away, for free.

[Joe_G.]

Mark, so nice to see you post. Your GQ advertisement from the 1887 City Argus is among my favorite advertising pieces. Let me know if you ever locate a second one.

Manny, I'm following your responses with interest.

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

They're just guessing. Everything is an albumen print until proven otherwise too at the LOC. They're not going to pay for lab testing to find out.

There is very little visual difference between a salt print with gelatin and an albumen print. You can sometimes, however, pick out subtle differences.

Do you see a difference in sharpness and quality between the OJ cabinets and the OJ cards? I'm sure most people will, because the OJ cabinets were made with higher quality materials, and cheap giveaway OJs were made with the cheapest.

What about differences in quality between a stereoview card and an OJ? Stereoview cards were albumen. Why? Because they were sold to people. Quality mattered. OJ cards? Not so much. They were given away, for free.

Do you know how much it costs to analyze a card and is it destructive in any way? Jay, myself, and others have noted a decline in quality for the 1890 OJs vs earlier years. It would be interesting to have a couple cards from each year tested. The earlier cards, especially the 1887 Brooklyn players, have held up well over the years. In 1889, many of the cards have varying levels of pink tinting. It would be interesting to verify salt vs albumen print. It would surprise a lot of people if some of our 19th century photographic cards were found to be salt prints.