OT: Hall of Fame - Edgar Martinez?

[perezfan]

The Hall of Fame voting will be released later today, and according to the Tracker it's looking pretty clear-cut (except for one player in particular...)

IN:
Chipper
Vlad
Thome
Hoffman (barely)

OUT:
Mussina
Bonds
Clemens
Schilling
And the remainder of the field, who have no chance this year.

But the one fellow truly on the bubble is Edgar Martinez. It's a crowded field this year... perhaps Edgar gets in next year (which is his final year of eligibility). Much of the debate surrounds the DH position in general.

What do you think... Is Edgar a Hall of Famer?

[packs]

To me he is. I think he'll be similar to Jim Rice i.e. the "you had to see him play" argument. No one wanted to see him at the plate.

[pclpads]

Far from being a"5 tool" player, he was strictly one dimensional. Very good at what he did, but is that HOF worthy? I say no.

[packs]

I'd say Thome was a pretty one dimensional player. But if you can put a guy in for hitting homers, you should be able to put a guy in for being a professional hitter too.

[drcy]

He's a local hero here in Seattle, and they even have a street named after him. The local news here is totally biased for him. However, I'm not particularly a Mariners (or Seahawks) fan, so I don't have the homer bias.

[Touch'EmAll]

How about the only athlete in history to be an All-Star in both Major League Baseball and the National Football League? His short lived career highlight film is jam packed with seemingly unending absolutely incredible mind-boggling plays - Power! Defense! Offense! off the chart! Some of these other guys mentioned couldn't even hold his jock strap. Famous, you ask? Yup, big time!

[RaidonCollects]

Edgar should definitely get in IMO, .312 / .418 / .515 over 18 years plus a 68.3 WAR + loads of other great stats.

I think this is one of the strongest HOF selections in a while, Moose, Guerrero, Jones, Thome, Walker, Schilling and Hoffman all deserve a spot.

Just my opinions,

Owen

[insidethewrapper]

I thought the Hall had higher standards - only 2247 hits for Edgar. Let everyone in, except some of the Best players of all time ( Pete Rose, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens ). These greats must continue to have their hands slapped.

[PowderedH2O]

Funny how we will hold it against Edgar for not playing the field for the last ten years of his career after he got hurt, but we don't apply the same logic to guys like Trevor Hoffman. In 18 years of National League baseball, Hoffman came to the plate 36 times. He pitched 1035 times, but pitched less than 1100 innings and never started a game. Hoffman is one dimensional. Edgar is too. I think both were pretty darned good at that one dimension. I say let em in!

[Rookiemonster]

Greatest DH of all time yes. Hall of famer not really. I feel like putting him in is a way of just putting fan favorites to please the masses. A lot of the greats from the 80s and 90s have been tarnished by the roids. So now the Hall wants to put in players that make you feel good. Like we can’t see the major holes in the halls inductees. No Rose no Bonds no clemens and joe Jackson ? Oh but we got Jack Morris , Alan trammel and Edgar Martinez.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mussina is much much better than many pitchers in the HOF. I don't think Hoffman was that good personally.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I thought the Hall had higher standards - only 2247 hits for Edgar. Let everyone in, except some of the Best players of all time ( Pete Rose, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens ). These greats must continue to have their hands slapped.

It's hard to take an institution seriously that excludes a 7 time MVP winner and 7 time Cy Young winner.

[packs]

I think it would be harder to take them seriously if they put them in.

[kailes2872]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's hard to take an institution seriously that excludes a 7 time MVP winner and 7 time Cy Young winner.

Especially with Selig, Pudge, Bagwell, and Piazza in. Oh and look at Ricky Herderson’s power in the early ‘90s while with the bash brothers. The selective outrage is nauseating. Let them in

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kailes2872

Especially with Selig, Pudge, Bagwell, and Piazza in. Oh and look at Ricky Herderson’s power in the early ‘90s while with the bash brothers. The selective outrage is nauseating. Let them in

Not to mention, again lol, all the greenie poppers we worship. Oh BTW Randy Johnson's best years were in his mid and late 30s. Just saying.

[darwinbulldog]

I don't feel strongly about Edgar either way, but I wouldn't have put Hoffman in. I don't have any objection in principle to voting in a closer or a DH, but Mariano's the only 1-innning guy I've seen who warrants a spot in the Hall. I've seen at least a couple of DHs who were good enough, but on Edgar I'm undecided.

[damonh23]

man that's a tough one, though he had some big forearms! He could hit! But I'd rather see the guy with the most hits in the 1990s get in before Edgar! And that's Mark Grace!

[71buc]

Absolutely Edgar belongs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

From Baseball Reference's Similarity Scores.
Similar Batters
1.Will Clark (902.2)
2.Matt Holliday (894.3)
3.John Olerud (885.6)
4.Moises Alou (879.2)
5.Magglio Ordonez (875.3)
6.Bob Johnson (863.0)
7.Bernie Williams (860.3)
8.Paul O'Neill (852.6)
9.Lance Berkman (851.6)
10.Ellis Burks (850.2)

My opinion -- a definite tier short. Thome, not enthusiastic about, but I guess you have to say yes to a guy with 600 HR if he isn't named Sosa or ARod.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not to mention, again lol, all the greenie poppers we worship. Oh BTW Randy Johnson's best years were in his mid and late 30s. Just saying.

I feel that some teams had a PED culture. I think the mariners were one of those teams as well as the Oakland A’s. As players moved they took the culture with them.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

From Baseball Reference's Similarity Scores.
Similar Batters
1.Will Clark (902.2)
2.Matt Holliday (894.3)
3.John Olerud (885.6)
4.Moises Alou (879.2)
5.Magglio Ordonez (875.3)
6.Bob Johnson (863.0)
7.Bernie Williams (860.3)
8.Paul O'Neill (852.6)
9.Lance Berkman (851.6)
10.Ellis Burks (850.2)

My opinion -- a definite tier short. Thome, not enthusiastic about, but I guess you have to say yes to a guy with 600 HR if he isn't named Sosa or ARod.

Let's hear it for ol' Indian Bob, the pre-war Edgar Martinez (apparently).

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

From Baseball Reference's Similarity Scores.
Similar Batters
1.Will Clark (902.2)
2.Matt Holliday (894.3)
3.John Olerud (885.6)
4.Moises Alou (879.2)
5.Magglio Ordonez (875.3)
6.Bob Johnson (863.0)
7.Bernie Williams (860.3)
8.Paul O'Neill (852.6)
9.Lance Berkman (851.6)
10.Ellis Burks (850.2)

My opinion -- a definite tier short. Thome, not enthusiastic about, but I guess you have to say yes to a guy with 600 HR if he isn't named Sosa or ARod.

This is an instance where similarity score means very little if you ask me. Edgar put up an OPS over 1.000 5 times in his career, including a stretch of 3 seasons in a row. Will Clark never had an OPS over 1.000 over a full season. Neither did Holliday, Johnson, Bernie, or Berkman.

Ordonez put up a 1.000 OPS once, as did Alou, Olerud, and O'Neill (strike season).

Burks only accomplished the feat twice over a full season.

Martinez is better than all of them. His lifetime OPS is 933.

[clydepepper]

Anyone have a link to the tracker?

[Andrew1975]

.418 career OBP, which is 21st ALL TIME, and top 35 all time in OPS. Those statistics are very significant. To me, no question he belongs.

[perezfan]

"Anyone have a link to the tracker?"

Here you go....

75% is needed for Induction to the Hall.

At the time of this post, 239 ballots are in, which represents 57.5% of the total. Traditionally, the support levels drop a bit as the late ballots are tallied.

This is updated in real-time. Here is the link....

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?...AAsz3uDsmqy_Vw

[baseball tourist]

Edgar fell short.

[rhettyeakley]

Edgar belongs.

The fact that there is even debate about the DH is ridiculous once we started to let Relief Pitchers into the HOF. A relief pitcher may only play in 40-50 games per season and may only pitch in 50-60 innings through that entire season. If that kind of "one-trick-pony" can get elected into the HOF so should a professional hitter.

[nat]

Similarity scores don't really mean anything. They were a fun toy Bill James came up with years ago, but they shouldn't be taken seriously. A better idea is to take a look at the players around him in WAR (and then we can talk about the DH penalty in the WAR formula and things like that).

Here you go:

73.
Miguel Cabrera 68.8

Tony Gwynn 68.8

75.
Al Simmons 68.7

76.
Ivan Rodriguez 68.4

77.
Carlton Fisk 68.3

Edgar Martinez 68.3

Eddie Murray 68.3

80.
Kenny Lofton 68.2

81.
Graig Nettles 68.0

82.
Fred Clarke 67.8

83.
Ryne Sandberg 67.5

84.
Ernie Banks 67.4

This is position-player only. 77th all-time, tied with Fisk and Murray. A few non-HOFers in this territory, but mostly guys who are in. There are interesting questions to ask about methodology, but by WAR Martinez looks like a comfortably second-tier Hall-of-Famer.

Curiously, Edgar does only a little bit better in oWAR (the offensive component of WAR). There he's 69th all-time, sandwiched between Rafael Palmeiro and Tony Gwynn.

[Econteachert205]

Here's my new way of determining a hof player. Do I want his rookie card?

Nope.

[kailes2872]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

Here's my new way of determining a hof player. Do I want his rookie card?

Nope.

I like it!

I am going to start a Jerry Koosman campaign with the vet committee!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

Here's my new way of determining a hof player. Do I want his rookie card?

Nope.

I still don't get Hoffman over a guy who was consistently one of the best pitchers in the game, namely Mussina.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hoffman may be the best pitcher in the HOF with a .449 winning percentage.

[h2oya311]

I always liked Hoffman's minor league card showing him as a scrawny kid hoping to one day be a major league SS.

[bobbvc]

Baseball is a defensive game. It's the ONLY game where the defense controls the ball. Can't be a Hall of Famer when you don't play defense in a defensive game. In my opinion.

[BeanTown]

Big Congrats to the players that made it in the MLB HOF! They all deserved it! They will be joining Jack Morris and Alan Trammell thanks to the Modern era committee back in December. Edgar will be getting in next year, as it will be his last attempt to do so I think.

Chipper Jones 97.2%
Vladimir Guerrero 92.2%
Jim Thome 89.8%
Trevor Hoffman 79.9%

Minor league cards (which most are low pop) , are great to collect to! Penny stocks now which may become blue chips tomorrow!!

[rhettyeakley]

There is an even earlier Trevor Hoffman card, he is found in the 1988 University of Arizona baseball team set made by the Tucson police.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-Tucson...wAAOSwLmZZqNWe

[the 'stache]

Martinez is a Hall of Famer. Toss out his last season, when he was 41, and he's got a career 151 OPS +.

This article from Ryan Spaeder of The Sporting News makes the case quite well.

Here are some numbers to mull over:



And I thought this was pretty eye opening:

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Let's hear it for ol' Indian Bob, the pre-war Edgar Martinez (apparently).

Except that Indian Bob was also one of the best defensive left fielder's of all time. He should be in the Hall before Martinez.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Martinez is a Hall of Famer. Toss out his last season, when he was 41, and he's got a career 151 OPS +.

This article from Ryan Spaeder of The Sporting News makes the case quite well.

Here are some numbers to mull over:



And I thought this was pretty eye opening:

Nice Cherry-Picking, Bill.

When I look at just his stats, however, I see a DH with less than 2300 hits and only 309 HRs...in the time he played, IMO, that doesn't add up to HOF, just a tier and a tear below. Being in the top TWO Percent is still pretty damn good!

[Robextend]

I don't think Hoffman had a HOF worthy career, however when you look at Bruce Sutter being in, it's hard to argue. I personally thought Billy Wagner was the more dominant closer for quite a few years...just didn't accumulate the numbers that Hoffman did.

[btcarfagno]

When I look at Edgar Martinez stats, I see someone who, if he had been a shitty fielder, would likely deserve to be in the Hall Of Fame. My problem with potentially voting for him, however, is that, had he been forced to play in the field as well as hit over the years, his offensive stats would likely not have been as good as they were. Are his offensive stats so good that a bit of a dip in them would retain their Hall Of Fame worthiness? I'm not so sure.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

When I look at Edgar Martinez stats, I see someone who, if he had been a shitty fielder, would likely deserve to be in the Hall Of Fame. My problem with potentially voting for him, however, is that, had he been forced to play in the field as well as hit over the years, his offensive stats would likely not have been as good as they were. Are his offensive stats so good that a bit of a dip in them would retain their Hall Of Fame worthiness? I'm not so sure.

Agreed. Also Coors field aside, how can you put Edgar in without Larry Walker? Walker had almost identical numbers + an MVP and 7 gold gloves.

[timn1]

I think to fetishize the "5-tool player" when arguing about the HOF is a bit silly. Players who are genuinely outstanding in all 5 tools come along about once in a generation (Cobb, Speaker, DiMaggio, Mantle, Mays, Griffey Jr, Trout, maybe a few others). And even then, about half the 5-toolers lose their speed by age 30....

Except for those few, almost all players, even the greatest, are MLB average or worse at one or more of these skills. Collins didn't hit for power, Clemente didn't walk (which is one of the REAL 5 tools), Sisler couldn't walk or throw, Gehrig had legs like tree trunks, Ripken couldn't run if his pants were on fire but at least he fielded his position well, which the greatest hitter of all time (or at least second greatest) couldn't be bothered to do. Etc. etc.

If you limited the HOF to true 5-tool players you would have about 10 guys in there (which is what some people around here seem to want).

Like other sports and fields of achievement, baseball has become more ever specialized as it matures. The DH has been around for almost half a century, and the relief ace/closer even longer. If the rules permit that type of specialist player, then to exclude the best of them from the HOF would make the HOF not a fair representation of the game as it's played.

Example: Edgar Martinez played almost 600 games in the field. He wasn't very good at third base but like a lot of 3B, if the DH hadn't existed he would have been moved to 1B and would have been perfectly adequate, like a hundred other pure hitters who wound up at 1B. To penalize him because the DH does exist in the rules is ridiculous.

Check out retrosheet.org. Their WAR-style stat is called BFW. Edgar has a 45.4 career BFW, which is exactly the same as Griffey Jr and higher than about 3/4 of the players in the HOF. Since 2000 only four non-pitchers with a higher BFW have been elected: Boggs, Thomas, Bagwell, and Henderson.

I hope Edgar will get in next year.

[packs]

I think Walker is a HOFer too. But I don't see what defense has to do with anything. Pitchers don't get overlooked for being terrible hitters so I really don't understand this stance where Edgar is less deserving for not playing the field. He was there to hit and no one was better than he was.

Also all this talk about defense has me wondering why none of you guys are out on a limb for Vizquel. He was one of the greatest fielding shortstops of all time and only got a little more than a third of the vote.

[timn1]

That's a pretty big aside!


Walker:
Home .348 .431 .637
Away .278 .370 .495

Martinez
Home .311 .423 .517
Away .312 .412 .514

Originally Posted by Robextend

Agreed. Also Coors field aside, how can you put Edgar in without Larry Walker? Walker had almost identical numbers + an MVP and 7 gold gloves.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

I think Walker is a HOFer too. But I don't see what defense has to do with anything. Pitchers don't get overlooked for being terrible hitters so I really don't understand this stance where Edgar is less deserving for not playing the field. He was there to hit and no one was better than he was.

Also all this talk about defense has me wondering why none of you guys are out on a limb for Vizquel. He was one of the greatest fielding shortstops of all time and only got a little more than a third of the vote.

Vizquel had a high fielding percentage, but he was average defensively. Vizquel averaged 4.62 plays per game. The league average was 4.61. Because of his average range, he is 18th in TZR.

[packs]

That would be a fine analysis unless you saw the guy play. You're going to tell me that anyone watching Vizquel play thought he was anything other than the best fielder in the game? There are two shortstops all time who have won at least 10 gold gloves. Those shortstops Ozzie Smith and Omar Vizquel.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by rats60

Vizquel had a high fielding percentage, but he was average defensively. Vizquel averaged 4.62 plays per game. The league average was 4.61. Because of his average range, he is 18th in TZR.

Not sure if we're looking at different stats, but I see that Vizquel was 5th career in TZR at SS. Only Ozzie, Ripken, Aparicio, and Belanger are ahead...all in the HOF except Belanger who was a poor hitter. I saw Vizquel play several games, and I definitely wouldn't say he had average range.

As for Martinez (mentioned a few posts previously), I don't buy that he wouldn't have hit as well if he had to play defense. Some players don't hit as well if they're sitting on the bench, but they do hit if they're more "in" the game by playing the field. On the other side of the coin, are we assuming that Aaron would have hit 900 homeruns if he could have DH'd his whole career?
Guys, DH is part of the game...has been for many years. Why not put the very best in the Hall?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by kailes2872

I like it!

I am going to start a Jerry Koosman campaign with the vet committee!!

I'll start:

1. He has more wins than Koufax.
2. He has more strikeouts than Koufax.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Nice Cherry-Picking, Bill.

When I look at just his stats, however, I see a DH with less than 2300 hits and only 309 HRs...in the time he played, IMO, that doesn't add up to HOF, just a tier and a tear below. Being in the top TWO Percent is still pretty damn good!

People think cherry-picking is so bad, but I can point to several examples where it was no big deal.