Another Probstein123 black eye

[swarmee]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1176816

[savedfrommyspokes]

Is the grade not for the AUTO that is on the card and not he card itself? Apparently the AUTO got the bump, not the card itself.

[JollyElm]

Made these so people can see what's being talked about. The top cards in each paring are the 'originals' and the bottoms are 'probstein-ized' and swimming in the holder from the trim job...

jordanjamesfront.jpg
jordanjamesback.jpg

The most obvious difference is on the back left, where the '1' in the '15' on the banner is sliced dramatically.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Made these so people can see what's being talked about. The top cards in each paring are the 'originals' and the bottoms are 'probstein-ized' and swimming in the holder from the trim job...

Attachment 300631
Attachment 300632

The most obvious difference is on the back left, where the '1' in the '15' on the banner is sliced dramatically.

Wow, that looks pretty bad IMO. Good think PSA is so trusted and we as collectors put so much blind faith into them printing money...

[texmrsport]

Thank you for posting the pictures. PSA should have done a better job grading the card. Mistakes are made and I hope they correct this one.

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Made these so people can see what's being talked about. The top cards in each paring are the 'originals' and the bottoms are 'probstein-ized' and swimming in the holder from the trim job...

Attachment 300631
Attachment 300632

The most obvious difference is on the back left, where the '1' in the '15' on the banner is sliced dramatically.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Made these so people can see what's being talked about. The top cards in each paring are the 'originals' and the bottoms are 'probstein-ized' and swimming in the holder from the trim job...

Attachment 300631
Attachment 300632

The most obvious difference is on the back left, where the '1' in the '15' on the banner is sliced dramatically.

But how do you explain that there is more of Lebron's hand and finger
on the back of the supposed trimmed one, almost the same amount
of difference as the 1 on the banner. The gold border and ornamental
design looks completely different on the fronts I thought that was the scans
but then it looks like two different backs with a slight shift difference on them. Something seems odd about the whole thing.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Pat R

But how do you explain that there is more of Lebron's hand and finger

If you look at the first card, part of the side of the card is obscured by the PSA clear prong on the side with the finger. If you compare the autographs on the front, there is no question they are the exact same card. If they made slight variations of this set that were both #/25 (one silver and one gold or something), the guys at Blowout would know.

Yes, there's a lot of exaggerated anger there, but they are great at spotting and outing cases of fraud.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by swarmee

If you look at the first card, part of the side of the card is obscured by the PSA clear prong on the side with the finger. If you compare the autographs on the front, there is no question they are the exact same card. If they made slight variations of this set that were both #/25 (one silver and one gold or something), the guys at Blowout would know.

Yes, there's a lot of exaggerated anger there, but they are great at spotting and outing cases of fraud.

Yeah I considered that but it looks like on the upper right that isn't
obscured that there is more black showing from the white rail to the border
on the 9 too but it must be because of the scans vs photo's.

Jordan-Lebron Back.jpg

[Rookiemonster]

On the original the top left corner on the back is dinged.but not in the newly graded card.
Also as pointed out ( pun intended) there is more of lebrons pointer finger showing.


I think this card has been rebacked.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

On the original the top left corner on the back is dinged.but not in the newly graded card.
Also as pointed out ( pun intended) there is more of lebrons pointer finger showing.


I think this card has been rebacked.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/Baseball-/2...942%2529&rt=nc here is a link to a previous sold card numbered to 25 same card. The back to this card looks like the original PSA7. Top left corner ding and less Lebron hand then the psa 9.


We all have seen very gifted custom card made and advertised. I think someone with those skill and make a new back for this card.

[MattyC]

So despite all the Blowout Sturm und Drang, the facts seem to be: a trimmed card got past the goalie and wound up in a slab, and then on eBay.

I think as some have rightly and calmly pointed out here, to rectify this situation PSA should be contacted, and if they feel the card is a mistake, they will contact the seller, who will pull it. They also have a policy in place which allows for the buyer of the trimmed card to be reimbursed.

Seems pretty straightforward to me, in terms of how to rationally handle the situation. I don't know about a "black eye" for a high volume internet seller for merely listing the item; I don't do that for a living, yet I don't expect someone in that position to scrutinize this particular card for trimming, or somehow decide to track down a scan of the card in a prior holder, and find the trim job. It seems like a flat out mistake by the grader, and human error happens. When it does, if there's a path and process to correct it, we simply should walk that path and then see if we achieve a solution. If I were the seller I would contact PSA and initiate the process.

[Exhibitman]

I’m with Probstein on this one. If PSA screwed up PSA needs to fix it. Probstein is selling PSA’s opinion, not his own.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by MattyC

So despite all the Blowout Sturm und Drang, the facts seem to be: a trimmed card got past the goalie and wound up in a slab, and then on eBay.

I think as some have rightly and calmly pointed out here, to rectify this situation PSA should be contacted, and if they feel the card is a mistake, they will contact the seller, who will pull it. They also have a policy in place which allows for the buyer of the trimmed card to be reimbursed.

Seems pretty straightforward to me, in terms of how to rationally handle the situation. I don't know about a "black eye" for a high volume internet seller for merely listing the item; I don't do that for a living, yet I don't expect someone in that position to scrutinize this particular card for trimming, or somehow decide to track down a scan of the card in a prior holder, and find the trim job. It seems like a flat out mistake by the grader, and human error happens. When it does, if there's a path and process to correct it, we simply should walk that path and then see if we achieve a solution. If I were the seller I would contact PSA and initiate the process.

Well said and I completely agree...I think this just shows what CAN get by PSA, no TPG should be the end all-be all and common sense and knowledge still can go a long ways in the hobby.

[seablaster]

Originally Posted by Pat R

But how do you explain that there is more of Lebron's hand and finger
on the back of the supposed trimmed one, almost the same amount
of difference as the 1 on the banner. The gold border and ornamental
design looks completely different on the fronts I thought that was the scans
but then it looks like two different backs with a slight shift difference on them. Something seems odd about the whole thing.

The earlier images of the card are photos, not scans. The Lebron finger/hand concerned me as well when you mentioned it, but if you go to the Blowout thread, the images are larger and it's easier to see.

It's the same card in my opinion...minus a portion of that edge that is.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Pat R

[/B]

But how do you explain that there is more of Lebron's hand and finger
on the back of the supposed trimmed one, almost the same amount
of difference as the 1 on the banner. The gold border and ornamental
design looks completely different on the fronts I thought that was the scans
but then it looks like two different backs with a slight shift difference on them. Something seems odd about the whole thing.

Well, if I'm reading what you are saying correctly, it seems the angle of the picture plus the bright flash is adding to distorting his hand area. You can see the flash on the case right next to the area in question. Since the original bumped corner was the upper left on back, it appears they trimmed the top just a teeny bit and the left side more substantially. James shouldn't show any signs of trimming, as he is situated in the wrong place.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Pat R

[/B]

But how do you explain that there is more of Lebron's hand and finger
on the back of the supposed trimmed one, almost the same amount
of difference as the 1 on the banner. The gold border and ornamental
design looks completely different on the fronts I thought that was the scans
but then it looks like two different backs with a slight shift difference on them. Something seems odd about the whole thing.

I agree, maybe both sides were trimmed on the "9?"
Finger does look off...

[clydepepper]

probstein is DEAD to me

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

probstein is DEAD to me

Ray, I know that Mr. Big (Rick P.) hates to hear that... I hear your grief big time!! Meanwhile, he's laughing his ass off....

[Jenx34]

Okay, I read the thread on blowout. Am I missing something? In that whole thread all they do is bitch about Probstein and PSA. They bitch about how Probstein handled it. But in Probstein's response, isn't he pretty much saying is if it is graded incorrectly PSA needs to step in? So while Probstein should perhaps do a little investigating himself and contact PSA, it seems pretty obvious to me if the OP wants to do anything he should complain to and send pictures to PSA. Nowhere in that thread does it say PSA has been contacted.

I'm sure there are many more nuances to this, but I can see a consignor taking the PSA grade at face value and not seeing it as their responsibility to question it. Granted if it were me, I'd certainly ask a few questions.

I guess the thread bugged me because it went on to bash PSA about handing out 10's like candy and referenced a PSA 10 Aaron Rodgers that looks off-center. I looked at several of those cards, graded and raw and EVERY ONE of them was cut the same way, including a BGS 9.5 Gem Mint. I'm not a member there so I made no comments. But to me, the thread was a bunch of mostly misplaced criticism.

I'm not absolving Probstein of all responsibility, but it seems to me the way to get it fixed is to contact PSA and let them investigate and contact Probstein. Just my $.02

[drcy]

An auction house should ultimately be responsible for the authenticity, and I question auction houses that defer to outside services when a spade is obviously a spade. This is too common in this hobby.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by drcy

An auction house should ultimately be responsible for the authenticity, and I question auction houses that defer to outside services when a spade is obviously a spade. This is too common in this hobby.

An emphatic +1.

[esd10]

It seems like these big spenders with psa can basically buy the grade they want with little issue.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by esd10

It seems like these big spenders with psa can basically buy the grade they want with little issue.

1.How do you know if the person submitting this card to PSA was a big spender? Did the consignor submit it or did Probstein?
2. In general, what evidence do you have that big spenders get higher grades?

[esd10]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

1.How do you know if the person submitting this card to PSA was a big spender? Did the consignor submit it or did Probstein?
2. In general, what evidence do you have that big spenders get higher grades?

Psa was founded on a lie with the worst kept secret in the hobby the t206 wagner card and you dont think a person who spends tons money with psa like a auction house doesnt get a couple grading bumps for the amount of cash spent and notoriety they receive? I think they do