T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Enjoy the challenge of collecting T206's by their backs ? Let's start with the toughest of the tough regular issue T206's....the BROAD LEAF 460 cards. These cards were printed
ONLY on subjects in the 350/460 series. And, just 35 subjects (of the 63 subjects) in 350/460 series were printed with the BROAD LEAF 460 backs. Furthermore, these same 35
subjects were printed with the rare red HINDU backs.

Near the end of the T206 press runs (circa late 1910-early 1911), American Lithographic separated the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series into 2 print groups (refer to Post #8).
Shown here are the 35 subjects printed with the BROAD LEAF 460 back......


Group A
.








Listed here are the 29 subjects which have been confirmed with the BROAD LEAF 460 back......

Baker
M. Brown (Chicago)
Cobb (red portrait)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Magee (bat)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)

Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
Cy Young (glove)


Listed here are 6 subjects from this group that have yet to be discovered with BL 460 backs.
I expect these T206's will eventually be found with BL 460 backs......

Ames (hands above head)
Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Larry Doyle (bat)



NOTE....that the 460-only series subjects were NOT printed with the BROAD LEAF 460 back.


If you have them, show them....never tire of seeing BROAD LEAF 460 cards.


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Ted, here's my one and only. Note: this is an old scan. The card now resides in a PSA holder.


scan0010.jpg

scan0011.jpg

[tedzan]

Hi Sean

" It Don't Come Easy....you know, it don't come easy " (Ringo Starr, 1971)

We get these BROAD LEAF's in what ever shape their in....cannot afford to be "picky"....this one was mine (traded it recently).









Let's see some more BL 460's....condition is immaterial.



TED Z
.

[rjackson44]

I love reading anything ted posts makes my day.

[tedzan]

rjackson44

I appreciate your compliments.

Stayed tuned, more T206 info will be forthcoming.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Continuing on the BROAD LEAF 460 theme, this Feb 2006 thread.... T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards is one of the very first (if not the first) to be posted on this subject on Net54.

Check-it-out, it's quite an interesting thread......especially, Art Martineau's post (#35) in which he identifies 26 of the 27 subjects we now know of with BROAD LEAF 460 backs.



. OK, I'll try again....if you got them, show off your BROAD LEAF 460 cards. They certainly are a fine credit to anyone's T206 collection.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *




. < < 1st Issue ............ Issued 1980 > >



Here is the 1st issue (1962) of The Sport Hobbyist. Charles Brooks and Frank Nagy were it's co-founders. Most of us old-timers have fond memories of Frank Nagy.
Frank ran a mail auction for many decades. I saved his interesting notes (from early 1980's) which he would include with the cards won from his auction. Example:
he would often reduce the amount of your winning bid because the closest bid to it was considerably less than yours. Now, how can you beat that ?
Frank's auction stuff was very eclectic, 19th Century - 1970's cards (all sports and non-sports). I recall winning T206 (Ex) commons for $1 - $2 each. And Cobb's,
Lajoie's, Matty's, and CYoung's, etc. for less than $10 each.

In 1980, Bill Heitman's book "The Monster" was available. This 28-page book was an awesome reference for us guys new to the world of T206's. It provided us a
better understanding of the complexities of this set; and, also enlightened us and motivated us to go after the elusive rare T206 backs.

Having said all this....can you imagine how some of us on this forum were pleasantly surprised in early 2005 when Bill Heitman responded to this Net54 thread....
Possible Heitman Errors

Here are some more threads that Bill subsequently chimed in on......

T207 Davis blue C

T206 Rare Backs

REFLECTIONS of YOUTH

Collecting Exclusive Series of the T206 Set

rarest tobacco card ?

And, here's a thread dated March 2007, where Bill chimed in regarding the Wagner strip...... A T206 printing question for Bill Heitman, or anyone ?


I have some more responses from Bill around the 2005 - 2007 time period. I will add them later.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





The stylistic design of the CAROLINA BRIGHTS (CB) backs is one of the best of all the T-brands. American Litho printed these backs during their 350-only series press runs.
My research indicates that 132 subjects were printed with the CB backs.

Our Net54 resident expert on the CB's is Brian Weisner....perhaps he may chime in here and share with us his knowledge.

The CAROLINA BRIGHTS cigarettes were manufactured in Wilson, NC....click on this link for a picture of the factory.... CAROLINA BRIGHTS factory


Here are my CAROLINA BRIGHTS cards (I traded Clymer to Brian Weisner some years ago). How about posting some of your CB's here ?

.


.



To date, 128 subjects have been confirmed with CAROLINA BRIGHTS.

Abbott
Abstein
Anderson
Arrelanes
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Barry (A's)
Barry (Milwaukee)
Batch
Beck
Bender (trees)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burke
Burns

Bush
Campbell
Carr
Casey
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chappelle
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Clark
Clymer
Cobb (portrait-red)
Collins (A's)
Collins (Minneapolis)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Demmitt (New York)
Dineen

Downey (fielding)
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Dygert
Easterly
Egan
Evans
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Freeman
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Grimshaw
Groom

Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hofman
Hulswitt
Jackson
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Kisinger
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lattimore
Lavender
Livingstone
Lord
Lundgren (KC)

Maddox
Maloney
Mathewson (dark cap)
Mattern
McAleese
McCormick
McGann
McGinnity
McGlynn
McLean
Miller (Pittsburg)
Milligan
Murray (bat)
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes
Oberlin
Pfeister
Phillippe
Pickering

Purtell
Puttman
Quillen
Quinn
Rhodes
Rudolph
Schlafly
Schreck
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe
Slagle
Smith (Buffalo)
Speaker
Stanage
Stephens
Strang
Sweeney (Boston)
Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor

Thomas
Titus
Unglaub
Warhop
White (Buffalo)
Wilson
Wright
Zimmerman


This list is still a work in progress. We are nearing completion, as there are only a few more new CAROLINA BRIGHTS to be discovered.

Recognition goes to Brian Weisner and Art Martineau, who have researched the CAROLINA BRIGHTS cards for many, many years.


TED Z
.

[rats60]

Highest graded Pop 2

[tedzan]

Great looking Carolina Brights McAleese.

Thanks for posting it, guy.


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

I'd like to post some pictures but I feel like i'm always the under bidder. So, I don't have any to show. I would really like my first CB to be a Hal Chase Blue Portrait.

[tedzan]

Hi Ron

We may be in for a "fight" for the blue Chase with a Carolina Brights back

Currently, my blue Chase run includes 21 different T206 backs......the 2 missing backs in this run are CAROLINA BRIGHTS and DRUM.

Here is my very 1st blue Chase card (acquired in 1981)......

.



And, here is my more recent blue Chase acquisition (2016)......

.


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Ron

We may be in for a "fight" for the blue Chase with a Carolina Brights back

Currently, my blue Chase run includes 21 different T206 backs......the 2 missing backs in this run are CAROLINA BRIGHTS and DRUM.

Here is my very 1st blue Chase card (acquired in 1981)......

.



And, here is my more recent blue Chase acquisition (2016)......

.


TED Z
.

Very nice Red Hindu. I still need many of the tougher backs such as Broad Leaf's, Carolina Brights, Coupon Type 1, Cycle 460, Drum, Hindu Red, and Lenox's. My first Blue Chase, a PSA 4 Piedmont 42 was acquired in early 2011.

[tedzan]

Hi Ron

Here's my PIEDMONT 460/42 blue Chase.

All my Pd/42 cards are printed with the light blue ink. Do you have any of them with the dark blue ink ?


.


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Here's one Ted:



scan0014.jpg

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Ron

Here's my PIEDMONT 460/42.

All my Pd/42 cards are printed with the light blue ink. Do you have any of them with the dark blue ink ?


..


TED Z
.

Hi Ted, I have two with the darker ink. One is Rube Marquard Pitching Follow Through, and the other is Arlie Latham.

[Pat R]

One lighter blue and one dark blue.
img274.jpg
img273.jpg

[tedzan]

Hey guys,

Pardon me for having a "senior moment". I forgot about the trimmed PIEDMONT 460/42 cards that I have stashed away in the archives.
Obviously, they are the dark blue ink variety.





And, here are two more dark blue cards......


.



.



And, two semi-dark blue ones......

.




With the exception of Chase (who is part of my blue Chase run), I've traded (or sold) most of my PIEDMONT factory #42 cards.


.


And, I do recall that I sold this Latham to Adam G.


.



TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

It's interesting to see light and dark ink variations of the same cards. I know it was talked about in a post years ago. I wonder if there's a dark ink variation of blue portrait Hal Chase. I've only seen light ink variations on his card.

[Pat R]

You can find light and dark variations in all the series with piedmonts, maybe not as often or pronounced as the 42's but the biggest variation in color
are found on the Polar Bears.
polar bear - Copy (2).jpg

[tedzan]

Hey guys,

Thanks for posting your PIEDMONT 42 cards. We have a Baker P42 card with a light blue back and another with a dark blue back. It reminds me of a theory which
I posted years ago regarding PIEDMONT 42 and UZIT cards.

Oh No ! Another "Ted T206 theory". Do they ever end ?

Anyway, PIEDMONT 42 and UZIT backs have very similar blue ink variations. Which leaves me to believe that these two backs were printed simultaneously. We do
have evidence that the UZIT backs were printed and issued in Feb-Mar 1911. This timeline is consistent with ATC's transfer of the Piedmont Cigarette production to
the Liggett & Myers Factory (#42) in Durham, NC.


Here's my two UZIT examples of varying blue ink intensity......

.

. .


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Double post.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

Sorry I have been AWOL for quite a while.

Interesting theory about P42/Uzit light/dark blue.

Did I miss something w/r/t P42 confirmations?

Are there differences in confirmations between light/dark P42? If so, perhaps a separate checklist is warranted (like Sov 350 Apple/Forest Green).

We could even come up with a name like baby/royal blue (although I hate the term "baby") that emphasizes the difference. That's part of the fun!

Scot

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

This is my current checklist. Do you have any other 460-only series guys to add to this list from your surveys ?

Originally Posted by tedzan

With the recent discovery of Tinker (bat off shoulder) the confirmed total now is 72 subjects with the PIEDMONT 460, factory #42 back.







PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 confirmed list..............72 subjects

350/460 Series............63 subjects (complete)

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)

Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)

Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)



460-only Series............9 subjects

Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Other Net54 sources claim that the following 4 subjects are confirmed.

Chance (batting)
Bergen (catching)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)

My research indicates that these 4 subjects are PIEDMONT 460, factory #42 No-Prints.



TED Z
.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Ted,



We could even come up with a name like baby/royal blue (although I hate the term "baby")

Scot

Hey Scot, that's exactly what my girlfriend calls my Plank: the Baby Blue Plank. And I hate that term as well.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted and Sean,

Nothing to add to Ted's P42 list.

I keep thinking I have seen Murray (Portrait) P42 some time in the distant past but you know how the mind can play tricks about such things. I'm probably confusing it with Schlei (Portrait) or Seymour (Portrait).

Scot

[tedzan]

I too, some years back thought I has seen a PIEDMONT 460/42 of Murray (portrait).

Since then, though, I realize I was mistaken.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * *


. .


Connie Mack was a staunch anti-tobacco guy, who did not want his image portrayed on tobacco cards. **

Here's his E96 card. And, of course he can be found on various E-type cards. One of notoriety is the E104-1 set which features the 1910 World Champions A's.
Connie Mack was quite thrilled about this set of cards, as is noted in his Biography **. The same printing firm also produced the Cullivan's Fireside (T208) set,
which of course is a tobacco issue.

Connie Mack recruited most of his ballplayers from College. He felt they had better training and they could think better than players from the farm system. He
would often personally scout the College guys, or his brother (Tom) would.


** Note....Connie Mack (and the Early Years of Baseball), Norman Macht

Hey guys

I highly recommend this book. While reading it, you'll imagine the guys in your T206 set come alive. Almost every player from that era is covered in this book.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * *




. .

Connie Mack recruited most of his ballplayers from College. He felt they had better training and they could think better than players from the farm system.
Jack Coombs is a perfect example of Connie's recruiting style. Jack was a 4 sport (baseball, basketball, football and track) athlete at Colby College (Maine).
Tom Mack (Connie's brother) scouted Jack during his College days. In his senior year (1905), Jack signed with the A's. His first 4 years, Jack's pitching record
was unimpressive. Then in 1910, Jack's W-L record was an amazing 31-9 with 1.30 ERA. Furthermore, he won 3 games in the World Series defeating the Cubs.

In the Fall of 1910, American Lithographic was designing their 460-only series cards; therefore, why didn't they include Jack Coombs in this series ? Given, the
tremendous year he had. I do not really understand why he is missing in the T206 set.

Incidentally, Coombs won 28 games in 1911, and 21 games in 1912. WOW !....80 games won in 3 consecutive years. **

Is that a record, or what ?


Incidentally, for whatever reason, Jack Coombs is not featured in the E104-1 set, nor the 1910 Cullivan's Fireside (T208) set, both of which feature the 1910
World Champions A's. The same printing firm produced both of these sets.


** ....Connie Mack (and the Early Years of Baseball), Norman Macht


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * *


Shoeless Joe Jackson

.




Connie Mack recruited Joe Jackson in 1908, and Joe started with the Philadelphia A's in Sept 1908. Joe's style just did not fit in with the "College Boys" on the A's.
Part of the problem (believe it, or not) was that some Americans were still "fighting" the Civil War. Check-out the players in your T206 set and you'll discover that
very few of them were from the "deep South". Of course Cobb is one of these few Southerners. But, Cobb was sort of a unique dude. **

Joe played in only 10 games for the A's (1908 & 1909). Connie Mack traded Joe to Cleveland in July 1910. 1911 was Joe's 1st full Major Lge. season (147 games).
Joe was amazing....233 Hits for a .403 BA. So, the real question to any one on this forum is....why wasn't Joe in subsequent T-card sets ? We know that American
Lithographic (ALC) was introducing T205 cards as late as the Fall/Winter of 1911. But, where was Shoeless Joe ? ?

Then in 1912, I would think ALC would have included Joe in their T202 set. But hold it for a moment....is this Joe in this T202 centerfold sliding into 3rd base ?



** ....Connie Mack (and the Early Years of Baseball), Norman Macht


Smoky Joe Wood

Info forthcoming....stay tuned.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * *


Smoky Joe Wood

From 1908 - 1910, Smoky Joe's performance pitching for Boston (AL) was less than impressive. Nevertheless, during this timeframe American Lithographic
was planning, designing, and printing the 388 different subjects for the T206 set. They included Smoky Joe's battery mates (Bill Carrigan & Tubby Spencer)
in the T206 set....but no Joe.
Interestingly, Smoky Joe is even featured in the 1909 American Caramel (E91-C) set. So, I really don't understand why he was not included in the T206 set.
Anyone on this forum have any thoughts regarding this omission ?

Wood won 23 games in 1911. Then followed it up with a 34-5 W-L record with a 1.91 ERA in that "magical" year of 1912. Furthermore, Joe single-handedly
beat the NY Giants in the World Series, winning 3 games (the final game in relief).

I traded my T207 Joe Wood card quite a few years ago (my regret)....so I don't have a card of him to display. I'd appreciate if some one here would post a
Joe Wood card.


TED Z
.

[frohme]

Per your request, Ted.

[tedzan]

Hi Mike

Your T207 Joe Wood is a beauty.

Thanks very much for posting it.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



350/460 series subjects


The POLAR BEAR tobacco brand was produced in Middletown, Ohio. See Factory #6 in post #5, courtesy of Craig Wright.... POLAR BEAR factory..Middletown, Ohio
The POLAR BEAR cards were printed at American Litho in NYC, and shipped to the Middletown plant to be inserted in POLAR BEAR tobacco packs.

The cards of Demmitt and O'Hara provide us an insight into the timeline when the POLAR BEAR (PB) cards where initially introduced. The New York versions of Demmitt
and O'Hara are 350-only series subjects, which were printed prior to the POLAR BEAR press runs. Demmitt and O'Hara were traded during the off-season. Both started
the 1910 season with their respective St Louis teams. By May 1910, both of them were re-assigned to the Eastern League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to Toronto.

The St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara are printed ONLY with the POLAR BEAR back. Therefore, it's fair to conclude that the 1st press runs of PB cards occurred
during the Summer of 1910.





Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards



There has been some debate as to which series these St Louis variations were printed in ? One school of thought says the Demmitt and O'Hara were included in the 1st
press runs when the 350-only series cards were printed. Another school of thought says that they were printed along during the 2nd press runs with the 350/460 cards.

Apparently, American Litho started their 1st press run of the PB cards circa Summer of 1910. ALC printed the PB backs on 138 subjects of the 350-only series.

The 2nd press run (circa Summer/Fall of 1910) was a major one. ALC printed PB backs on the 60 subjects from the 350/460 Series. It's my contention, that ALC printed
the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations in this PB press run.

Furthermore, these PB press runs of 60 subjects (or 66 subjects, if we include the 6 super-prints) were printed in greater quantities than the 350-only series printing of
PB cards. Proof of this theory is evident in T206 surveys, POP report data, and everyday Ebay listings of PB cards.

Finally, I would estimate that there are at approx. 300 cards each of the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations currently in circulation. What is your guesstimate ?

OK, having said all this, I'm open to hearing your ideas on this subject ?


To date, my checklist indicates 250 subjects have been confirmed with the POLAR BEAR backs.
The following lists these cards according to their respective T206 series.

350-only Series..................138 subjects

Abbott
Adkins
Anderson
Arellanes
Armbruster
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Barry (A's)
Barry (Milwaukee)
Batch
Beck
Beckley
Bescher (portrait)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell

Burke
Bush
Carr
Carrigan
Casey
Chappelle
Clancy
Clark
Clymer
Collins (Milwaukee)
Congalton
Cravath
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dessau
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Dygert
Easterly

Egan
Engle
Evans
Ferguson
Fiene (portrait)
Flanagan
Freeman
Fromme
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Grimshaw
Groom
Hallman
Hayden
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)

Hofman
Howard (Chicago)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Kisinger
Kleinow (New York-catching)
Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)
Kroh
Kruger
LaPorte
Lattimore
Lavender
Livingstone
Lord
Maddox

Maloney
Mattern
McGann
McGinnity
McGlynn
McLean
Merritt
Milan
Milligan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Moeller
Moran (Chicago)
Moriarty
Mullen (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Nattress
Oakes
O'Brien
O'Neill
Perring

Pfeister (seated)
Phelps
Phillippe
Pickering
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen
Quinn
Randall
Raymond
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm
Schlafly
Schreck
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe

Shaw (Providence)
Slagle
Smith (Chicago, white cap)
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Stanage
Strang
Jessie Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thielman
Titus
Unglaub
Warhop
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wright
Irv Young


350/460 series...................58 subjects [plus Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations]

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Harry Davis (A's)
Demmitt (St Louis American)..........included in this print run
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)

Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Hara (St Louis Nat'l)....................included in this print run
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)

Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)


460-only Series..................46 subjects

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand at waist}

Hummel
Lake, St. Louis (ball)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)

H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Six Super-Prints

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Ted, I disagree with classifying Demmitt and O'Hara as 350/460 series
they're 350 only subjects.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The cards of Demmitt and O'Hara provide us an insight into the timeline when the POLAR BEAR (PB) cards where initially introduced. The New York versions of Demmitt
and O'Hara are 350-only series subjects, which were printed prior to the POLAR BEAR press runs. Demmitt and O'Hara were traded in the off-season. Both started
the 1910 season with their respective St Louis teams. By May 1910, both of them were re-assigned to the Eastern League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to Toronto.

TED Z

Pat

I have very clearly stated that the Demmitt and O'Hara (New York variations) are 350-only subjects. And, I'm NOT "classifying" the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations
as "350/460 series subjects". I am simply proposing that (with respect to the POLAR BEAR runs) they were printed on the same sheet as the 350/460 series subjects.


My research indicates that the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations could NOT have been printed in the 1st press run of the POLAR BEAR cards with the 350-only subjects.
Several surveys have confirmed this fact, because the quantities of POLAR BEAR cards in this press run are relatively low. Whereas, the subsequent press runs of 350/460 sub-
jects were printed with much greater quantities of POLAR BEAR backs. Quantities which are consistent with the numbers of known Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) cards.
Therefore, with respect to the POLAR BEAR population, the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations timeline is very likely circa..Summer/Fall 1910.

I have qualified my 350/460 series Checklist, which I've included the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations, to note that these 2 subjects were also printed with this group.


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

Interesting theory on the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations. I agree that the population numbers are more in line with the 350/460 print group. The sad reality is it makes these two key cards which many consider their base set complete at 518 cards without them, the two most common Polar Bear cards out of the 250 different Polar Bears issued.

I'm currently working on a Polar Bear Back subset. I have about 20 to go. I recommend this subset to others. It is a challenge to put together but not impossible. There really isn't any one card difficult (I don't count Dopner in the set) but the difficulty does follow the print groups. During my journey I can say that Print Group 460 is most difficult and Print Group 350 is a bit more easy. Print Group 350/460 cards are almost always available. Polar Bears are condition rare so for a real challenge, a PSA 4/SGC 50 or higher set would keep you busy. One last thing about the Polar Bear subset is once your done, your nearly 50 percent complete of a 524 card T206 set.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *



. .
350/460 series subjects



Hi Ron

I'm impressed, 230 - POLAR BEAR's....that's quite an achievement.


I will tell you of the other factor (besides the large population of the 350/460 series POLAR BEAR cards) that led me to thinking that American Litho
must of printed Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis variations) in the 350/460 press run.

Check-out my concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement ** of the Sovereign 66 subjects which I like to refer to as the "phantom 350/460 series".

Consider this: Joe Doyle and Bob Rhoades had retired prior to this POLAR BEAR press run. So, those 2 guys are removed and replaced by Demmitt
and O'Hara (St Louis) cards. I say it may have been as simple as that.

As Mel Allen (great ole sportscaster) would say "How's about that ?



v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v .................................................v Joe Doyle v (2nd row down)






.................................................. .................................................. ^ Rhoades ^ (above Wilhelm)



** Note I have shown the 6 super-prints Double-Printed on this arrangement because several large surveys have indicated as such.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Ted, In my opinion the Demmitt and O'Hara populations are in line with
many of the 350 series commons.

The majority of the Demmitt and O'Hara's would be graded even in lower grades because of their value while most of the lower grade PB commons wouldn't.

There are 111 Demmitts and 101 O'Hara's in the PSA pop reports. There are several 350 series PB commons
in the 25-30 pop report range with Fred Beck having the most at 37.
On ebay there are four becks and three of the four are ungraded, while
you seldom see an ungraded Demmitt or O'Hara's for sale.

Of the 111 Demmitt's 37 are lower than a two (1 out of 3) and 29 out of the 101 O'Hara's ( 1 out of 3.4) are below a 2.
Only 3 of the 37 (1 out of 12+) of the becks are lower than a 2.

[tedzan]

Pat

With all due respect....where are you getting your numbers ?

There is absolutely no comparison with 350-only series PB pop #'s vs 350/460 series PB pop #'s.
For example......

DEMMITT.....230 (approx.)

O'HARA........255 (approx.)

350/460 series

COBB red.....232

COBB bat.....141


350-only series

Speaker.........78

Beckley..........54

Bresnahan......51

McGinnity.......46


Furthermore, information from Scot's 100,000+ survey support what I have stated regarding
the differences in printing quantities of PB cards vs 350-only, 350/360. and 460-only series.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

With all due respect....where are you getting your numbers ?

There is absolutely no comparison with 350-only series PB pop #'s vs 350/460 series PB pop #'s.
For example......

DEMMITT.....230 (approx.)

O'HARA........255 (approx.)

350/460 series

COBB red.....232

COBB bat.....141


350-only series

Speaker.........78

Beckley..........54

Bresnahan......51

McGinnity.......46


Furthermore, information from Scot's 100,000+ survey support what I have stated regarding
the differences in printing quantities of PB cards vs 350-only, 350/360. and 460-only series.


TED Z
.

Ted, I agree that the pop #'s are definitely higher in the 350/460 series
compared to the 350 series Polar Bears.

The numbers I provided were from the PSA Polar Bear pop reports comparing the Demmitt and O'Hara to Fred Beck who is also from the 350 series,

Here are the combined PSA and SGC #'s

Demmitt 231 total with 93 lower than a grade of 2 (A , 1 or 1.5) = 1 out of 2.4 below a 2

O'Hara 217 total 80 below a 2 = 1 out of 2.7 below a 2

Beck 56 total 7 below a 2 = 1 out of 8 below a 2

To me this is in line with what I would expect considering how many Demmitt
and O'Hara's would be graded compared to Beck.

Wouldn't you agree that Demmitt and O'Hara would be 3 or 4 times more
likely to be graded than a Fred Beck Polar Bear?

[Ronnie73]

I figured that I would post population totals of Polar Bears for HOF's graded by PSA and SGC combined, broken down in print groups. Now I already know that these are just numbers and who knows what has been broken out and re-graded, or what backs are on the graded cards before PSA cared to identify them, or that quantities of cards are not counted from SGC because it was before they were keeping track of player pose. The purpose of this is to show a current average of cards across the print groups at this time.

I chose HOF's because they are more likely to be graded than a common player.

PRINT GROUP 2 (350 SERIES)
BECKLEY - 55
BRESNAHAN - BATTING - 49
COLLINS, JIMMY - 58
KELLEY - 60
MCGINNITY - 47
SPEAKER - 69

PRINT GROUP 3 (350-460 SERIES)
BAKER - 133
BENDER - NO TREES - 87
BROWN - CHICAGO ON SHIRT - 141
COBB - BAT OFF - 141
CRAWFORD - WITH BAT - 81
GRIFFITH - BATTING - 108
JENNINGS - ONE HAND - 92
JENNINGS - TWO HANDS - 50
JOHNSON - GLOVE AT CHEST - 155
JOSS - HANDS AT CHEST - 170
LAJOIE - WITH BAT - 125
TINKER - BAT OFF - 67
WILLIS - BATTING - 61
WILLIS - THROWING - 97
YOUNG - WITH GLOVE - 149

PRINT GROUP 4 (460 SERIES)
CHANCE - BATTING - 24
DUFFY - 38
MARQUARD - PITCHING - 78
MCGRAW - GLOVE AT HIP - 37
MCGRAW - PORTRAIT WIT CAP - 34
TINKER - BAT ON - 29
WHEAT - 39

PRINT GROUP 5 (SUPER PRINTS)
CHANCE - YELLOW PORTRAIT - 155
COBB - RED PORTRAIT - 272
EVERS - CHICAGO ON SHIRT - 132
MATHEWSON - DARK CAP - 188

[tedzan]

Hey T206 set collectors,

Searching for an affordable Demmitt (St Louis) card ?

You might consider a T213-2 Demmitt....the image is exactly the same....if you don't mind the blue caption and it's different team name

There is usually one for sale on ebay for about $100 - 200. Just think of the $$$$ you save....you can spend it on more T206's.


.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *






Pardon me for starting this OLD MILL post by first showing you my very first T206 card which I acquired in 1981 at the famous Willow Grove (PA) Show......but, I'm proud of it.

...besides Walter Johnson, Chase is my favorite player from the deadball era.


OLD MILL backs are tricky. They are tough to find on certain 150/350 series subjects. For example....


OLD MILL's are more available on subjects in the 350-only series. And, OLD MILL's are most available on subjects in the 350/460 series. OLD MILL'S get somewhat tougher
to find on subjects in the 460-only series.

Furthermore, the Exclusive 12 subjects in this latter series are very, very difficult to find with OLD MILL backs......






I do not recall of any major finds of T206 OLD MILL (Major Leaguer) cards. Does any one on this forum know of any ? If so, please chime in and tell us of them.
In recent years, Mark Macrae acquired an original T206 collection located in the Northwest. It included a fairly large number of OLD MILL cards. If I recall these
cards were all from the 350/460 series, and 460-only series.



.



To date....309 black OLD MILL Major League subjects have been confirmed.
They are listed here as a function of their respective T206 series.


150/350 Series..................123 subjects

Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Alperman
Ames (portrait)
Ball (New York)
Bates
Beaumont
Bell (hands over head)
Bender (portrait)
Bergen (bat)
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bransfield
Bridwell (portrait-no cap)
Bresnahan (portrait)
M. Brown (portrait)
Camnitz (arms folded)
Chance (red portrait)
Chase (pink portrait)
Chase (white cap)
Chesbro

Cicotte
Clarke (portrait)
JJ Clarke
Cobb (green)
Cobb (bat on shoulder)
Conroy (fielding)
Coveleski
Crandall (no cap)
Crawford (throwing)
Criss
George Davis (Chicago)
Harry Davis (A's)
Delehanty (Washington)
Donlin (seated)
Donovan (portrait)
Doolin
Dougherty (portrait)
Durham
Evers (portrait)
Ferris

Flick
Ganley
Gibson
Gilbert
Goode
Griffith (portrait)
Hahn
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Isbell
Jacklitsch
Jennings (portrait)
Johnson (portrait)
F. Jones (portrait)
F. Jones (hands at hips)
Jordan (portrait)
Joss (portrait)
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)

Killian (pitching)
Kleinow (bat)
Kling
Konetchy (glove high)
Lajoie (portrait)
Lajoie (throwing)
Lake (New York)
Leach (portrait)
Leifield (pitching)
Liebhardt
Lobert
Lumley
Magee (portrait)
Manning (bat)
Marquard (hands at side)
Mathewson (portrait)
Mathewson (white cap)
McGraw (portrait-no cap)
McGraw (pointing)
McIntyre (Brooklyn)

McQuillan (ball in hand)
Merkle (portrait)
Murphy (throwing)
Nicholls (hands on knees)
Niles
Oldring (fielding)
O'Leary (portrait)
Overall (portrait)
Owen
Parent
Pastorius
Powell
Ritchey
Rucker (portrait)
Schlei (catching)
Schmidt (throwing)
Sheckard (no glove)
Shipke
F. Smith (Chicago)
Spade

Stahl (no glove)
Steinfeldt (portrait)
Stone
Stovall (portrait)
Sullivan
L Tannehill (Chicago)
Tenney
Tinker (portrait)
Tinker (hands on knees)
Turner
Waddell (portrait)
Waddell (throwing)
Wagner (bat on left)
Wallace
Walsh
Weimer
Doc White (portrait)
Wilhelm (hands at chest)
Williams
Willis (portrait)

Wiltse (portrait-no cap)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)


350-only Series..................76 subjects

Abbott
Anderson
Atz
Batch
Beck
Bender (trees)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brown (Washington)
Burke
Burns
Bush
Campbell
Casey
Clark
Collins (A's)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree

Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Dineen
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Easterly
Egan
Elberfeld (portrait-Washington)
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Freeman
Fromme
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hinchman (Toledo)

Hoblitzell
Hofman
Hoffman (Providence)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Kelley
Kisinger
Kleinow (New York-catching)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lavender
Livingstone
McCormick
Milligan
Oakes
Oberlin
Parent
Pfeister (seated)
Purtell

Quillen
Rhoades (arm extended)
Scott
Smith (Buffalo)
F. Smith (white cap)
Stanage
Stephens
Sweeney (Boston)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thomas
Titus
White (Buffalo)
Wilson
Wright
Zimmerman



350/460 series..................58 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Harry Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)

Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)



460-only Series..................46 subjects

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand at waist)

Hummel
Lake, St. Louis (ball)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)

Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Six Super-Prints

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)


This survey is a work in progress....any new OLD MILL inputs are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

The Old Mill subset is a serious task. I haven't officially focused on the subset yet, even though my Old Mill count is currently at 151. My first Old Mill purchase was a Heinie Zimmermann. My second was a Hal Chase Blue Portrait. My Old Mill SL is complete. Just doing a search on Ebay for T206 Old Mill's will show that not many non SL's are available. I will most likely focus on the Old Mill's a bit more after my Polar Bear subset is down to single digits. It should be interesting to see if a few more Old Mill's get confirmed.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





TheT206 set includes exactly 48 Southern League (SL) subjects....34 of which were printed with 3 different backs (brown HINDU, OLD MILL, and PIEDMONT 350).
And, the other 14 of these cards were printed with just OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs.


Checklist of the 48 subjects in the SL series is broken down with respect to the cards with HINDU vs. the no HINDU cards........

34 subjects with brown HINDU, OLD MILL, and PIEDMONT 350 backs

Bay
Bernhard
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam
Foster
Fritz
Greminger
Guiheen
Helm
Hickman
Hooker
Howard (Savannah)
Jordan (Atlanta)
Kiernan
Lafitte
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Molesworth
Mullaney
Otey
Paige
Perdue
Persons
Reagan
Revelle
Ryan
Shaughnessy
Sid Smith (Atlanta)
Thornton
Violat


14 subjects with only OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs

Bastian
Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
King
Lentz
Miller
Orth
Rockenfeld
Seitz
Smith (Shreveport)
Stark
Thebo
Westlake
White (Houston)


Stay tuned....additional info regarding these Southern Leaguer's will follow. Including the Brown OLD MILL backs of some of the SL cards.
And, collecting the "Quadruplicate" sub-set of the twenty Southern Association cards.


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Interesting Ted. I'm looking forward to reading your theory about why some SL were not printed with a Hindu back.

[tedzan]

Hi Sean

The timeline of the print runs of the 48 subjects in the Southern League (SL) series tells us the story.

Circa..Summer > Fall 1909, the 1st press run of the SLer's (34 subjects) were printed with HINDU backs.

Circa..late 1909 > early 1910, the OLD MILL press runs started and the following 14 subjects were added
to the SL series (total = 48 subjects)......

Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
King (Danville)
Lentz (Little Rock)
Orth (Lynchburg)
Rockenfeld (Montgomery)
Seitz (Norfolk)
Westlake (Danville)

Texas League

Bastian (San Antonio)
Molly Miller (Dallas)
Carlos Smith (Shreveport)
Stark (San Antonio)
Thebo (Waco)
Foley White (Houston)

Circa..Spring 1910, the PIEDMONT 350 cards were printed on all 48 - SL. Surveys indicate that these 14
additional SL subjects were were printed with PIEDMONT 350 backs in greater quantity than those of the
original 34 subjects were.


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

I have always thought that the print run of the latter 14 SLers started/ended at the same time. Two groups: 34 150/350s and 14 350-onlys. What is your reason for parsing out the 6 Texas Leaguers?

Scot

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

My recollection is, that years ago, you and I came up with 3 print runs on the So. Lgrs.

I've searched for this info in the Net54 archives, but I haven't any luck finding our discussion.

Am I imagining this, or did we arrive at such a timeline in the printing of these 48 cards ?


TED Z
.