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  #1  
Old 02-21-2006, 05:10 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Unfortunately, the SGC and PSA "pop" reports don't help give an estimate of how many (or how few) "Broad Leaf 460" cards exist...

because they don't delineate between the ultra-rare 460 backs and the semi-rare 350 backs.

Everything I read says that the "Broad Leaf 460" backs are even MORE SCARCE than the "Drum" backs...

so I just wanted to start a checklist and see how many of us have one or more of these. Any beautiful scans would be welcome!


The only Broad Leaf 460 I have is a beat-up SGC 10 Vic Willis card.




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  #2  
Old 02-21-2006, 05:13 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: bigfish

Both of mine were hof's. I have only seen two in 20 years.

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  #3  
Old 02-21-2006, 05:28 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: andy becker

i have zero. never owned a single card. i do think any broadleaf back is scarce, but 460 is tougher than 350.
350 series is not easy...by any means.
toby, which two hofers did you own?

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  #4  
Old 02-21-2006, 05:59 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Brian E.

I'm really interested to see what BL460s are out there, good thread Hal!

I think one or more board members may have had the Cobbie before it fell into my hands

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  #5  
Old 02-21-2006, 06:15 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I've been collecting T206 cards since 1981, I have
"completed" 2 - T206 sets (521 and 520 cards) and
have all the T206 backs (except Old Mill ovrprts.), but
no BROADLEAF 460.

So, Hal, in my opinion this back is the "toughest".
I have only seen 4 of them over the years. I have and
have seen more DRUM backs than BL 460.

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  #6  
Old 02-21-2006, 08:22 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Wow... if only that Cobb had stayed out of the washing machine... it would be incredible!!!

I should clarify: It is STILL incredible... but would be even more so!!



Does ANYONE out there have any "Broad Leaf 460" cards that are NOT "beaters" ??

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  #7  
Old 02-21-2006, 08:27 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Brian Weisner



Hal,
I don't have scans on this computer, but there are several examples in the 5-6 range including a Johnson Pitching and a Dark cap Matty which are both 5's. I will try to post a list and a few scans later. Be well Brian

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  #8  
Old 02-21-2006, 08:28 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Thanks Brian!

Those babies must be worth a mint. Or... was there a time when people didn't care about the "backs" and someone could find one of those for a "song"?

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  #9  
Old 02-21-2006, 09:37 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Ed McCollum

but did get it for less than a song about thirteen years ago from a fellow board member.

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  #10  
Old 02-21-2006, 09:54 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Art M.

Attn Ed McCollum...
Is your trade offer still open for this card? Please drop me an email.
Thanks,
Art Martineau

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  #11  
Old 02-21-2006, 11:07 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Jim Novotny

I know that you can look at the PSA and SGC population reports, but has anyone tried to compile a list from board members of the T206 cards and backs that they currently have? This might be a good way to verify the scarcity of the backs.

There are a couple of good spreadsheets out there which could be enhanced to calculate this if everyone has a list of the card/back that they have. Id be willing to be head bean counter if there is interest.

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  #12  
Old 02-21-2006, 11:18 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

The fact that only 3 scans have surfaced thus far definitely supports the idea that these BL460's are pretty darn rare.

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  #13  
Old 02-21-2006, 11:34 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: robert a

Here's mine.

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  #14  
Old 02-21-2006, 11:36 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

As Abbott & Costello would ask:

"Who's on Front"?

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  #15  
Old 02-21-2006, 11:38 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: fkw

A good indication...

In Art Martineau and Doug Allens back survey from 1997-99 (VCBC issue #26). They had polled collections of 45 of the top T206 collectors, that included almost a half million T206 cards (437,553). And only 8 total BroadLeaf460s were in that bunch. Compared with 29 Drum cards, 63 Uzit, 112 Lenox, etc.

it worked out to 1 BroadLeaf460 in every 54,694 cards.

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  #16  
Old 02-21-2006, 11:39 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Wow! Thanks Frank!

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  #17  
Old 02-21-2006, 12:37 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: barrysloate

Over the years I figure I must have handled 10-20,000 T206. I've had dozens of 350's, but it's possible I've had maybe one 460. And I've had at least 5-6 Drums.

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  #18  
Old 02-21-2006, 01:13 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Ed McCollum

you sold me mine.

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  #19  
Old 02-21-2006, 01:16 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Lee Behrens

The last time I heard of one going for a song was Scott Forrestt BINing one for $250 about 4 years ago, I believe the owner had 3 or four at the time and didn't realize the scarcity. Changed the BINs on the rest.

Lee

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  #20  
Old 02-21-2006, 02:13 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: barrysloate

Ed- I have no recollection. What year was it?

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  #21  
Old 02-21-2006, 02:16 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: scott brockelman

I used to own the Cobb above, i also bought one of the Ebay cards referred to above, that graded SGC 60 and still have a SGC 50(Which I kept because it was nicer than the 60). i also had a lower grade one(VG or so) so i have handled 4 in the last 10 years. which is probably a disproportionate number as they are very tough.

Scott

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  #22  
Old 02-21-2006, 02:36 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Ed McCollum

I was working on getting as many different backs as I could afford on no budget. Had all but a Carolina Bright, excluding the Cobb back. Found Barry through an ad in SCD (I think), and after a long phone conversation, he agreed to sell me a Frank Chance yellow portrait with a CB back, but only if I also bought this Broadleaf, which he had just picked up at a show. Said you hadn't seen one like it, and thought that as a collector, not an investor, it would be a good card to add to my mix.

Really nice price, too. About one third of what the Chance cost.

But Barry, you made me promise to keep it, and not just turn around and sell it. I've still got it.

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  #23  
Old 02-21-2006, 02:45 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: barrysloate

Ed- are you absolutely sure that was me? I would never tell someone to promise not to sell something. My memory is a complete blank on this one. I just saw your caption and I was not at the National in St. Louis, if that is where you got it.

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  #24  
Old 02-21-2006, 03:01 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: craig

There was an sgc60 Johnson throwing in the 12/05 Mastro that sold for around 5-6k. Seemed like a reasonable price.

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  #25  
Old 02-21-2006, 03:02 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Ed McCollum

I had picked up a pitiful Bender, no trees Drum back at the St. Louis national. That left only the CB. It was about three weeks after that that I contacted you. I remember thinking how cool it was that a guy in VCBC was actually talking to me on the phone, and being nice about it. Quite a contrast to the guy I bought the Drum from.

You said you would only sell the CB if I bought the Broad Leaf, too, even when I argued I already had a Broad Leaf.

Trust me Barry, it was you. And I'm glad you were insistent.

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  #26  
Old 02-21-2006, 03:25 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Jim Rivera



here is a joss in a sgc 30 holder.
i remember a m. brown sold in a recent auction for 7.5k

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  #27  
Old 02-21-2006, 03:28 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: barrysloate

Ed- I believe you, and I finally give you permission to sell it.

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  #28  
Old 02-21-2006, 04:47 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: bigfish

Andy,
I had two Hof's one graded an SGC 70 and one graded an sgc 60. I prefer to with hold the names because of the person who bought them should remain unknown. The book value on the card that sold in the mastro net auction was 13,000. It was an sgc 60 walter johnson. Super clean back. Alittle offe center left to right. Someone got a nice deal with that card.

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  #29  
Old 02-21-2006, 06:11 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Brian Weisner


Hal,
I know of at least 24 poses that have been found with a 460 back, but I'm not sure on the number of doubles. I have seen several O'Leary's and more than one Johnson, but can't give you a total. I would guess there are around 75-100 known. Be well Brian



PS Toby, The Johnson in Mastro was a steal....... I can't believe I bought the Magie instead.

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  #30  
Old 02-21-2006, 07:30 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Holy Moley.

It sounds like a Broad Leaf 460 card is actually as RARE as a T206 Honus Wagner card!!

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  #31  
Old 02-21-2006, 07:42 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: pete ullman

Hal...how does that card fit into your collection? It would fit much better in mine!

pete in mn

I passed on one for $200 at Fort Washington maybe 10-12 years ago. Asided from that I've only seen them for sale in auctions and on ebay.

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  #32  
Old 02-21-2006, 07:55 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

I would love to trade my "beater" Vic Willis and pick up a nice high grade BL460 HOF...

but it sounds like I missed out on the Mastro Johnson and will never again get the chance to steal one.

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  #33  
Old 02-22-2006, 09:10 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Anyone have a scan of the Johnson?

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  #34  
Old 02-22-2006, 09:59 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Anonymous

I know this is a 460 thread, but there are two broadleaf 350 backs up for auction on ebay as we speak.

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  #35  
Old 02-22-2006, 03:32 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Art M.

Here is my list of the T206 with Broad Leaf 460 backs that I have confirmed over the years.

T206 Broad Leaf 460 backs (confirmed):

Mordecai Brown, Chicago on shirt (2 known)
Burch, fielding
Cobb, red portrait
Davis, Philadelphia (Davis on front)
Dougherty, arm in air
Downey, batting
Evers, yellow sky
Griffith, batting
Johnson, glove at chest
Joss, hands at chest (2 known)
Kleinow, Boston
Konetchy, glove near ground (3 known)
Mathewson, dark cap
McIntyre, Brooklyn & Chicago
Mullin, batting
Murphy, batting
O'Leary, hands on knees (2 known)
Reulbach, no glove (2 known)
Rucker, throwing
Seymour, throwing
Snodgrass, catching (2 known)
Stahl, glove shows
Street, catching
Sweeney, New York (2 known)
Willis, throwing (2 known)
Cy Young, with glove

I have seen 26 different T206 players with Broad Leaf 460 backs and a total of 35 different cards (multiples listed above). I have owned the Cobb, Downey, Evers, Rucker, and Sweeney cards.
Art Martineau

Here is a scan of the Cy Young and Walter Johnson cards:





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  #36  
Old 02-22-2006, 03:47 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: bigfish

can i ask where you happen to get those scans?

toby

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  #37  
Old 02-23-2006, 07:51 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Art has seen or knows about only 35 different "Broad Leaf 460" cards that exist in the hobby.

Yet the hobby readily admits that there are at least 60 T206 Honus Wagner cards known to exist!


I guess one can only DREAM about a T206 Wagner with a "Broad Leaf 460" back, huh?



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  #38  
Old 02-23-2006, 09:13 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Ed McCollum

it makes you wonder how many cards were on a sheet at the time of printing?

The Wagner proof has five cards running across, right? (bad memory here). So you would think the sheet size would have to be divisible by 5. 26 doesn't cut it. 35 does (seven rows of five).

But multiples on a single sheet of Konetchy, O'Leary, Reulback, Snodgrass, Sweeney and Willis to get to a magic number divisible by 5? And only one sheet printed or surviving? No way.

Like Scot says "All this is not to mention the significant obstacles to survival posed in the near-century bridging original distribution with the present day. These include the passing of several generations of T206 owners, countless moves, harsh storage conditions and World War II paper drives, to name just a few."

Following Darwin's theory, the Broad Leaf 460 must have been the weakest.

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  #39  
Old 02-23-2006, 03:15 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Could we also maybe assume that their cigarettes just tasted the WORST?

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  #40  
Old 02-24-2006, 07:03 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Ed McCollum

is there really a difference?

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  #41  
Old 02-26-2006, 08:15 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Lookie Lookie!

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-Christy-Mathewson-Broad-Leaf-460-GAI_W0QQitemZ8772355080QQcategoryZ106178QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem

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  #42  
Old 02-26-2006, 08:20 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Art M.

The T206 Mathewson, dark cap with Broad Leaf 460 back currently on eBay is the same card I have previously seen (please see my listing above of known Broad Leaf 460 examples).

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  #43  
Old 02-26-2006, 08:23 PM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

So we are still at 35 and holding.

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  #44  
Old 02-27-2006, 06:44 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Just pointing out....Art M's list includes Red Kleinow (Boston), the only
card on the list from the 460-only Series. This one is very unusual.

All others on this list are available in the 350 or 460 Series.

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  #45  
Old 02-27-2006, 06:54 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

HAL

Hate to "burst your dream", but we all know Wagner never made past
the 150 Series. However, I have a suggestion that you might find
interesting.

Carefully release both your Wagner and your Willis from their plastic
capsules, let them breathe, then with some Elmers glue paste Willis onto
Wagner and you will realize your "dream".

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  #46  
Old 02-27-2006, 07:27 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Ted:

My "new" Wagner Broad Leaf 460 would then be too thick...

so I would have no choice but to also "soak and press" it to make it work!!

Heck, I would also "stretch and trim" it...

and then get PSA to put it in a PSA 8 holder!



Oh wait... this has already been done before with a T206 Wagner.

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  #47  
Old 02-27-2006, 09:09 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Mike

9 days to go... anyone care to venture a guess where this auction will close? I need to know if I should bother watching it or not. =)

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  #48  
Old 02-27-2006, 09:13 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

If the card had been graded by GAI instead of just "AUTH"... I think it would be in the $25k range given everything we read on this thread about rarity and the popularity of Mathewson.

I don't think the card is "trimmed" because a trimmer would have given it a straight edge.

I think it was "factory miscut" - maybe even handcut from the sheet back in 1909 - which is why it has a "bowed out" edge or two and could not be graded.

Thus, while this may lessen the value somewhat... I don't think it will diminish the value anywhere near as much as it the card was "trimmed short."

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  #49  
Old 02-27-2006, 09:20 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Hal Lewis

I was just guessing on the $25k. Who knows what this card would sell for in an SGC 50 holder?


There are 60+ T206 Wagners known... and they sell for a ton.

There are 12+ T206 Cobb w/Cobb backs known... and they sell for a lot.

Best I can tell, there is only ONE T206 Matty "Broad Leaf 460" known...

so anyone who wants the card will probably not care much about the factory miscut.



But obviously it would sell for a TON more if it had been graded.

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  #50  
Old 02-27-2006, 09:39 AM
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Default T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards

Posted By: Joe Walters

I think that I have a scan of it somewhere. It appears to be a real nice example.

Hal, didn't you own this card at one time?

edited to correct spelling

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