Where are you Jason May...

[OldSchoolBaseball]

I agree that it's completely unreasonable to expect a refund after that amount of time. For authentication - 60 days max is acceptable for getting a response back and communicating to the seller.

Personally, I think the autos are good - PSA and other authentication companies sometimes just don't know, so they error on the side of "not authentic" but they get it wrong too.

I have an autograph signed at a dinner from a HOF'er, and since he was drunk off his ass, the auto is terrible and would never pass authentication.

I say sorry, learn from it and move on

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by OldSchoolBaseball

I agree that it's completely unreasonable to expect a refund after that amount of time. For authentication - 60 days max is acceptable for getting a response back and communicating to the seller.

Personally, I think the autos are good - PSA and other authentication companies sometimes just don't know, so they error on the side of "not authentic" but they get it wrong too.

I have an autograph signed at a dinner from a HOF'er, and since he was drunk off his ass, the auto is terrible and would never pass authentication.

I say sorry, learn from it and move on

JSA took 12 weeks to get me a decision


What say you?

[TheNightmanCometh]

As someone who sells cards from time to time. If I found that I sold a card that wasn't what I claimed it to be, there'd be no question that I would refund the money. The only thing we have in this business is our name and that is built on being ethical. If it's 1 day or 1 year or 10 years, if I sold something fraudulent, unbeknownst to me, I'd do what is right and refund the buyer's money.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by TheNightmanCometh

As someone who sells cards from time to time. If I found that I sold a card that wasn't what I claimed it to be, there'd be no question that I would refund the money. The only thing we have in this business is our name and that is built on being ethical. If it's 1 day or 1 year or 10 years, if I sold something fraudulent, unbeknownst to me, I'd do what is right and refund the buyer's money.

+1. I took a signed Berra back I had signed through his foundation which had failed psa. It doesnt matter if an auto good or not, as long as it passes. Hence why I've used Richard Simon on authographs I need decisions and opinions on quickly. He's seen more fakes than most of the authenticators, and can at least explain why or why not items are questionable. At that point leaving it up to the buyer to decide.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by TheNightmanCometh

As someone who sells cards from time to time. If I found that I sold a card that wasn't what I claimed it to be, there'd be no question that I would refund the money. The only thing we have in this business is our name and that is built on being ethical. If it's 1 day or 1 year or 10 years, if I sold something fraudulent, unbeknownst to me, I'd do what is right and refund the buyer's money.

Couldn't agree more and I have refunded items before, no questions asked after a year.

BTW, love your name, one of my favorite episodes

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by TheNightmanCometh

As someone who sells cards from time to time. If I found that I sold a card that wasn't what I claimed it to be, there'd be no question that I would refund the money. The only thing we have in this business is our name and that is built on being ethical. If it's 1 day or 1 year or 10 years, if I sold something fraudulent, unbeknownst to me, I'd do what is right and refund the buyer's money.

Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances that a seller should accommodate. Waiting 1, 2 3 or more years to send it away then asking for a refund is not one of the. Waiting and proving the time frame is out of your hands due to mailing or other factors is much more understandable.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances that a seller should accommodate. Waiting 1, 2 3 or more years to send it away then asking for a refund is not one of the. Waiting and proving the time frame is out of your hands due to mailing or other factors is much more understandable.

True, to an extent. But this is largely opinionated as others, including myself, have said that we have refunded an item that sold over a year ago.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

True, to an extent. But this is largely opinionated as others, including myself, have said that we have refunded an item that sold over a year ago.

Yes. It comes down to a few factors. Most people like to believe when they sell something, if they are genuine about what they sell, that items are sold as is and they can walk away from it without a never ending responsibility to it after it leaves their hands.

If you were to sell a car, would you want to keep getting text messages from the guy that bought it every time it needs some work? A lot of people sell things to absolve themselves from it.

If you misrepresent an item intentionally, then all rules are out the window. You deserve to be on the hook forever if someone comes back.

[Duluth Eskimo]

What many people seem to be missing is that what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. No matter the time limit. I have bought and sold autographs along with other memorabilia for over 30 years and have never left someone hanging if an issue like this pops up. These issues come up and as a seller, you are representing something as authentic when it is sold. Even if I don't agree with what PSA or JSA say, I would still refund their money or make it right.

On a side note, and hopefully I am not speaking out of turn, at this same show Brent attended I was speaking with a friend and colleague in the autograph business. He informed me that he recently had an item fail authentication that was sold by Jim Stinson many many years ago, but still had the invoice that he kept with all of his personal collection. He contacted Jim and without hesitation, Jim issued him a full refund, fully explained the situation that led to how he picked up the item, and took responsibility for the situation. A highly commendable move on his part that I thought was worth sharing.

In the end, I think making the deal right is what's right. It will be hard given the words exchanged, but I think taking responsibility is the right thing to do.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

In the end, I think making the deal right is what's right. It will be hard given the words exchanged, but I think taking responsibility is the right thing to do.

I think that this noble principle is at tension with the context, particularly the timing. This isn't the GAP taking a return from a customer years after selling a pair of pants without asking questions. This is two collectors making arms length trades, sales and purchases, with a lot of time passing. If the "right thing to do" for the seller is to issue a refund, the "right thing to do" for the buyer is not to ask for one in this case.

[Jewish-collector]

This thread is actually interesting to read thru. I don't know why. Maybe because, sometimes you just gotta say WTF.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

What many people seem to be missing is that what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. No matter the time limit. I have bought and sold autographs along with other memorabilia for over 30 years and have never left someone hanging if an issue like this pops up. These issues come up and as a seller, you are representing something as authentic when it is sold. Even if I don't agree with what PSA or JSA say, I would still refund their money or make it right.

On a side note, and hopefully I am not speaking out of turn, at this same show Brent attended I was speaking with a friend and colleague in the autograph business. He informed me that he recently had an item fail authentication that was sold by Jim Stinson many many years ago, but still had the invoice that he kept with all of his personal collection. He contacted Jim and without hesitation, Jim issued him a full refund, fully explained the situation that led to how he picked up the item, and took responsibility for the situation. A highly commendable move on his part that I thought was worth sharing.

In the end, I think making the deal right is what's right. It will be hard given the words exchanged, but I think taking responsibility is the right thing to do.

That right there is how it should be.

The stamp and coin guy I've gone to since the mid 80's took back a coin that failed grading as "altered" I saw it, and yes, it was altered.
The whole thing was done very easily, both of them recalled the sale but not the actual price. Buyer thought it had been "about X" and the dealer thought that sounded about right. Return, refund, coin labeled fake and kept in a special spot.
Oh yeah, the time between sale and return 10 years+

There's a reason I still go there after 30 years.

Steve B

[Cobra Kai]

Brent, have you heard anything else from Jason?

[JEFFV96MASTERS]

Pardon me for using common sense but why is the questionable stuff still being discussed in 2017 ?? Shouldn't this have been handled by sending it out to be looked at by the experts years ago ( back in 2014 from those texts) and a decision rendered back then ? And a compromise worked out back then


Jeff

p.s. Stop using JSA please- its not a "reliable" resource for vintage autos

p.s.s . Steve B-- Mike and Pete can I ask ??

[steve B]

Originally Posted by JEFFV96MASTERS

p.s.s . Steve B-- Mike and Pete can I ask ??

Of course you can ask.

I don't quite get the question though?
The stamp and coin guy I go to is Mark Processi who owns Alan stamp and coin in Woodbury, CT
The customer was some random guy I didn't know.

I got to see a lot of stuff since I hung out at the shop for hours at a time. Maybe 3-4 hours some days, at least a couple days a week. After a while he'd give me store credit for doing some work. Sorting stuff, stapling coins into the 2x2 holders, pricing stamps. that sort of stuff.

Steve B

[autograf]

Tough situation. Like most here, I think the time to return should be something less than 2-3 years. If most all your cards were graded or with letters, I can't understand why these cards would sit in your collection for years before you decide to authenticate them. For those kind of dollars, I would want as immediate confirmation as possible. Not sure there's a good solution. Maybe splitting the cost down the middle. Then you'll still have two pissed off people.

And I really don't like that Simmons........the Fabers look pretty good though. There's the rub with buying raw autographs. They might all be fake, but with a letter or encapsulated, most people aren't gonna question them at that point.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances that a seller should accommodate. Waiting 1, 2 3 or more years to send it away then asking for a refund is not one of the. Waiting and proving the time frame is out of your hands due to mailing or other factors is much more understandable.

I agree unless there was fraud involved which doesnt sound like the case here.

However even if it is unreasonable to ask for a refund for a 10 year transaction for example and just because you dont like the color anymore, IF the seller says he will refund it or make a trade of certain trade value, he is now on the hook if he does not come through. All the seller had to say was, 'its been 2 years buddy' no refunds.

Plus this nonsense:

"If the email had been less demanding I probably would have offered a refund, but I don't respond well to discourteousness"

And then there is a later email saying that was probably not the truth by the seller. So now there are two issues the buy can rely on as to why he should get a refund even it is a ridiculous amount of time.

Basically any party can agree to something more than is in a contract if they want but they dont have to in the first place. They shouldnt of offered it up.

Your rent is due in 30 days, but you get an email from the landlord saying he will agree to another 70 days to pay. Well, now you got 70 days. Need to be careful what you say actually, though we do live in an age of alternative facts. Hope you enjoy my net54 grammar.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I agree unless there was fraud involved which doesnt sound like the case here.

However even if it is unreasonable to ask for a refund for a 10 year transaction for example and just because you dont like the color anymore, IF the seller says he will refund it or make a trade of certain trade value, he is now on the hook if he does not come through. All the seller had to say was, 'its been 2 years buddy' no refunds.

Plus this nonsense:

"If the email had been less demanding I probably would have offered a refund, but I don't respond well to discourteousness"

And then there is a later email saying that was probably not the truth by the seller. So now there are two issues the buy can rely on as to why he should get a refund even it is a ridiculous amount of time.

Basically any party can agree to something more than is in a contract if they want but they dont have to in the first place. They shouldnt of offered it up.

Your rent is due in 30 days, but you get an email from the landlord saying he will agree to another 70 days to pay. Well, now you got 70 days. Need to be careful what you say actually, though we do live in an age of alternative facts. Hope you enjoy my net54 grammar.

Yeah, it has certainly been interesting to say the least.

I totally believe he knew exactly what he was doing selling me these cards and passing on the bad ones to others.

On my end, I typically don't send out cards to get graded. But, I've certainly will be sending them out after I receive them to avoid and potential issues. I admit I certainly could have been better in those regards.

But I whole heartedly am willing to bet this was all part of his plan. Trying to sell the Simmons a year prior for $2,500 then offers $1,250 (because he knows it's bad). Or his "Hornsby". That's a $5k+ card that he tried selling for around $1,500. The list goes on and on.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I may have missed this, but on cards purchased in Dec. 2014, why wait until 2017 to submit them for authentication?

[Jersey City Giants]

No card or money is worth your reputation period.

[1952boyntoncollector]

It is interesting in terms of how long it is reasonable to ask for a refund people are citing 'regular business practices' such as what a credit card does and then what grading companies do and other examples in the hobby..

when i cited a regular business practice about whether auctions disclose soaking people said regular business practice means nothing if it is wrong etc.

well the seller can always offer more than what a business practice does so if the seller agrees to a refund years later for example, he agreed. When a seller says 'i would of refunded but for your attitude' that means he wouldnt of refunded and is making up a fake excuse.

There are certain things that it is entirely reasonable to ask for a refund years later. Issues such as fraud and collusion. If you learned for example someone from a grading company and a seller colluded to say a card you bought was real, then 6 years later you found out about the collusion and that is was a sure fake, i dont think you should just chalk that up as a loss.

So it all depends.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

When a seller says 'i would of refunded but for your attitude' that means he wouldnt of refunded and is making up a fake excuse.

I 100% agree with this.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I 100% agree with this.

Please note that bnorth agreed with something i said. I will save this post for posterity.

[slidekellyslide]

I personally would never try to return something 2-3 years after a deal had been made. If you are dealing in autographs that you think you need an opinion from a professional the courteous thing to do is to do it right away when you receive the item so a return is much easier if it fails authentication.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I personally would never try to return something 2-3 years after a deal had been made. If you are dealing in autographs that you think you need an opinion from a professional the courteous thing to do is to do it right away when you receive the item so a return is much easier if it fails authentication.

I agree for the most part. He was so adamant they were authentic that I trusted him (like I always had before) and had no reason to send them in. They (JSA) happened to be in town so I thought it would be convenient to finally get them done, along with others. I thought he would be willing and easy to do a return with as I sure as hell would have in the same circumstances.

[Paul S]

oops wrong thread

[savedfrommyspokes]

I sell off a fair number of my duplicates.....about once a month I try to delete the scans that are a year+ or older from my hard drive. Several years ago, my hard drive crashed....all of the images I had stored were unable to be accessed.

So, if after 3 years someone who purchased a (non-graded) card decides to return it, how can a seller verify that the card being returned is the same one sold if no scan is not available due to the "extreme" length of time that has passed?

Is it reasonable to expect a seller to keep every scan of every card they sell in their lifetime just in case a return comes up 2-5 years down the road?

What is a reasonable amount of time that a seller should maintain scans of items sold in order to verify a return?

Is it fair for a seller to take a return back that can't be verified by the scan used to sell it?


Not sure if any of this applies to this situation or not...... either way, 3 years is too long for any reasonable buyer to expect to be able to return an item.


Finally, I also have a HOFer's auto that was signed one day when he was in a hurry and it appears NOTHING like ANY other of his autos I have ever seen....

[irv]

Although I have never sold anything here or on E-Bay before, I believe there is a lesson to be learned here, and that is, every seller, no matter how big or how small, should clearly state in their posts/ads, how long their return policy is.

I was going to say 3 months but like, Ted, mentioned, it took him 3 months for an authentication so I don't think 6 months is unreasonable.

I know many know each other here, but despite that, it should still be clearly stated and adhered too.

[T206Collector]

I know both of the people in this thread and think they're both top notch. They should be able to work it out privately. But, as a collector of signed pre-war cards I would never -- really never -- buy or trade anywhere near full market for a signed T206 that doesn't have full authenticity from SGC, PSA, Beckett, or JSA. When I picked up my latest find, I paid over $1,000 to have JSA and SGC both and separately authenticate them before sending the seller a penny. Wouldn't have done the deal otherwise.

Guys who are comfortable dealing in raw autographs these days are just asking for this kind of trouble. You may know what you have is real, but it really doesn't matter anymore if you ever plan to part with your items.

I can't imagine buying a raw signed T206 card without an explicit -- in writing -- understanding as to authenticity and a timeline for a potential return. And if I were to sell or trade an unauthenticated signed T206, I'd give the buyer a written understanding of my return policy every time.

In this dispute, I have to side with Jason. If I acquired an unauthenticated signed card and hoped to return it if it failed authentication I would have gotten it reviewed in days not weeks, months or years. And if I tried to return it after this period of time, I would be coming as apologetically and politely as I am humanly capable of.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I know both of the people in this thread and think they're both top notch. They should be able to work it out privately. But, as a collector of signed pre-war cards I would never -- really never -- buy or trade anywhere near full market for a signed T206 that doesn't have full authenticity from SGC, PSA, Beckett, or JSA. When I picked up my latest find, I paid over $1,000 to have JSA and SGC both and separately authenticate them before sending the seller a penny. Wouldn't have done the deal otherwise.



Guys who are comfortable dealing in raw autographs these days are just asking for this kind of trouble. You may know what you have is real, but it really doesn't matter anymore if you ever plan to part with your items.



I can't imagine buying a raw signed T206 card without an explicit -- in writing -- understanding as to authenticity and a timeline for a potential return. And if I were to sell or trade an unauthenticated signed T206, I'd give the buyer a written understanding of my return policy every time.



In this dispute, I have to side with Jason. If I acquired an unauthenticated signed card and hoped to return it if it failed authentication I would have gotten it reviewed in days not weeks, months or years. And if I tried to return it after this period of time, I would be coming as apologetically and politely as I am humanly capable of.

Paul,

I appreciate your response and always respect your opinion.

Unfortunately this won't get settled privately as he's shown an unwillingness to respond to my emails and only replying to this thread "because he felt like he needed to."

So, you don't have a problem with his lies? You don't have a problem with him lying about them being wife signed (they are)? You don't have a problem that he lied saying the OWNER OF JSA said these were good (when they aren't)? Why not get them authenticated himself then if they were good? Or, is he just massaging the truth. You don't have a problem with him saying that I can trade or return it if I am uncomfortable with it (as I've shown)? Granted, there was no time frame.

[Bruinsfan94]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I know both of the people in this thread and think they're both top notch. They should be able to work it out privately. But, as a collector of signed pre-war cards I would never -- really never -- buy or trade anywhere near full market for a signed T206 that doesn't have full authenticity from SGC, PSA, Beckett, or JSA. When I picked up my latest find, I paid over $1,000 to have JSA and SGC both and separately authenticate them before sending the seller a penny. Wouldn't have done the deal otherwise.

Guys who are comfortable dealing in raw autographs these days are just asking for this kind of trouble. You may know what you have is real, but it really doesn't matter anymore if you ever plan to part with your items.

I can't imagine buying a raw signed T206 card without an explicit -- in writing -- understanding as to authenticity and a timeline for a potential return. And if I were to sell or trade an unauthenticated signed T206, I'd give the buyer a written understanding of my return policy every time.

In this dispute, I have to side with Jason. If I acquired an unauthenticated signed card and hoped to return it if it failed authentication I would have gotten it reviewed in days not weeks, months or years. And if I tried to return it after this period of time, I would be coming as apologetically and politely as I am humanly capable of.

Paul I also respect your opinion, but the problem is he said he would have paid him back, had he been respected better. That is poor ethically right there.