My PSA Damage Tale

[Bpm0014]

The very first card ever submitted to PSA (Wagner) was trimmed. PSA knew it was trimmed. Yet, they knowingly decided to be dishonest to the public about it. That says a lot about the company right there. I despise PSA and everything they stand for.....

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

The very first card ever submitted to PSA (Wagner) was trimmed. PSA knew it was trimmed. Yet, they knowingly decided to be dishonest to the public about it. That says a lot about the company right there. I despise PSA and everything they stand for.....

i love it!!!! how about a little conviction Brendan!!!!

[biggsdaddycool]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

The very first card ever submitted to PSA (Wagner) was trimmed. PSA knew it was trimmed. Yet, they knowingly decided to be dishonest to the public about it. That says a lot about the company right there. I despise PSA and everything they stand for.....

+1 To my point from earlier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bpm0014

the very first card ever submitted to psa (wagner) was trimmed. Psa knew it was trimmed. Yet, they knowingly decided to be dishonest to the public about it. That says a lot about the company right there. I despise psa and everything they stand for.....

a big +1

[PM770]

By the way, who had under 2 hours in the "When will the first 'Nuh-uh, PSA is Awesome' post arrive" pool?

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

The very first card ever submitted to PSA (Wagner) was trimmed. PSA knew it was trimmed. Yet, they knowingly decided to be dishonest to the public about it. That says a lot about the company right there. I despise PSA and everything they stand for.....

Geez.. This holier-than-thou shtick is ridiculous. PSA has kept this hobby on a level playing field for 25 years. I remember buying raw cards in catalogs sight unseen and almost always being disappointed with the condition. That was the hobby we used to live in. A card advertised as "EX-MT" in the old monthly circulars were almost always EX or worse.

Now I can confidently buy cards sight unseen or with a bad scan because I have some very reasonable assurance that the card is unaltered and in the advertised condition. Not only that, but if it isn't unaltered or in the advertised condition, I have an additional financial guarantee beyond the seller. PSA did that for us. This hobby was a cesspool of greed and fraud in the 1990's. That was where we were at and I'm not trying to go back.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

This hobby was a cesspool of greed and fraud in the 1990's.

If you don't think the hobby has become a bigger cesspool of greed and fraud as a result of grading, you've got your head buried in the sand. I would absolutely love to debate this with you on the open forum.

Let me give you one example. The whole PSA half grade implementation was a result of greed - PSA wanting the Kool Aid drinkers to resubmit their cards so they could be charged again. Not only was it greed on PSA's part, but also greed on the part of the collector in thinking their PSA 8 could become a PSA 8.5 and magically increase the value...even though it's the same card.

If it weren't greed, why did Joe Orlando flip flop his stance of half point grades? Here are two quotes from him (about four and a half years apart) regarding half point grades.

"From the start, I have been against .5 grades" 7/10/2003
"I stand behind it 100%" (referring to the implementation of half point grades" 1/17/2008

So, what changed? Greed! Again, if you don't think greed has increased with grading, you've been hiding under a rock or something. I have many, many more examples.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If you don't think the hobby has become a bigger cesspool of greed and fraud as a result of grading, you've got your head buried in the sand. I would absolutely love to debate this with you on the open forum.

Let me give you one example. The whole PSA half grade implementation was a result of greed - PSA wanting the Kool Aid drinkers to resubmit their cards so they could be charged again. Not only was it greed on PSA's part, but also greed on the part of the collector in thinking their PSA 8 could become a PSA 8.5 and magically increase the value...even though it's the same card.

If it weren't greed, why did Joe Orlando flip flop his stance of half point grades? Here are two quotes from him (about four and a half years apart) regarding half point grades.

"From the start, I have been against .5 grades" 7/10/2003
"I stand behind it 100%" (referring to the implementation of half point grades" 1/17/2008

So, what changed? Greed! Again, if you don't think greed has increased with grading, you've been hiding under a rock or something. I have many, many more examples.

I have a stack of signed 8x10's with old scoreboard COAs if you're interested. Third party authenticators have done more to clean up this hobby than any single person, auction house or entity.

PSA introduced half grades out of greed, but there is nothing inherently deceptive about the practice. You're complaining about half grades as if they're bad - who cares? SGC has them, GAI did, BVG does. I am more concerned about fraud.

Would you buy a 1952 Topps Mantle ungraded? How about a Wagner? Would you spend more than $100 on a raw card sight unseen?

But yes, I would debate that a hobby without third party authenticators is a hobby with more greed and fraud.

[steve B]

My answers added in bold. All assume that somehow I actually had the money, and for the first two that I could handle the card before buying.

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Would you buy a 1952 Topps Mantle ungraded? Yes
How about a Wagner? Yes
Would you spend more than $100 on a raw card sight unseen? That would depend on who was selling

Steve B

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by steve B

My answers added in bold. All assume that somehow I actually had the money, and for the first two that I could handle the card before buying.

Steve B

Fair, if the circumstances are perfect I would spend the money as well. However, 99.9% of my hobby purchases are done without handling the item beforehand.

I guess a better question: do you believe more fraudulent Mantles and Wagners are sold in PSA slabs, or out of them? Because is there is significantly more fraud when PSA isn't involved in a transaction, what leads people to believe that the absence of third party graders would lead to a less fraudulent hobby environment?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Fair, if the circumstances are perfect I would spend the money as well. However, 99.9% of my hobby purchases are done without handling the item beforehand.

I guess a better question: do you believe more fraudulent Mantles and Wagners are sold in PSA slabs, or out of them? Because is there is significantly more fraud when PSA isn't involved in a transaction, what leads people to believe that the absence of third party graders would lead to a less fraudulent hobby environment?

A fair question.

Obviously more fake Mantles and Wagners are sold out of slabs. But most of them are so bad I can't understand why anyone buys them. Unless you're a very lazy scammer looking to pass one off at a flea market why buy this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Ho...p2047675.l2557

when you could buy this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-25-RE...gAAOSwajVUP2lR

The second question is a tougher one, with no clear answer as I see it. Third party grading and the competitiveness of the registry has certainly raised prices for cards in higher grades. And those higher prices eventually raise prices for those of us that have to settle for whatever grade we can afford. If an 8 is too much, someone might go a bit over the average for a 7.

That's both good and bad. When I was hanging out at a shop 1977-83 ish, the values weren't anywhere near as high. And I saw a number of decent but not great collections walk away from the dealer because there wasn't enough value to compete with sentimental value. Say Grandpa had 100 T206s almost all commons, almost all VG. 1977 commons were 1.50 each and most HOFers $10 So the whole lot might bring an offer of $50-75. That's not usually enough to convince someone to sell gramps cards. Today, even if they're all commons say $40 each, so the offer might be 2-3000, maybe higher depending on how little margin a dealer wants to work with. And that's probably enough to convince someone to sell.

Without grading, I doubt the prices would be where they are. Lets say they'd be about half, less for the really nice cards, the 8-10s.

And without the money there won't be as much fraud.

The Dover reprints were around in 78, and either 78 or 79 was the only time I saw them being offered at a show as anything but reprints. Between 78 and 82 other than that small batch I saw less than 10 fake cards. Probably less than 5, as only a few come to mind. One was a fantasy piece made from a cropped photo of an old judge added to old cardstock with some newspaper ads and waxed. There was a 51 Mantle that was spectacular, but had been shopped around to a few dealers by mail that everyone believed to be fake but couldn't say why. When they showed it to me I looked at it for a long time before saying "That's a really good fake but I don't know why" The third is a card I bought at the first show I went to. An American Caramel Joe Wood series of 120. Looking at it now, it's obvious it's fake. What's always amazed me is the effort it took at the time. Printing a card without digital imaging and printers was just like printing anything else, and to do all that work for $2 seemed pretty crazy.

Of course there were trimmed cards, and especially on 71 Topps, recolored cards. But very few outright fakes.

Once the Rose rookie became expensive that all changed. I still wish I'd bought the fake one dealer had, one from the supply the faker had or from a dealer who'd bought a stack of them. (At the time, not as crazy as it sounds, you could order lots of 100 of nearly any card from Fritsh . I got a bit of trade value for unpacking an order of Yaz cards and putting them away 100 of each from 1970-about 76) Anyway, it was framed along with a copy of a court letter allowing its sale as long as it was stamped "counterfeit"
Within a few years there were enough fakes they filled a book.

Steve B

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I have a stack of signed 8x10's with old scoreboard COAs if you're interested.

Not interested, but let's start with your opening sentence. Are you're inferring that with PSA/DNA (and other like third party authenticators) that the number of fake autographs has decreased in our hobby? Come on, that is certainly not the case. Or are you inferring that autograph collectors can now have peace of mind from a third party authenticated autograph such as by PSA/DNA? If the latter is the case, let's revisit this thread...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=148790

This was a facsimile autograph that PSA/DNA authenticated as being the real deal. It wasn't a fake or a forgery, it was a copy of the original. A 10 year old with a loupe can tell the difference between a facsimile autograph and one that is actually penned. Why couldn't PSA/DNA? You can't blame this on on "mechanical error" as you PSA apologists like to often do. They simply authenticated a reproduction autograph without looking at it under magnification.

OK, how does this relate to our topic of greed and fraud? Well, it was fraudulently submitted and authenticated and then the greed of the OP wouldn't let him see the fact that it was a fake.

You infer that autograph collecting has become safer with TPG authentication, but how do you explain PSA/DNA authenticating a copy - again, not a forgery - a copy?

What greed and fraud topic do you want to talk about next?

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Not interested, but let's start with your opening sentence. Are you're inferring that with PSA/DNA (and other like third party authenticators) that the number of fake autographs has decreased in our hobby? Come on, that is certainly not the case. Or are you inferring that autograph collectors can now have peace of mind from a third party authenticated autograph such as by PSA/DNA? If the latter is the case, let's revisit this thread...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=148790

This was a facsimile autograph that PSA/DNA authenticated as being the real deal. It wasn't a fake or a forgery, it was a copy of the original. A 10 year old with a loupe can tell the difference between a facsimile autograph and one that is actually penned. Why couldn't PSA/DNA? You can't blame this on on "mechanical error" as you PSA apologists like to often do. They simply authenticated a reproduction autograph without looking at it under magnification.

OK, how does this relate to our topic of greed and fraud? Well, it was fraudulently submitted and authenticated and then the greed of the OP wouldn't let him see the fact that it was a fake.

You infer that autograph collecting has become safer with TPG authentication, but how do you explain PSA/DNA authenticating a copy - again, not a forgery - a copy?

What greed and fraud topic do you want to talk about next?

Do you believe more people have purchased forgeries without PSA/DNA certification or with?

Yes, I am claiming that the autograph hobby has become immensely safer for the casual collector. If I look on eBay for signed Mickey Mantle baseballs without third party authentication I 100% believe that I will find more forgeries than searching eBay for baseballs with authentication.

Also, do you believe I can find more eBay listings for fake 1952 Mantles listed as authentic in PSA slabs or raw?

Edited to add: ALSO, are you seriously inferring a casual collector is better off buying a high dollar autograph without any authentication than with? Because I couldn't disagree more with you.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Do you believe more people have purchased forgeries without PSA/DNA certification or with?

Obviously people have purchased more forgeries w/o. But that’s only because of the false sense of security that the PSA/DNA COA brings. I don’t collect a lot of autographs, but there are people on this forum whose opinions I trust way more than PSA/DNA. You really didn’t address my point about the Cobb. They authenticated a facsimile signature. You’re not getting that. We’re not talking about authenticating a forgery. That’s different. This was a facsimile! How can you trust a company that can’t tell the difference between a facsimile and the real deal? Or how can you trust a company that can’t tell the difference between Karl Malone and Karl Malden? (This is your opportunity to throw out the “mechanical error” excuse).

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=218336

If having that PSA/DNA flip, COA, LOA makes you sleep better at night, then so be it. But that PSA/DNA stamp of approval doesn’t mean anything to me (and there are many like me) when it’s obvious from the two examples I pointed out that they don’t know what they’re doing.

I really wanted our focus to be on cards since that’s what we were originally discussing. There are MORE card doctors today than ever before as a result of grading. The greed and fraud in this hobby has caused card doctors to hone their skills to be able to slip their alterations by the grade monkeys at these TPGs. Why? Because of the $$$ that some cards can bring in a high grade.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If you don't think the hobby has become a bigger cesspool of greed and fraud as a result of grading, you've got your head buried in the sand. I would absolutely love to debate this with you on the open forum.

I don't think I can agree with any statement any more than this one. Having been a collector, show promoter, dealer, store owner and back to collector (kinda in that order) for the better part of 42 years I feel you hit the nail squarely on the head.

The hobby was a very cool place to be in the '70's then greed took over in the 80's with those investors leaving after the card companies tried to capitalize on everyone hoping to put their kids through college with the modern stuff they had stored away. I remember the single player brick ads disappearing around 1990 and the investors leaving the hobby to the collectors soon after. It was only with the introduction of grading in the early 1990's did the investors return when they saw the value in owning the best of the best and determined if a flip had a "10" on it, well then it must be best and values skyrocketed. All one has to do it look at hobby history to know that the hobby has become the cesspool you mentioned since the advent of grading.

[darwinbulldog]

Not my card, but maybe this whole cutting corners thing is a trend at PSA this year.

Before: http://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-ca...a/7135-80444.s

After: https://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDeta...entoryid=33373

[stargell1]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

The very first card ever submitted to PSA (Wagner) was trimmed. PSA knew it was trimmed. Yet, they knowingly decided to be dishonest to the public about it. That says a lot about the company right there. I despise PSA and everything they stand for.....

This.