Letter to george and other "haters"--ali (cont.)

[forazzurri2axz]

Originally Posted by George

I am still waiting for someone to produce a veteran who thinks that Muhammad Ali was a hero. I doubt that one exists.

"Laura and I are saddened by the death of Muhammad Ali, The Greatest of All Time. I gave Ali the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2005 and wondered aloud how he stayed so pretty throughout so many fights. 'It probably had to do with his beautiful soul. He was a fierce fighter and he's a man of peace, just like Odessa and Cassius Clay, Sr., believed their son could be.'
"Muhammad Ali was an iconic and historic figure who thrilled, entertained, influenced, and inspired millions. Americans will always be proud to have been in his corner and called him one of our own.
Laura and I send our heartfelt condolences to Muhammad Ali's family and friends."
# # #
White House photo by Paul Morse, courtesy of the George W. Bush Presidential Library and Museum/NARA.

I was going to have several responses to your post so I put this as the first one and then realized he didn't serve! but it's a pretty good one from someone you probably voted for...and the ONLY thing I have ever agreed with Bush on!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

There are some realllllly stupid (and likely racist) people inhabiting this forum. Ali sucks because he's a draft dodger, but Ted Nugent, a real draft dodger, and pedophile RAWKS!!!1 Oh, and John Kerry who voluntarily signed up for the war in Vietnam is somehow a draft dodger???

Shaking my head......

Ali referred to white people as "the enemy". Show me a comment in this thread that is more racist than that! I won't hold my breath.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Ali referred to white people as "the enemy". Show me a comment in this thread that is more racist than that! I won't hold my breath.

I can get past and forgive many of the things he said and did during the 1960's and early 70's as he was pretty much a puppet of the Nation of Islam. He was a follower at that point, not a leader. He parroted what they told him to say. Not that that makes it right, but considering the times, considering what he saw going on around him, and considering how proud of a man he always was, I can personally get past that.

I just haven't been able to get past what he put Frazier through and never personally apologized for.

Tom C

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Ali referred to white people as "the enemy". Show me a comment in this thread that is more racist than that! I won't hold my breath.

Wow its unbelievable that people don't realize he was just a kid being influenced and used by others for political purposes.

I bet there isn't a person on the board that has said or done something racist when they were younger and regretted if not hated themselves for it.

We don't know what was in his heart or mind at the time so why are we judging a man? Because he was famous and we can sit in our glass houses and high horses while we do it.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by George

I am still waiting for someone to produce a veteran who thinks that Muhammad Ali was a hero. I doubt that one exists.

I was talking to my Dad yesterday. He was an Army Ranger during the Vietnam War, is a proud veteran, can recite military history from throughout the 20th Century, and he had nothing but complimentary things to say about Ali.

[drmondobueno]

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by drmondobueno

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.

+ infinity

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by drmondobueno

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.

Agreed.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by drmondobueno

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.

Yes, please, before any innocent non-whites are harmed.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by drmondobueno

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.

I concur, Leon, lock it. The truth is just to hard to accept for some people.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I concur, Leon, lock it. The truth is just to hard to accept for some people.

+1

enough is enough




.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kerry won a Purple Heart. Three actually. There is controversy about his military career, but he did not dodge the draft.

Very true. The unrepentant self promoter that he is "Live Shot" Kerry, as he is called by some in Mass., tried to re-enact the action where he earned the silver star to upgrade it to the Medal of Honor.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by drmondobueno

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.

+1

If you find yourself writing about something other than pre-war baseball cards on this forum, I would encourage you to find another place to do it. While it is possible for those of us who are disinterested in learning the political or religious leanings of pre-war baseball card collectors to just skip the thread or try to ignore it, the unhealthy effect such discourse has on the one thing that brings us all here is inevitable.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by drmondobueno

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.

Please!!!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[egri]

Originally Posted by drmondobueno

C'mon, Leon. Lock this thread.

Amen.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I concur, Leon, lock it. The truth is just to hard to accept for some people.

+1 lock it!! ...oh wait, that's me..

I was just telling someone I was coming back every few hours for the drama.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here's a suggestion to those that want the thread locked -- don't read it or post in it.

[kcohen]

-1

Nice to see a throwback to the the good old days with a turn to vociferous political argument, evocative of time when this forum was less nerdy. Now hoping for someone to hijack the thread toward a debate over the merits of Jimi Hendrix vs. Cream, or some other such weighty issue. We almost got there with Ted Nugent.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Here's a suggestion to those that want the thread locked -- don't read it or post in it.

That's why they want it locked...they can't help themselves from coming back to it and posting. They certainly dont want someone posting a dissenting opinion and not being here to respond!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kcohen

-1

Nice to see a throwback to the the good old days with a turn to vociferous political argument, evocative of time when this forum was less nerdy. Now hoping for someone to hijack the thread toward a debate over the merits of Jimi Hendrix vs. Cream, or some other such weighty issue. We almost got there with Ted Nugent.

http://www.amazon.com/Your-Favorite-...5S49JBV31J02WV

[T206Collector]

Regardless of whether or not I read this thread, I believe it to be detrimental to the health of a vintage baseball card board to have the top two threads be completely OT. Just keeps diluting the only reason most of us come here. Carry on if you wish, but it doesn't advance the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oh please. Hopefully the hobby and this board will survive.

[D. Bergin]

"Somebody please take away our pitchforks. We can't handle the responsibility."


LOL!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by kcohen

-1

Nice to see a throwback to the the good old days with a turn to vociferous political argument, evocative of time when this forum was less nerdy. Now hoping for someone to hijack the thread toward a debate over the merits of Jimi Hendrix vs. Cream, or some other such weighty issue. We almost got there with Ted Nugent.

There has to be at least a few zingers left, huh Ken? Hope all is well for you.....

.

[JeremyW]

Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean that you can't respect their opinion or their right to express it. To me, that means that our fathers, grandfathers, & great-grandfathers fought for all Americans, black, white, etc. to express their opinions. I think, as Americans, we should should respect each others opinions, although we may disagree.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by kcohen

-1

Nice to see a throwback to the the good old days with a turn to vociferous political argument, evocative of time when this forum was less nerdy. Now hoping for someone to hijack the thread toward a debate over the merits of Jimi Hendrix vs. Cream, or some other such weighty issue. We almost got there with Ted Nugent.

Oooohhhh...............Hendrix vs Cream !

Actually, I just can't manage to get into that one. I like them both, and there are plenty references to both that tell me neither Hendrix or Clapton would get into it either. When Cream broke up Hendrix played a song live that night and specifically said something along the lines of "It's not about who's better or anything it's just a great song and I wish them the best" Clapton supposedly said at one time that the first time he saw Hendrix he couldn't bring himself to pick up the guitar for a couple weeks. (Probably apocryphal since I've heard the same thing with other guitar players.)

What wasn't mentioned about Nugent is that a good deal of the venison he and his friends hunt gets donated to people in need who have heart conditions since it's supposedly much healthier than beef.

Of course, Hendrix enlisted, and was a paratrooper. Got kicked out/ left depending on what account you read. The actual record shows him being kicked out if I'm not mistaken.

While I was a bit young, I've studied a bit, and overall it was a complex and often bitterly divided time. I'd rather look at someones overall life and what they've done good and bad rather than condemn them for a choice made while young during that sort of era.

That should cover all the derailing points no? Hendrix, Cream, a minor religious reference, and a bit of Ted Nugent.

I'll leave you with this, a bit of a musical interlude by one of those dirty hippies who's also a veteran.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsnSANzUYJE


Steve B

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by forazzurri2axz

Your last sentence makes me realize that you are a Ted Nugent Dick Cheney
Richard Nixon right wing fool...

Please, if we are going to generalize and call all conservatives fools, let's at least be a little bit honest with our facts. Kennedy escalated the Vietnam War, Johnson really escalated it while simultaneously maximizing US casualties by tying the hands of our military, and Nixon ended the Vietnam War.

For the record, I am a big fan of Ali and JFK, and I don't have much good to say about Nixon or Johnson. I'm also a conservative.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Please, if we are going to generalize and call all conservatives fools, let's at least be a little bit honest with our facts. Kennedy escalated the Vietnam War, Johnson really escalated it while simultaneously maximizing US casualties by tying the hands of our military, and Nixon ended the Vietnam War.

For the record, I am a big fan of Ali and JFK, and I don't have much good to say about Nixon or Johnson. I'm also a conservative.

Johnson did a lot of good on the civil rights front, no?

http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/johnson.htm

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Regardless of whether or not I read this thread, I believe it to be detrimental to the health of a vintage baseball card board to have the top two threads be completely OT. Just keeps diluting the only reason most of us come here. Carry on if you wish, but it doesn't advance the hobby.

Detrimental to the health of the board??
Please,,, skip the thread if you don't want to read it.
Please explain to me how it is detrimental when anyone can just skip it.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Here's a suggestion to those that want the thread locked -- don't read it or post in it.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by George

I am still waiting for someone to produce a veteran who thinks that Muhammad Ali was a hero. I doubt that one exists.

Here you are George!!!
US Army veteran US 51606---
Ali was a hero to his country. There is a difference between country and government.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

By the way, you misspelled huge.

Uh,,, are you kidding or is that a serious statement?

[RichardSimon]

Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. Mark Twain
--
I would speculate that Mark Twain would not have supported his government during the Vietnam War.
That is what Ali was doing.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

By the way, you misspelled huge.

He was mocking Trump.

[joeadcock]

Originally Posted by ksabet

Wow its unbelievable that people don't realize he was just a kid being influenced and used by others for political purposes.

I bet there isn't a person on the board that has said or done something racist when they were younger and regretted if not hated themselves for it.

We don't know what was in his heart or mind at the time so why are we judging a man? Because he was famous and we can sit in our glass houses and high horses while we do it.

True.....but when one realizes this, they should disown it if they indeed believe they were wronged.

Agree, we dont know what was in his mind/heart at that time or even at the end. Only ONE knows that, and where you end up He decides.

[vintagetoppsguy]

“Integration is wrong."

“My enemies are white people"“

"All Jews and gentiles are devils"

"Everything black people doing wrong comes from the white people—drinking, smoking, prostitution, homosexuality, stealing, gambling—it all comes from the white people.

”Chinese love Chinese—they love their little slanted-eyed, pretty brown-skinned babies. Pakistanis love their culture. Jewish people love their culture. Lotta Catholics don’t wanna marry nothing but Catholics, they want their religion to stay the same. Who wanna spot up yourself and kill your race? You a hater of your people if you don’t want to stay who you are.”

“A black man should be killed if he’s messing with a white woman."

Hero? This is your hero? Or should we just overlook all this now that he's gone?

EDITED TO ADD: IF YOU REALLY CONSIDER A MAN THAT SPOKE THESE WORDS A 'HERO', NO WONDER OUR COUNTRY IS SO DIVIDED

[Bpm0014]

^^^ Good points.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

“Integration is wrong."

“My enemies are white people"“

"All Jews and gentiles are devils"

"Everything black people doing wrong comes from the white people—drinking, smoking, prostitution, homosexuality, stealing, gambling—it all comes from the white people.

”Chinese love Chinese—they love their little slanted-eyed, pretty brown-skinned babies. Pakistanis love their culture. Jewish people love their culture. Lotta Catholics don’t wanna marry nothing but Catholics, they want their religion to stay the same. Who wanna spot up yourself and kill your race? You a hater of your people if you don’t want to stay who you are.”

“A black man should be killed if he’s messing with a white woman."

Hero? This is your hero? Or should we just overlook all this now that he's gone?

EDITED TO ADD: IF YOU REALLY CONSIDER A MAN THAT SPOKE THESE WORDS A 'HERO', NO WONDER OUR COUNTRY IS SO DIVIDED

David, Can you just let this go?? Please, Holy s***. We get it, you hate Ali. After I end this post I will alert the media for you....

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

David, Can you just let this go?? Please, Holy s***. We get it, you hate Ali. After I end this post I will alert the media for you....

No, Kevin, I don't hate Ali. I just have no respect for him and, to me at least, he is certainly no hero.

[forazzurri2axz]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Regardless of whether or not I read this thread, I believe it to be detrimental to the health of a vintage baseball card board to have the top two threads be completely OT. Just keeps diluting the only reason most of us come here. Carry on if you wish, but it doesn't advance the hobby.

The hobby is in critical condition because of this thread. If 25 more people post, the RC Mantle will drop by $50,000 in whatever grade, and the Clemente RC will be put in bike spokes by the children of everyone here.
Whether one is in favor of this being locked by Leon opr not, I seriously doubt it's in the ingterest of saving the hobby!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Puulleease

[forazzurri2axz]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

“Integration is wrong."

“My enemies are white people"“

"All Jews and gentiles are devils"

"Everything black people doing wrong comes from the white people—drinking, smoking, prostitution, homosexuality, stealing, gambling—it all comes from the white people.

”Chinese love Chinese—they love their little slanted-eyed, pretty brown-skinned babies. Pakistanis love their culture. Jewish people love their culture. Lotta Catholics don’t wanna marry nothing but Catholics, they want their religion to stay the same. Who wanna spot up yourself and kill your race? You a hater of your people if you don’t want to stay who you are.”

“A black man should be killed if he’s messing with a white woman."

Hero? This is your hero? Or should we just overlook all this now that he's gone?

EDITED TO ADD: IF YOU REALLY CONSIDER A MAN THAT SPOKE THESE WORDS A 'HERO', NO WONDER OUR COUNTRY IS SO DIVIDED

a hero to millions and millions in this country and perhaps BILLIONS throughout the world ....and that is certainly not why our country is so divided. It's divided because of obstructionists like yourself

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by forazzurri2axz

The hobby is in critical condition because of this thread. If 25 more people post, the RC Mantle will drop by $50,000 in whatever grade, and the Clemente RC will be put in bike spokes by the children of everyone here.
Whether one is in favor of this being locked by Leon opr not, I seriously doubt it's in the ingterest of saving the hobby!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Puulleease

You are very good at putting words in people's mouths

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by forazzurri2axz

a hero to millions and millions in this country and perhaps BILLIONS throughout the world ....and that is certainly not why our country is so divided. It's divided because of obstructionists like yourself

Good to know you support his racist views

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Good to know you support his racist views

Wow. No joke.
I can't believe what I just read.

forazzuriaxz, you just painted a fantastic portrait of youself.

Glad to have known you. Go over to the Blowout. They will welcome you with open arms.

[Mdmtx]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Uh,,, are you kidding or is that a serious statement?

You obviously didn't read the thread simple Simon. My post was a response to his calling me out for misspelling genghis. My misspelling was actually due to auto correct "fixing" it.

Mark Medlin

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Please explain to me how it is detrimental when anyone can just skip it.

These threads - like threads about religion and politics - reduce people to their lowest common denominators. They predictably spawn hate and vitriol. They do nothing to advance the hobby. It's like animal porn - sure you could skip a thread titled "Monkeys f**g" - but the very existence of it on the board is like the graffiti on the walls of my train station in the morning. Hard not notice and always disappointing.

The reason any of us has a voice here is because of our collective interest in vintage baseball. To use that voice to spout ignorance and stupidity - or even intelligence - about anything else is a misuse of the board. By all means, carry on making the board a better place for collectors of vintage baseball cards. If you're posting about anything else kindly take it somewhere else. I submit that the reason people keep it here is because if they posted it anywhere else then no one would listen.

Why this thread - or it's sister - hasn't been locked is astounding to me, and frankly inconsistent with the historic basis for shutting many other useless threads down.

Carry on making the hobby a better place. You're all doing a terrific job here and should be really proud.

[Joshchisox08]

,

[tiger8mush]

on a pre-war note, I just noticed while documenting a few T206s that one has a stamp on the back "MO MEAT".

Anyone ever seen one with that stamp on it? I'll try to take a scan in a few days.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Please, if we are going to generalize and call all conservatives fools, let's at least be a little bit honest with our facts. Kennedy escalated the Vietnam War, Johnson really escalated it while simultaneously maximizing US casualties by tying the hands of our military, and Nixon ended the Vietnam War.

For the record, I am a big fan of Ali and JFK, and I don't have much good to say about Nixon or Johnson. I'm also a conservative.

You forgot Ike. He sent US "advisors" to the French, and later to Vietnamese President Diem, in the mid-to late '50s. My stepdad was one of them. He went to Vietnam in 1957. He was a MAC pilot and wing commander. He broke his back in an air to air crash in 1959 that I don't understand and he doesn't talk about, although my older step brother told me that there was some issue about him being too big for the plane he was flying at the time. He went back in 1962. He has absolutely nothing good to say about our involvement or the decisions we made while there.

It's easy to put today's spin on all that stuff. But I don't see how you can have any real perspective about it unless you were there. I am also sure that there were just about as many perspectives, every one of which was valid to the person who had it, as there were people who were involved. Ultimately, I choose to believe that people who followed the dictates of their conscience, whatever way that decision led them, did the right thing. Others may differ and that's OK. We will simply have to agree to disagree.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

on a pre-war note, I just noticed while documenting a few T206s that one has a stamp on the back "MO MEAT".

Anyone ever seen one with that stamp on it? I'll try to take a scan in a few days.

No, but I once flipped through a stack of 1979 Topps cards to find one with a staple through the eyes and the name crossed out and replaced with the name "Dick Meat". #truestory