nearly untouchable records...which will be the first to fall?

[the 'stache]

A strikeout doesn't require three very good pitches. Specious statement. I've seen hitters strike out on pitches in the dirt. I've seen hitters strike out on pitches way out of the strike zone. Were those good pitches, or was the batter striking out exhibiting deplorable plate discipline? Certainly, a pitcher can strike out a batter as a result of three great pitches, but it's not a requirement, especially today, when some batters are whiffing 200 times in a season.

As far as the greatest pitchers to ever play the game go, I wouldn't put Ryan on the short list. Peter mentioned that Bill James had him somewhere in the twenties, and I'd agree with that. Lower twenties. When I think of "greatest" to ever play the game, I have to limit the list to about ten pitchers. After that, it starts getting watered down. If you want to say he was one of the truly outstanding pitchers in the game's history, I could agree with that. But "greatest" infers the true elite. That, I cannot.

I look at Nolan's career, season by season. He had a lot of strikeouts, of course. But he also had a hell of a lot of walks. That's indicative of a guy that went up there and threw a lot of heat, but without as much control as a true "ace" might have. That knocks him down a peg. For every two guys he struck out, he walked one. So, if he whiffed ten guys in one game, he also put five base runners on without getting a hit. His career hits allowed per nine innings pitched is the best ever, but his WHIP is nowhere near the top. Base runners are base runners. It really doesn't matter if they get on by a hit, or by a walk. Of all Major League pitchers with 300 or more starts, Ryan's 1.247 is 91st all-time. Now, when I look at his FIP (fielding independent pitching), Ryan jumps way up on the list to 27th all-time. Of modern pitchers (again, with 300 + starts), he ranks fourth behind Koufax, Gibson and Pedro. That brings him way up on the list. Those are the two metrics I really look at when considering a pitcher's greatness.

Nolan Ryan had one truly great season, 1981. And that wasn't a full season, because of the strike. He only threw 149 innings. His ERA was a league-leading 1.69, his ERA + was 195. His next highest ERA +, in any season, was a 142 in 1987--at age 40. Now, a part of this can be explained by the teams behind him. Ryan was on a lot of mediocre teams earlier in his career. But, I just can't get past his career 112 ERA +. A 100 is league average. Al Leiter, Frank Viola and Mel Stottlemeyer also had over 300 career starts, and a 112 ERA + career mark. Ryan ranks 109th all-time on the list for starter career ERA +. And, that mark doesn't lower because he played so long. If I look at his career ERA + from 1966 to 1981--when he had his career high 195 mark--his ERA + to that point in his career was....112.

He gets marks for his longevity. And, again, he was real fun to watch. But one of the truly elite pitchers in the game's history? Not in my opinion. But, there's nothing wrong with being one of the best twenty to thirty pitchers to ever play the game.

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

A ground ball out or fly out sometimes only takes one pitch. A strikeout takes 3 very good pitches - so good that major leaguers try with all their abilities to hit it, and can't.