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#51
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But back to Jackie , he was not even the first choice for integration . That honor goes to Monte Irvin (rip) . But the owner of the Eagles would not let him go . Now Irvin's numbers are not anywhere near jackies . But Willie Mays said he was the man . And he's a HOFer. |
#52
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Peter Chao... "Where are You!?!?"
Now THaT Was an Interesting Dude! Man How I Miss da Ole' Days...
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Life's Grand, Denny Walsh |
#53
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Looking for Toronto baseball items. Please contact me at chris@pacmedia.ca |
#54
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hmmm...
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#55
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I do think so. There were something like 30 million white men in America 100 years ago. There are over 7 billion people in the world today. Even if you limit it to the males, I think far more than 30 million of them aspire to play in the major leagues. That said, there are also more roster spots today, but I still think a smaller % of the contenders make it to a big league roster today than 100 years ago.
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#56
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__________________
429/524 Off of the monster 81% 49/76 HOF's 64% 18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90% 22/39 Unique Backs 56% 80/86 Minors 93% 25/48 Southern Leaguers 52% 6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60% 237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW Excel spreadsheets only $5 T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!! Checklists sold (20) T205 8/208 3.8% |
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You could be right. I thought I read not too long ago that a problem baseball is facing is keeping up participation though. And there was a real worry that the spaces needed and number of players needed to field a baseball team was a concern for a lot of areas where kids were playing basketball and football instead.
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#58
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Baseball is definitely getting out-shined by Basketball and Football. The problem is baseball is trying to hard to appeal to people who flat out don't care about it. All these new rules are absurd. The Buster Posey rule at home plate and now we have the Chase Utley play at second. I think it was the Blue Jays manager who said "what's next we play in skirts".
__________________
429/524 Off of the monster 81% 49/76 HOF's 64% 18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90% 22/39 Unique Backs 56% 80/86 Minors 93% 25/48 Southern Leaguers 52% 6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60% 237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW Excel spreadsheets only $5 T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!! Checklists sold (20) T205 8/208 3.8% |
#59
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No it's not, because had been born white he would have likely played 5-7 years more at least. This topic, while you guys are free to debate it if you like, is horribly stupid.
__________________
Always looking for rare Tommy Bridges items. |
#60
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Then why are you commenting on it?
__________________
429/524 Off of the monster 81% 49/76 HOF's 64% 18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90% 22/39 Unique Backs 56% 80/86 Minors 93% 25/48 Southern Leaguers 52% 6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60% 237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW Excel spreadsheets only $5 T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!! Checklists sold (20) T205 8/208 3.8% |
#61
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Occasionally I see stupid and I comment on it. It's a curse.
__________________
Always looking for rare Tommy Bridges items. |
#62
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And you can't change stupid.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history. - Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first. www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports -- "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow |
#63
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Flaw
Steve-- you may have one of those dangerous flaws
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#64
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Are you purposely avoiding the stats-driven arguments? I feel you don't really believe the argument you proposed and were just bored.
If you need a white guy that got in with a short career not to any fault of their own, and therefor doesn't have the career stats to support it, look at Addie Joss. HOF voters judge by the talent of the player not the longevity driven stats that you used for your initial argument. His historical place in history due to breaking the color barrier adds to his impact on the game and society, but his stats, alone, were enough to put him in the HOF. His statistical case for being in has been shown many times in this thread and ignored by you, while you peruse the thread to find anything about race to attack. If you want to leave the argument to stats, than rebuttal the stats that are being shown and play by your own rules. Let's play it your way from the original post, why are any of these guys in they don't meet your statistical "magic numbers" for HITS, HR, and RBI: Name H*▾ HR RBI Joe Morgan*HOF 2517 268 1133 George Davis*HOF 2665 73 1440 Roger Connor*HOF 2467 138 1323 Charlie Gehringer*HOF 2839 184 1427 Dan Brouthers*HOF 2296 106 1296 Brooks Robinson*HOF 2848 268 1357 Ozzie Smith*HOF 2460 28 793 Johnny Bench*HOF 2048 389 1376 Luke Appling*HOF 2749 45 1116 Arky Vaughan*HOF 2103 96 926 Johnny Mize*HOF 2011 359 1337 Frankie Frisch*HOF 2880 105 1244 Ron Santo*HOF 2254 342 1331 Barry Larkin*HOF 2340 198 960 Bobby Wallace*HOF 2309 34 1121 Gary Carter*HOF 2092 324 1225 Ed Delahanty*HOF 2597 101 1466 Carlton Fisk*HOF 2356 376 1330 Fred Clarke*HOF 2678 67 1015 Ryne Sandberg*HOF 2386 282 1061 Roberto Alomar*HOF 2724 210 1134 Duke Snider*HOF 2116 407 1333 Joe Cronin*HOF 2285 170 1424 Pee Wee Reese*HOF 2170 126 885 Richie Ashburn*HOF 2574 29 586 Billy Williams*HOF 2711 426 1475 Billy Hamilton*HOF 2164 40 742 Lou Boudreau*HOF 1779 68 789 Jesse Burkett*HOF 2850 75 952 Home Run Baker*HOF 1838 96 991 Jackie Robinson*HOF 1518 137 734 Zack Wheat*HOF 2884 132 1248 Yogi Berra*HOF 2150 358 1430 Mike Piazza*HOF 2127 427 1335 Joe Torre*HOF 2342 252 1185 Hank Greenberg*HOF 1628 331 1274 Joe Gordon*HOF 1530 253 975 Bill Dickey*HOF 1969 202 1209 Luis Aparicio*HOF 2677 83 791 Joe Medwick*HOF 2471 205 1383 Enos Slaughter*HOF 2383 169 1304 Billy Herman*HOF 2345 47 839 George Sisler*HOF 2812 102 1178 Max Carey*HOF 2665 70 802 Bill Terry*HOF 2193 154 1078 Willie Keeler*HOF 2932 33 810 Joe Sewell*HOF 2226 49 1054 Gabby Hartnett*HOF 1912 236 1179 Jimmy Collins*HOF 1999 65 983 Elmer Flick*HOF 1752 48 756 Joe Tinker*HOF 1690 31 785 Harry Hooper*HOF 2466 75 816 Sam Rice*HOF 2987 34 1077 Bid McPhee*HOF 2258 53 1072 Mickey Cochrane*HOF 1652 119 830 Jim O'Rourke*HOF 2639 62 1208 Bobby Doerr*HOF 2042 223 1247 Kirby Puckett*HOF 2304 207 1085 Joe Kelley*HOF 2220 65 1194 Orlando Cepeda*HOF 2351 379 1365 Tony Lazzeri*HOF 1840 178 1194 Larry Doby*HOF 1515 253 970 Ralph Kiner*HOF 1451 369 1015 Nellie Fox*HOF 2663 35 790 Dave Bancroft*HOF 2004 32 591 Earl Averill*HOF 2019 238 1164 Johnny Evers*HOF 1659 12 536 Buck Ewing*HOF 1625 71 883 Jim Rice*HOF 2452 382 1451 Kiki Cuyler*HOF 2299 128 1065 Ernie Lombardi*HOF 1792 190 990 Heinie Manush*HOF 2524 110 1183 John McGraw*HOF 1309 13 462 Frank Chance*HOF 1274 20 596 Deacon White*HOF 2067 24 988 Edd Roush*HOF 2376 68 981 Sam Thompson*HOF 1988 126 1305 King Kelly*HOF 1813 69 950 Travis Jackson*HOF 1768 135 929 Chuck Klein*HOF 2076 300 1201 Hugh Duffy*HOF 2293 106 1302 Rabbit Maranville*HOF 2605 28 884 Earle Combs*HOF 1866 58 633 Red Schoendienst*HOF 2449 84 773 Hughie Jennings*HOF 1526 18 840 Roger Bresnahan*HOF 1252 26 530 Phil Rizzuto*HOF 1588 38 563 Hack Wilson*HOF 1461 244 1063 George Kell*HOF 2054 78 870 Pie Traynor*HOF 2416 58 1273 Bill Mazeroski*HOF 2016 138 853 John Ward*HOF 2107 26 869 Miller Huggins*HOF 1474 9 318 Jim Bottomley*HOF 2313 219 1422 Ross Youngs*HOF 1491 42 592 Chick Hafey*HOF 1466 164 833 Rick Ferrell*HOF 1692 28 734 Ray Schalk*HOF 1345 11 594 Freddie Lindstrom*HOF 1747 103 779 High Pockets Kelly*HOF 1778 148 1020 Lloyd Waner*HOF 2459 27 598 Billy Southworth*HOF 1296 52 561 Casey Stengel*HOF 1219 60 535 Ned Hanlon*HOF 1317 30 517 Al Lopez*HOF 1547 51 652 Tommy McCarthy*HOF 1493 44 732 Bucky Harris*HOF 1297 9 508 Wilbert Robinson*HOF 1388 18 722 Charlie Comiskey*HOF 1529 28 883 Leo Durocher*HOF 1320 24 567 Roy Campanella*HOF 1161 242 856
__________________
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bn2cardz/albums Last edited by bn2cardz; 04-15-2016 at 10:49 AM. |
#65
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That's a assumption.many major leaguers don't get a chance until they are older. So let me ask this same exact career but he was white . Is Jackie Robinson a hall of famer?
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#66
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Jackie Robinson changed the entire landscape of major league baseball and American society in general. Even if you want to play the stats game, no single player has had the impact on the game that he had. So he's in no matter what.
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#67
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It's not the same career. At all. You can't change the most fundamental part of his career and then compare. If you don't understand how monumental what he accomplished was then you're not in an educated position to argue HOF induction IMO.
__________________
Always looking for rare Tommy Bridges items. |
#68
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Haha so then you answered the question BOOM! Thanks
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#69
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Bored? Yes I was very. You must be even more bored to make that list. Most of these players you listed have various "factors" if you will, that would suggest their statistics are HOF worthy. "Most" of these players are far far closer to the magical numbers than Robinson. Catchers obviously get a break from the physical abuse they take during the season. Some of the players with a lower numbers not so close the the magical numbers happened to play in the "DEAD BALL" era where well the ball was dead. There's a reason why their numbers weren't as good.
__________________
429/524 Off of the monster 81% 49/76 HOF's 64% 18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90% 22/39 Unique Backs 56% 80/86 Minors 93% 25/48 Southern Leaguers 52% 6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60% 237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW Excel spreadsheets only $5 T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!! Checklists sold (20) T205 8/208 3.8% |
#70
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__________________
429/524 Off of the monster 81% 49/76 HOF's 64% 18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90% 22/39 Unique Backs 56% 80/86 Minors 93% 25/48 Southern Leaguers 52% 6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60% 237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW Excel spreadsheets only $5 T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!! Checklists sold (20) T205 8/208 3.8% |
#71
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I give up. Best wishes and happy collecting.
__________________
Always looking for rare Tommy Bridges items. |
#72
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In 1935 at the Big 10 championships, Jesse Owens set the world record in the long jump with 8.13 meters. Unlike today, he didn'the only long jump, but also ran the 100, 220 and 220 hurdles. During 45 minutes he also set world records in the 220 and 220 hurdles and tied the world record in the 100. At the 2012 Olympics, the longest qualifying jump was 8.11 meters and Owens 8.13 meters would have won the bronze in the finals. Who knows how much further Owens could jump if he didn't run sprints. However, there is no doubt Owens would be a world class track athlete today. |
#73
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Bolt would have beaten American Thomas Burke, the first gold medalist ever, by more nearly 20 meters, or over 60 feet. Jesse Owens? About 21 feet behind.a in 1913 and died in Arizona in 1980 was the most impressive athlete in the 1936 Berlin Olympics. He won 4 gold medals (100m, 200m, 4x100m and Long jump) and crushed the myth of Aryan supremacy in front of Hitler and the entire Nazi regime. One year before, at the 1935 Big Ten track, he managed to set three world records and tie another one in less than an hour. Carl Lewis, also born in Alabama in 1961 was the first athlete to equal Owens record in a single Olympics: in 1984 he won 4 gold medals (100m, 200m, 4x100m and Long Jump). He was able to win gold medals in 4 different Olympics, for a total of 9 golds in his carreer. During his career he set world records in 100m, 4x100m and 4x200m and he is still holding the world record for indoor long jump (established in 1984). Usain Bolt, born in Sherwood Content (Jamaica) in 1986 is the first athlete ever to hold both 100m and 200m world records since fully automatic time measurement became mandatory in 1977. He is currently holding 3 world records (100m, 200m and 4x100m). He is the first athlete to win 6 golds medal in sprint (Carl Lewis won 5 in sprint and 4 in Long jump). Not only did he break records, but he did it by large margins. For example, in 2009 he broke his own world record of 100m (from 9.69 to 9.58, the highest margin since the start of fully automatic time measurements). |
#74
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...And you are still avoiding any real debate but answering to the stats showing he does deserve to be in the HOF.
__________________
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bn2cardz/albums Last edited by bn2cardz; 04-15-2016 at 11:37 AM. |
#75
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Yes, obviously. Ya think as a player he might be a little better than Mazeroski and Schoendienst and Fox?
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#76
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 04-15-2016 at 11:47 AM. |
#77
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I'm with you. Any position that holds Jackie Robinson is unworthy of the Hall of Fame is untenable.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#78
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Another interesting stat that sums up how good he was:
If you take the cumulative WAR/pos and divide by the number of years they played to get their WARpos average. Only 11 players have an average above 6, J.Robinson ranks 9th with a 6.15 . Rk Name WARpos/years 1 Babe Ruth HOF 7.414 2 Willie Mays HOF 7.100 3 Lou Gehrig HOF 6.612 4 Ted Williams HOF 6.479 5 Ty Cobb HOF 6.292 6 Honus Wagner HOF 6.238 7 Hank Aaron HOF 6.200 8 Jackie Robinson HOF 6.150 9 Mickey Mantle HOF 6.094 10 Tris Speaker HOF 6.077 11 Joe DiMaggio HOF 6.008 ...but of course if you want to stick with your "charity" argument because he didn't hit any of the 3 "magic number" milestones than nothing can convince you and aren't really interested in a real conversation.
__________________
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bn2cardz/albums Last edited by bn2cardz; 04-15-2016 at 11:59 AM. |
#79
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Had Jackie Robinson been white, he simply could not have had the exact same career. Not even close.
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#80
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I get the point you're trying to make...the longevity wasn't there for him to hit the milestone numbers.
Same could be said for Koufax. That said, Jackie's impact and courage...you can't deny him his place. I get a little twitchy when we go overboard...his impact isn't greater than Ruth, and I think the number thing is silly, especially when you involve MiLB and put it on opening night for a bunch of them...but the HOF part of things, undeniable. |
#81
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I'm no statistics guru, simply too lazy to put out the time and effort. In Robinson's case, it appears that arguments can be made both for and against induction. BUT, when one factors in the other standards that are required to be considered by those who elect the players, I think his induction becomes a no-brainer. Having said that, I'm not in any way offended by the initial post which appears to have stimulated a healthy debate.
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#82
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#83
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Although... since there was no global warming back in the '30s, Jesse's times might have been artificially quicker due to less friction from the cooler air. |
#84
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Ralph Kiner had a WAR of 49, played 10 years, over lapping 9 with Jackie. Robinson had a WAR of 61. Kiner was white and made the hof, so I don't see how you could argue Jackie wouldn't have.
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#85
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 04-15-2016 at 12:22 PM. |
#86
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I know a lot of people question Bill Mazeroski as do I . But the other two seem to be more on the Ozzie smith side of things. With being outstanding defensively. I rather compare to players I've seen like a Don mattingly or a will Clark. But let's compare him to a Jeff Kent from age 28 . Jeff Kent from 28 to 37 year old . 1611 hits /HR 277 /2B 383/ RBI 1049 Jackie Robinson 28 to 37 years old . 1518hits/ HR 137/2B 273 / RBI 734 |
#87
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You need to adjust those stats for the era though. Jackie is fifth all time at 2B in WAR7 (best seven year stretch). Kent is 27th.
Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 04-15-2016 at 12:32 PM. |
#88
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Like others, I appreciate any discussion and debate.
Saying that, I'm somewhat dismayed that this particular thing is even debatable. Many, many excellent points have been made in support of Jackie's inclusion in the HOF. * couldn't play until he was 28. That puts a guy like Bryce Harper 10 years ahead of him in compiling stats (yeah, Harper's an OF - just picked a name out of the air). If the OP wants to argue against inclusion based on stats, this single fact alone trumps his argument. Take the first 8-10 years away from any HOFer's career and see what his stats look like. * hatred/taunts/death threats from damn near everyone around him, including the guys in his own dugout (maybe minus the death threats from teammates). * opposing players openly trying to injure him * had the temperament to deal with the above for two years before he was allowed to stand up for himself. Remained a man of character and restraint despite the intense opposition. * hugely important in the Civil Rights movement.
__________________
OBC (oldbaseball.com) member since 1996... looking for a low-budget T205 Irvin Wilhelm w/ "suffered" Scans of my Brooklyn Dodger collection |
#89
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#90
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I'm not sure what you mean. The stats are the stats the played the same game and position.
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#91
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#92
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Statistics are relative to an era. If the average player in the 90s hit 30 HR, and the average player in the 50s hit 20 (hypothetical), then hitting 20 in the 50s is the same as hitting 30 in the 90s. Stats like WAR are compiled on an era-adjusted basis to account for these sorts of differences. Kent's numbers relative to the era in which he played are actually nowhere near Jackie's.
Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 04-15-2016 at 12:46 PM. |
#93
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if you are going to question Jackie's credentials,then start on Yaz.talk about a career of mediocrety(sorry about that spelling).One outstanding year ,two above average seasons,followed by what ? check his averages outside of those three years.Played a long time ,long enough to reach the 3000 hit mark.Carried the team on his back in 1967 but does that get you into the HOF ?
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#94
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agreed.
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Last edited by FourStrikes; 04-15-2016 at 12:49 PM. |
#95
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When comparing running/track times, you can’t compare today’s athletes to yesterdays. As mentioned there are many reasons why today’s athletes are overall more fit, athletic, and faster. In 1954 Roger Bannister was the first to break the 4 minute mile. A feat that at the time seemed unacheivable by some, and made Bannister a global phenomenon. Since then almost 1500 people have broken the 4 minute mile – in 2015 there were 23 Americans alone who did it.
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#96
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Kent .290/.356/.500/.855 OPS +123 WAR 55 for 17 seasons Robinson .311/.409/.474/.883 OPS+ 132 WAR 61 for only 10 seasons. Robinson did more in 10 seasons than Kent in 17 despite the few stats you cherry picked. |
#97
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I get it I do but it's hard for me to get past the numbers . Kent was playing against roided up modern athletes. |
#98
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#99
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I haven't read this thread. Doing so would probably take a couple hours. I have a pretty good idea of what opinions are likely expressed, so I will offer my opinion without reading this thread.
I felt similar to the OP when I was in my 20's. Jackie Robinson is only in the HOF because he is the first black ballplayer. I thought that was ridiculous. In the last 30 years I have learned a lot and completely changed my opinion. He put up huge HOF worthy numbers in the short period of time he was allowed to play. The intangibles like the way he must have gotten into a pitchers head any time he was on base are immeasurable. I can't imagine any other person would have been able to endure the stuff he had to put up with. I have learned a lot about base ball history and life in the last 30 years. Jackie Robinson is number 3 on my short list of human beings I admire most. I suspect if the OP continues to be a student of the game's history, in 20 years or so he will rank Jackie Robinson as a top-tier HOFer. |
#100
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__________________
429/524 Off of the monster 81% 49/76 HOF's 64% 18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90% 22/39 Unique Backs 56% 80/86 Minors 93% 25/48 Southern Leaguers 52% 6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60% 237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW Excel spreadsheets only $5 T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!! Checklists sold (20) T205 8/208 3.8% |
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