Timeline of Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis cards). Show us your Demmitt & O'Hara cards

[Jantz]

Hi Ted

I would agree with your theory about Nichols. He would be a solid candidate to have been replaced by Demmitt or O'Hara.

Nichols (batting) is one of the toughest cards to find with a Polar Bear back compared to the other 249 Polar Bear cards in the set.

Jantz

[sreader3]

Hi Ted & Jantz,

Interesting theories.

I personally think ATC’s sensitivity to high customer interest in Midwestern teams among Polar Bear (Factory 6, Ohio) customers, particularly interest in the Cleveland Naps and St. Louis Browns and Cardinals,is a common thread that helps explain not only subject swaps in the 350/460 print run but also certain Polar Bear superprinting.

We know Nichols (Batting) and Rhoades (Arm Extended) were original 350/460 subjects who were pulled early from production -- not just from Polar Bear sheets but from all sheets.

We suspect that Demmitt (St. Louis) and O’Hara (St. Louis) were replacement 350/460 subjects on Polar Bear sheets.

And my 350/460 subject sales data show that Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing) are unusually common with Polar Bear. (Let’s call these two “Polar Bear superprints," for short).

Now consider the career trajectories of these guys.

1. Nichols
Nichols was traded to Cleveland during the 1909 offseason and retired in April 1910 after playing only three games with the Tribe, making him a candidate for early removal.

2. Rhoades
Rhoades was a staple in the Cleveland rotation for many years who retired after the 1909 season, making him a candidate for early removal.

3. Demmitt
Demmitt was traded to the Browns during the 1909 offseason, making him a candidate for late addition.

4. O’Hara
O’Hara was acquired by the Cards during the 1909 offseason, making him a candidate for late addition.

5. Willis
Willis was a star hurler who was acquired by the Cards during the 1909 offseason after going 22-11 for the World Champion Pirates in 1909, making him a "Polar Bear superprint" candidate.

6. Joss
Joss was Cleveland’s star hurler for many years who threw his second no hitter in April 1910, making him a "Polar Bear superprint" candidate.

I don’t know exactly how all the pieces fit, but I do think there is a cause-and-effect relationship between ATC’s sensitivity to Midwestern team favoritism among Polar Bear (Factory 6, Ohio) customers and printing swaps/anomalies in the 350/460 subject group.

Scot

[Sean]

Ted, Jantz and Scot, this is really fascinating stuff.

[sreader3]

If one wants to delve further into speculation, one can imagine the following timeline:

T1: Original 350/460 sheet

• Printed with "350 Subjects" and assorted backs, including Polar Bear in limited quantities
• Includes J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• Does NOT include Demmitt (St. L), O’Hara (St. L.), “Extra” Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing)

T2: Midwestern 350/460 Derivative sheet

• Builds off Original 350/460 sheet
• Printed only with Polar Bear
• Replaces J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• With Demmitt (St. L), Kleinow (Boston), O’Hara (St. L.), Smith (Chi. & Bos.), “Extra” Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing) (maybe each 1.5X printed ???)

T2 (or T3?): Non-Midwestern 350/460 Derivative sheet

• Builds off Original 350/460 sheet
• Printed with "460 Subjects" and assorted backs
• Replaces J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• With Kleinow (Boston), Smith (Chi. & Bos.), ???, ???, ???

Scot

[sreader3]

As a final note of support for the "Midwestern bias" theory for Polar Bear, I would note that Factory 6 was in Middleton, Ohio (Luhrman & Wilburn Tobacco Company) -- about halfway between St. Louis and Cleveland.

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

Listed here are the current POP report (PSA + SGC) numbers of the following cards of Nicholls (batting)......

AB 350 ........... 10
DRUM ............... 2
EPDG .............. 14
OLD MILL .......... 8
POLAR BEAR .... 13
SOVEREIGN ..... 12
TOLSTOI ......... 12


I'm curious as to how these numbers compare with your survey ?









TED Z
.

[Thromdog]

Couple more......
polar.jpg

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Scot

Listed here are the current POP report (PSA + SGC) numbers of the following cards of Nicholls (batting)......

AB 350 ........... 10
DRUM ............... 2
EPDG .............. 14
OLD MILL .......... 8
POLAR BEAR .... 13
SOVEREIGN ..... 12
TOLSTOI ......... 12


I'm curious as to how these numbers compare with your survey?

TED Z
.

Hi Ted, Have been away from the board for a couple of days. I'll see what I can track down re Nichols pops. Scot

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Scot

Listed here are the current POP report (PSA + SGC) numbers of the following cards of Nicholls (batting)......

AB 350 ........... 10
DRUM ............... 2
EPDG .............. 14
OLD MILL .......... 8
POLAR BEAR .... 13
SOVEREIGN ..... 12
TOLSTOI ......... 12







TED Z
.

Ted,

SGC has a few Nichols (batting) listed as Nicholls (batting) in their pop reports
namely two Tolstoi's and one each of Old Mill and EPDG.

This is what the current SGC and PSA pop reports show.


PSA SGC Total


AB 350......... 7- 3- 10
Drum......... 0- 2- 2
EPDG......... 10- 5- 15
Old Mill......... 5- 4- 9
Polar Bear......... 4- 9- 13
Sov 350......... 5- 7- 12
Tolstoi........ 7- 7- 14

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

If one wants to delve further into speculation, one can imagine the following timeline:

T1: Original 350/460 sheet

• Printed with "350 Subjects" and assorted backs, including Polar Bear in limited quantities
• Includes J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• Does NOT include Demmitt (St. L), O’Hara (St. L.), “Extra” Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing)

T2: Midwestern 350/460 Derivative sheet

• Builds off Original 350/460 sheet
• Printed only with Polar Bear
• Replaces J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• With Demmitt (St. L), Kleinow (Boston), O’Hara (St. L.), Smith (Chi. & Bos.), “Extra” Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing) (maybe each 1.5X printed ???)

T2 (or T3?): Non-Midwestern 350/460 Derivative sheet

• Builds off Original 350/460 sheet
• Printed with "460 Subjects" and assorted backs
• Replaces J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• With Kleinow (Boston), Smith (Chi. & Bos.), ???, ???, ???

Scot

I like your "Midwestern POLAR BEAR distribution" theory; and, I think it needs to extend to include Detroit.

Check-out your numbers for both Cobb's (red and batting). American Lithograph must have double-printed
or triple-printed these subjects with the POLAR BEAR (PB) backs.

Also, I am curious about your numbers regarding Crawford and the two Jennings cards with PB backs. Plus
Mullin, O'Leary, and Willetts with PB backs.


Furthermore, perhaps we should also consider the 12 subjects (with PB) of the two Chicago teams ?


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

I am happy to provide your requested data when I return to the office. But I don't think I would extend my working theory to Detroit. Under my working theory, there were five 350/460 subjects removed from production early:

Doyle (N.Y.) reason = team caption error
Nichols (Batting) reason = retirement after a few games played with Cleveland
Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) reason = trade to Boston
Rhoades (Right Arm Extended) reason = retirement after 1909 from Cleveland
Smith (Chi. White Cap) reason = trade to Boston

And there were four undisputed 350/460 subjects added:

Demmitt (St. Louis) reason - trade to St. Louis (Polar Bear only)
Kleinow (Boston) reason = trade to Boston
O'Hara (St. Louis) reason = trade to St. Louis (Polar Bear only)
Smith (Chicago & Boston) reason = trade to Boston

So the emphasis is on St. Louis, Cleveland -- and I suppose Boston.

Perhaps the transition was as follows ???

Midwestern sheet (Polar Bear only)

Doyle --> Joss/Willis (extra-print)
Kleinow (N.Y.) --> Kleinow (Boston)
Nichols --> Demmitt
Rhoades --> O'Hara
Smith (Chi.) --> Smith (Chi. & Boston)

Non-Midwestern sheet

Doyle --> Stahl
Kleinow (N.Y.) --> Kleinow (Boston)
Nichols --> ???
Rhoades --> ???
Smith (Chi.) --> Smith (Chi. & Boston)

Scot

EDITED TO ADD: As for Cobb (Red) being printed in large quantities with Polar Bear, I can say that ALL of the 6 superprints were printed in large quantities with Polar Bear. I believe this to be a superprint phenomenon, not a Detroit-specific phenomenon.

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

Illustrated in my 72-card simulation sheet of the original 66 subjects in the 350/460 Series are the 6 super-prints Double Printed. So, I agree with you that the large quantities of the red Cobb
are accounted for.

But, how do we account for the large quantities of the Cobb (bat off shoulder) which, in my research, are approx. equal to that of the red Cobb ?


v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v









TED Z
.