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  #1  
Old 09-22-2015, 11:39 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf441 View Post
Hi Ted,

1....What are your thoughts on the Red Cobb w/ Cobb back actually being distributed in packs of cigarettes? It always seemed more likely to me, to be some sort of promotional item. Would Ty be able to order a sheet of Tobacco Cards with his own "brand back" to be given out at, for example, his car dealership in Georgia?

2....But, I guess if that was the case, why add a factory number to the card.

3....Any idea when the earliest known reference was to the Cobb back? Wondering if we have proof that these cards were around at the time that the rest of the T206's were being distributed.

Thanks as always for the insight!

best,

Steve

Steve

My answers to your 3 questions......

1st....My guess is that they were not in cigarette packs, no packs have ever been found. And, I do not think they were included in the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco Tin.
Most likely, these cards were handed out to Cobb's friends and acquaintances.

2nd....The Factory number is necessary on this this card since it is associated with Cobb's Tobacco Tin (which also identifies Factory #33).

3rd....There was Georgia newspaper advertising in the Spring of 1910 introducing Cobb's new tobacco product.

Furthermore, former Georgia Senator Richard Russell's 1000+ tobacco card collection (which is on display at the Univ. of Georgia) includes this unique Ty Cobb card.
My research regarding Russell's childhood collection suggests that he acquired this card in 1910 when he was a teenager travelling with his Dad (a Judge) to Atlanta.


TED Z
.
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  #2  
Old 09-22-2015, 01:02 PM
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wolf441 wolf441 is offline
Steve Woe.lfel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Steve

My answers to your 3 questions......

1st....My guess is that they were not in cigarette packs, no packs have ever been found. And, I do not think they were included in the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco Tin.
Most likely, these cards were handed out to Cobb's friends and acquaintances.

2nd....The Factory number is necessary on this this card since it is associated with Cobb's Tobacco Tin (which also identifies Factory #33).

3rd....There was Georgia newspaper advertising in the Spring of 1910 introducing Cobb's new tobacco product.

Furthermore, former Georgia Senator Richard Russell's 1000+ tobacco card collection (which is on display at the Univ. of Georgia) includes this unique Ty Cobb card.
My research regarding Russell's childhood collection suggests that he acquired this card in 1910 when he was a teenager travelling with his Dad (a Judge) to Atlanta.


TED Z
.
Thanks Ted!

Interesting stuff. Makes you wonder where in Atlanta he acquired it.

A direct gift from Cobb (as a celebrity of the day, I'd assume Cobb would most likely know some judges)?

A promotional give away at a minor league/semi pro game?

A give away as part of one of Cobb's business enterprises?
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  #3  
Old 09-23-2015, 08:47 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Hi Steve

My understanding is that Richard Russell's Dad was a well-connected Judge in Atlanta region. So, it's anyone's guess how the 13 year old Russell acquired the Ty Cobb card.

Incidentally, Russell's T206 collection also includes a Joe Doyle Natl'L card.

How many T206 collections can make that claim ?


TED Z
.
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  #4  
Old 09-25-2015, 08:21 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Factory #649

Factory #649 in New York state was the Tobacco manufacturing plant of the HINDU cigarettes during the printing of the T206 and T205 cards era.
And subsequently, the T201 and T202 era of their MECCA and HASSAN products, respectively.

Furthermore, in 1909, ATC transferred a portion of their SWEET CAPORAL cigarette production to Factory #649. So, American Lithographic had to
overprint their pre-printed SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory #30 cards with #649 identification.





,







TED Z
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  #5  
Old 09-25-2015, 08:30 AM
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darwinbulldog darwinbulldog is offline
Glenn
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Basic question here, but I couldn't find the answer. Do we know the printing year for each of the backs? I know the Polar Bears are from 1910, but otherwise is it just 150 series is 1909, 350 series 1910, and 460 series 1911? And what about the backs that don't identify the number of subjects?
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  #6  
Old 09-25-2015, 02:28 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Glenn

Quote:
Originally Posted by darwinbulldog View Post
Basic question here, but I couldn't find the answer. Do we know the printing year for each of the backs? I know the Polar Bears are from 1910, but otherwise is it just 150 series is 1909, 350 series 1910, and 460 series 1911? And what about the backs that don't identify the number of subjects?

The following is the results of my research. I don't claim that it's 100 % accurate, but it should be very close.


T206 back ....................... Year issued

AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 ...... 1910

AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....... 1911

BROAD LEAF 350 & 460 ...... 1910

CAROLINA BRIGHTS ........... 1910

CYCLE 350 & 460 ............... 1910

DRUM ............................... 1910

EL PRINCIPE de GALES ........ 1909 - 1910

Brown HINDU ..................... 1909

Red HINDU ......................... 1910

LENOX ............................... 1911

OLD MILL ........................... 1909 - 1910 -1911

PIEDMONT ......................... 1909 - 1910 -1911

POLAR BEAR ...................... 1910

SOVEREIGN ....................... 1909 - 1910

SWEET CAPORAL ................ 1909 - 1910

TOLSTOI ........................... 1910 -1911

UZIT ........................... ..... 1911


TED Z
.
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  #7  
Old 09-25-2015, 06:29 PM
jl9999 jl9999 is offline
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Is there any rhyme or reason to how players were selected for a particular back? I know that with the more common backs you can pretty much be assured that essentially every player would have one of those backs. I find it odd though how some of the best players of the day aren't found on some of the rarer backs. Obviously back then they didn't have the hindsight that we do in regards to this person and that person being in the hall of fame but it would still stand to reason that it would simply be good business to have the best players represented preferentially on ALL of the back variations not just a smattering here and there. It makes no sense to me why some of the more mediocre players would be representing Drum, Uzit or some other rarer back while many of the best players of the era were not.
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  #8  
Old 09-25-2015, 08:12 PM
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darwinbulldog darwinbulldog is offline
Glenn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
The following is the results of my research. I don't claim that it's 100 % accurate, but it should be very close.


T206 back ....................... Year issued

AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 ...... 1910

AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....... 1911

BROAD LEAF 350 & 460 ...... 1910

CAROLINA BRIGHTS ........... 1910

CYCLE 350 & 460 ............... 1910

DRUM ............................... 1910

EL PRINCIPE de GALES ........ 1909 - 1910

Brown HINDU ..................... 1909

Red HINDU ......................... 1910

LENOX ............................... 1911

OLD MILL ........................... 1909 - 1910 -1911

PIEDMONT ......................... 1909 - 1910 -1911

POLAR BEAR ...................... 1910

SOVEREIGN ....................... 1909 - 1910

SWEET CAPORAL ................ 1909 - 1910

TOLSTOI ........................... 1910 -1911

UZIT ........................... ..... 1911


TED Z
.
That's what I was looking for. Thanks.
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  #9  
Old 09-27-2015, 07:35 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default 1910 COUPON....Factory #3 in New Orleans

I'll be dodging some incoming "flak" for posting this in this T206 thread. Nevertheless, this info is provided here for those of you on this forum who have an open mind.



Stylistic design of the T206 A-B-C-D connection of which the 1910 COUPON back corresponds with............





The 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON set are derived from an early press run of the 350 series of the T206 set. These cards were printed and issued in the Spring/Summer of 1910.

They are identical in every respect to their T206 cousins with the exception that the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on thin cardboard. My guess is that American Lithographic
printed these cards on thinner cardboard stock because these cards were not intended to serve as cigarette pack "stiffeners". The 1910 "COUPON" cigarettes were not marketed
in cigarette packs. This new brand was introduced into the marketplace packaged in cartons labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes that contained 100's of these cigarettes.





.





TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 09-28-2015 at 11:13 AM.
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  #10  
Old 09-28-2015, 07:55 PM
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trdcrdkid trdcrdkid is offline
David Kathman
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I love all this stuff. It reminds me of the work done by bibliographers studying printed books from Shakespeare's time, reconstructing where and exactly when various books were printed, and which compositors set various pages.

One thing that stood out to me in the discussion of how many T206s were printed was Scot Reader's statement that "it has been reported that in 1910 and 1911 bird and fish subjects were distributed in some Old Mill, Piedmont, Sovereign and Sweet Caporal packs instead of baseball subjects". This is more than just "reported"; as Ted notes, it's well documented that bird cards (T42 in the ACC) and fish cards (T58) were distributed with some of the same brands as T206, and that T59 Flags of All Nations cards were distributed in packs of Sweet Caporal Little Cigars and Sweet Caporal Tobacco Wrappers, along with nine other brands. All these sets are extremely common, and are among more than 100 different sets of non-sport T cards distributed in the 1909-11 time frame.

Robert Forbes and Terrence Mitchell's book "American Tobacco Cards" has checklists for almost all of these sets, along with information about the tobacco brands advertised on the backs and the factory numbers associated with each brand. I went through that book and, for each of the factories where T206s were packaged, I made a list of the non-sport T card sets also packaged at that factory. Following is a list of each of the factories Ted discussed in this thread, with the T206 brands packaged at that factory, followed by a list of the non-sport sets also packaged at that factory, and the brands associated with each set at that factory. (As with T206s, some of the popular sets had certain brands packaged at some factories but not others.) Factories 25, 30, and 649 appear to have been among the busiest factories for packing tobacco cards, though some of the busiest factories, such as 7 and 593, did not package T206s. Factory 6 appears to have been used for various brands of scrap tobacco, and Factory 17 for cigars.

Factory 25 (Piedmont, American Beauty, Broad Leaf, Cycle, Drum, Sweet Caporal, Sovereign, Carolina Brights, Old Mill)
T27 Actress Series (Fatima)
T32 Artistic Pictures (Richmond Straight Cut)
T42 Bird Series (Cycle, Old Mill, Sovereign, Piedmont, Sweet Caporal)
T58 Fish Series (Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, Sovereign)
T59 Flags of All Nations (Hustler, Recruit, Sweet Caporal Little Cigars)
T86 Moving Picture Stars Series (Egyptian Oasis)
T97 Riddle Series (Perfection)
T106 State Girls Series (Fatima, Richmond Straight Cut)
T119 World Scenes and Portraits (Piedmont)

Factory 30 (Sweet Caporal, Tolstoi, Uzit, Lenox)
T29 Animals (Hassan)
T30 Arctic Scenes (Hassan)
T35 Ask Dad (Sweet Caporal)
T36 Auto-Drivers (Hassan, Mecca)
T42 Bird Series (Mecca)
T43 Bird Series (Mecca)
T53 Cowboy Series (Hassan)
T54 Cross Stitch (Egyptienne Straights)
T56 Emblem Series (Hassan)
T57 Fable Series (Turkish Trophies)
T58 Fish Series (Sweet Caporal)
T69 Historic Homes (Helmar)
T73 Indian Life in the 60s (Hassan)
T76 Jigsaw Puzzle Pictures (Turkish Trophies)
T77 Lighthouse Series (Hassan)
T79 Military Series (Tolstoi, Lenox)
T80 Military Series (Tolstoi, Lenox, Uzit, Cairo Monopol)
T88 Mutt & Jeff Series (Sweet Caporal Cigarettes, Sovereign Little Cigars, Sovereign Cigarettes)
T97 Riddle Series (Perfection)
T107 Seals and Coats of Arms (Helmar)
T118 The World's Greatest Explorers (Hassan)
T121 World War I Scenes (Sweet Caporal)

Factory 42 (Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, American Beauty)
T42 Bird Series (Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, American Beauty)
T97 Riddle Series (Perfection)
T106 State Girls Series (Perfection)
T114 Up To Date Comics (Fore 'n' Aft)
T119 World Scenes and Portraits (Piedmont)

Factory 17 (El Principe De Gales)
T68 Heroes of History/Men of History (Royal Bengals Cigars)
T70 Historical Events Series (Flexo Giants, Buffo Grand/Poncico/Le Roy Breva/Le Roy Major)
T99 Sights and Scenes of the World (Royal Bengals Cigars)

Factory 6 (Polar Bear)
T59 Flags of All Nations (Scrap Iron Scrap)
T68 Heroes of History/Men of History (Natural Leaf Scrap)
T99 Sights and Scenes of the World (Pah Handle Scrap)
T105 Assorted Standard Bearers (Honest Scrap)
T113 Types of Nations (Scrap Iron Scrap)

Factory 33 (Ty Cobb)
None

Factory 649 (Hindu, Sweet Caporal)
T25 Actors (Between the Acts)
T29 Animals (Hassan)
T30 Arctic Scenes (Hassan)
T36 Auto-Drivers (Hassan, Mecca)
T38 The Aviators (Tokio and Mezzin)
T42 Bird Series (Emblem, Mecca)
T43 Bird Series (Mecca)
T53 Cowboy Series (Hassan)
T56 Emblem Series (Hassan, Emblem)
T59 Flags of All Nations (Jack Rose, Sub Rosa Cigarros)
T73 Indian Life in the 60s (Hassan)
T77 Lighthouse Series (Hassan)
T79 Military Series (Fez)
T88 Mutt & Jeff Series (Silko, Sovereign)
T108 Theatres Old and New Series (Between the Acts)
T118 The World's Greatest Explorers (Hassan)

Factory 3 (T213 Coupon Type 1)
T82 Series of Movie Stars (Coupon)(also printed with Recruit and Athletic backs, which were packed at Factory 240, 1st District Pennsylvania)
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  #11  
Old 09-29-2015, 07:53 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jl9999 View Post
Is there any rhyme or reason to how players were selected for a particular back? I know that with the more common backs you can pretty much be assured that essentially every player would have one of those backs. I find it odd though how some of the best players of the day aren't found on some of the rarer backs. Obviously back then they didn't have the hindsight that we do in regards to this person and that person being in the hall of fame but it would still stand to reason that it would simply be good business to have the best players represented preferentially on ALL of the back variations not just a smattering here and there.
It makes no sense to me why some of the more mediocre players would be representing Drum, Uzit or some other rarer back while many of the best players of the era were not.

150 Series.....Essentially the major Stars (future HOFers) and veteran ballplayers were selected for this 1st series of T206's. The flagship brand of the American Tobacco Co.
circa 1909-1911 was the PIEDMONT brand. Therefore, approx. 50 % of the T206's were printed with this back. Followed by the SWEET CAPORAL and the SOVEREIGN brands.
And, to a lesser degree the HINDU brand.

350 Series.....As more Major League ballplayers (of lesser note) and the Minor Leaguers were added in this 2nd series, so were more T-brands added to the mix (AMERICAN
BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE, DRUM, EL PRINCIPE DE GALES, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, TOLSTOI)

460 Series.....In this last series many earlier ballplayers are featured, but with new teams. Rookies were also included. Plus 5 new backs were added to the mix (AMERICAN
BEAUTY 460, LENOX, red HINDU, PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42, UZIT)

My point is this....105 years ago, there was no way of knowing what we know now. American Lithographic produced pre-printed sheets of T206 fronts first. Then the tobacco
advertising backs were printed 2nd on these sheets, as the orders for T206 cards were received from the various tobacco factory's.

So, for example......the green portrait Cobb, printed in the 150 Series, will NOT be found with a DRUM or UZIT back. The red portrait Cobb, initially printed in the 350 Series,
will be found with a DRUM back. The red portrait Cobb was also printed in the 460 Series; but, will not be found with the UZIT back. The printing of T206's is a very complex
process which requires much study to fully understand it.


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 10-01-2015 at 12:33 AM.
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