OT: Greatest Living Four

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by rats60

The years they pitched together, Koufax led the NL in wins 2 times, tied with Marichal once, Marichal never led the league by himself. Koufax led in era 5 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in strike outs 4 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in FIP 6 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in WHIP 4 times, Marichal 1. Koufax led in Ks/9 6 times, Marichal 0.

You say strike outs and era are comparable? Marichal's high for Ks was 248. Koufax had seasons of 382, 317, and 306. Ks/9 Koufax 9.3 Marichal 5.9. Marichal's best era was 2.13. Koufax's last 4 seasons were 1.88, 1.74, 2.04 and 1.73. How are those comparable? There is good reason why Koufax won 3 Cy Youngs, 1 MVP, 2 MVP runner-ups and 2 World Series MVPs during those years and Marichal didn't get a single Cy Young vote.

Sandy Koufax's standing amongst baseballs greatest pitchers ever will always be a huge conundrum with no definitive resolution in sight. While he is the irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever (1963 - 1966), his overall standing is marred with question marks. First & foremost is the fact that he excelled in the most formidable decade ever for pitchers. Through 1968, the 15 inch mound was a major reason for some of the most incredible single season pitching performances. It wasn't until they lowered the rubber to 10 inches in 1969 that a somewhat equal balance was restored. Additionally, how about Koufax's first 7 seasons which were extremely poor to average at best? How do you truly measure his extreme success vs. His extreme failures over a 7 year period? It all comes down to establishing an equitable balance between longevity and peak success and, sorry to say, Koufax falls short on this basis to the likes of Seaver. Carlton, Palmer, Johnson, Maddux, etc. That is why the JAWS concept of rating players is widely accepted by many experts for it measures a players career WAR AT 50% and his best 7 seasons at the remains 50% , thus combining peak value and longevity. Interestingly enough, excluding the cheater Roger Clemens, Seaver leads all post-WW II pitchers in both WAR & JAWS with Maddux and Johnson right behind Seaver. Simply srated, an incredible 4/5 year run that ranks as the finest ever is still not formidable enough to place a pitcher as king of the hill when it is not coupled with ANY additional formidable seasons.

[packs]

There are only 3 pitchers in history to have won the Triple Crown three times:

Sandy Koufax
Walter Johnson
Grover Cleveland Alexander

Those three names belong together. Juan Marichal does not.

[Orioles1954]

Cal, Brooks, Eddie and Palmer. What can I say? I'm a homer!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Sandy Koufax's standing amongst baseballs greatest pitchers ever will always be a huge conundrum with no definitive resolution in sight. While he is the irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever (1963 - 1966), his overall standing is marred with question marks. First & foremost is the fact that he excelled in the most formidable decade ever for pitchers. Through 1968, the 15 inch mound was a major reason for some of the most incredible single season pitching performances. It wasn't until they lowered the rubber to 10 inches in 1969 that a somewhat equal balance was restored. Additionally, how about Koufax's first 7 seasons which were extremely poor to average at best? How do you truly measure his extreme success vs. His extreme failures over a 7 year period? It all comes down to establishing an equitable balance between longevity and peak success and, sorry to say, Koufax falls short on this basis to the likes of Seaver. Carlton, Palmer, Johnson, Maddux, etc. That is why the JAWS concept of rating players is widely accepted by many experts for it measures a players career WAR AT 50% and his best 7 seasons at the remains 50% , thus combining peak value and longevity. Interestingly enough, excluding the cheater Roger Clemens, Seaver leads all post-WW II pitchers in both WAR & JAWS with Maddux and Johnson right behind Seaver. Simply srated, an incredible 4/5 year run that ranks as the finest ever is still not formidable enough to place a pitcher as king of the hill when it is not coupled with ANY additional formidable seasons.

That's your opinion. I was able to watch Koufax pitch. He was the best I've ever seen. His performance over those 4-5 seasons along with his brilliance in the post season make it easy for me to say he was the best pitcher of the modern era and the greatest lefty of all time.

You simply can't use JAWS for Koufax. First of all, bringing up his early years makes me question your knowledge of baseball history. In 1954, the Dodgers signed a player named Roberto Clemente as a bonus baby. Because they sent him to the minors, the Pirates were able to draft him that fall from the Dodgers. So, when the Dodgers signed Sandy Koufax in 1955, they weren't going to repeat that mistake. Koufax couldn't be sent to the minors. Unlike Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, etc. , Koufax couldn't develop pitching against weak competition, he had to pitch against the best and his stats suffered.

Second, we don't know what Koufax would have done after 1966. He didn't have access to the modern medicine of today and chose to retire in his prime. There is no doubt in my mind that if he had chosen career over long term health, he would have continued to be the best pitcher in baseball, winning Cy Youngs, MVPS and World Championships and this wouldn't even be a debate.

[Wayne]

I would go with
Nolan Ryan
Hank Aaron
Cal Ripken
Willie Mays

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by rats60

That's your opinion. I was able to watch Koufax pitch. He was the best I've ever seen. His performance over those 4-5 seasons along with his brilliance in the post season make it easy for me to say he was the best pitcher of the modern era and the greatest lefty of all time.

You simply can't use JAWS for Koufax. First of all, bringing up his early years makes me question your knowledge of baseball history. In 1954, the Dodgers signed a player named Roberto Clemente as a bonus baby. Because they sent him to the minors, the Pirates were able to draft him that fall from the Dodgers. So, when the Dodgers signed Sandy Koufax in 1955, they weren't going to repeat that mistake. Koufax couldn't be sent to the minors. Unlike Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, etc. , Koufax couldn't develop pitching against weak competition, he had to pitch against the best and his stats suffered.

Second, we don't know what Koufax would have done after 1966. He didn't have access to the modern medicine of today and chose to retire in his prime. There is no doubt in my mind that if he had chosen career over long term health, he would have continued to be the best pitcher in baseball, winning Cy Youngs, MVPS and World Championships and this wouldn't even be a debate.

Never said he wasn't the best pitcher at his best....unquestionably the best peak value pitcher ever. But when iconic pitchers such as Seaver, Maddux, Johnson and Palmer, just to mention a few are performing at a superior level for 10-15 years, a 5 year pitcher cannot be rated ahead of them.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by rats60

That's your opinion. I was able to watch Koufax pitch. He was the best I've ever seen. His performance over those 4-5 seasons along with his brilliance in the post season make it easy for me to say he was the best pitcher of the modern era and the greatest lefty of all time.

You simply can't use JAWS for Koufax. First of all, bringing up his early years makes me question your knowledge of baseball history. In 1954, the Dodgers signed a player named Roberto Clemente as a bonus baby. Because they sent him to the minors, the Pirates were able to draft him that fall from the Dodgers. So, when the Dodgers signed Sandy Koufax in 1955, they weren't going to repeat that mistake. Koufax couldn't be sent to the minors. Unlike Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, etc. , Koufax couldn't develop pitching against weak competition, he had to pitch against the best and his stats suffered.

Second, we don't know what Koufax would have done after 1966. He didn't have access to the modern medicine of today and chose to retire in his prime. There is no doubt in my mind that if he had chosen career over long term health, he would have continued to be the best pitcher in baseball, winning Cy Youngs, MVPS and World Championships and this wouldn't even be a debate.

Question my knowledge of baseball? Where did that come from genius? Fyi, Tom Seaver spent ONE season in AAA before being called up by the WORST team in baseball and won an incredible 16 games with a very bad '67 Mets team. It took Koufax 7 seasons to figure it out. If you can pitch, you can pitch. Bob Feller came to the majors virtually right out of high school and was blowing away hitters his first season.....your serve!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Question my knowledge of baseball? Where did that come from genius? Fyi, Tom Seaver spent ONE season in AAA before being called up by the WORST team in baseball and won an incredible 16 games with a very bad '67 Mets team. It took Koufax 7 seasons to figure it out. If you can pitch, you can pitch. Bob Feller came to the majors virtually right out of high school and was blowing away hitters his first season.....your serve!!!

If memory serves Dwight Gooden was tearing through major league batters at a very tender age. I hardly think Koufax's career path can be attributed to not being in the minors. It took him until his 7th year to find his control, reportedly because someone -- one of the catchers -- finally figured out he was overthrowing.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Question my knowledge of baseball? Where did that come from genius? Fyi, Tom Seaver spent ONE season in AAA before being called up by the WORST team in baseball and won an incredible 16 games with a very bad '67 Mets team. It took Koufax 7 seasons to figure it out. If you can pitch, you can pitch. Bob Feller came to the majors virtually right out of high school and was blowing away hitters his first season.....your serve!!!

And Tom Seaver went straight from high school to one season in the minors to the Mets? Could have fooled me. I thought he pitched in college for USC. I guess you don't know as much as you thought or were you just being deceptive thinking I didn't know that?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by rats60

And Tom Seaver went straight from high school to one season in the minors to the Mets? Could have fooled me. I thought he pitched in college for USC. I guess you don't know as much as you thought or were you just being deceptive thinking I didn't know that?

In fairness, you just made up the part about Seaver going straight from high school to the minors.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by rats60

And Tom Seaver went straight from high school to one season in the minors to the Mets? Could have fooled me. I thought he pitched in college for USC. I guess you don't know as much as you thought or were you just being deceptive thinking I didn't know that?

Never said he did genius. Just pointing out that at a MAJOR LEAGUE level, a 22/23 year old Seaver figured it out right away and didn't need "breaking in" with a horrible team. Seaver posted an incredible 2.48 ERA AFTER 10 SEASONS and 2.60 ERA AFTER 15 SEASONS!!! After 12 seasons & retirement, Koufax wax 2.76 n the finest era for pitchers since WWI??? Koufax definitely the more dominate pitcher at his best but over a career he falls short!

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Sandy Koufax's standing amongst baseballs greatest pitchers ever will always be a huge conundrum with no definitive resolution in sight. While he is the irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever (1963 - 1966), his overall standing is marred with question marks. First & foremost is the fact that he excelled in the most formidable decade ever for pitchers. Through 1968, the 15 inch mound was a major reason for some of the most incredible single season pitching performances. It wasn't until they lowered the rubber to 10 inches in 1969 that a somewhat equal balance was restored. Additionally, how about Koufax's first 7 seasons which were extremely poor to average at best? How do you truly measure his extreme success vs. His extreme failures over a 7 year period? It all comes down to establishing an equitable balance between longevity and peak success and, sorry to say, Koufax falls short on this basis to the likes of Seaver. Carlton, Palmer, Johnson, Maddux, etc. That is why the JAWS concept of rating players is widely accepted by many experts for it measures a players career WAR AT 50% and his best 7 seasons at the remains 50% , thus combining peak value and longevity. Interestingly enough, excluding the cheater Roger Clemens, Seaver leads all post-WW II pitchers in both WAR & JAWS with Maddux and Johnson right behind Seaver. Simply srated, an incredible 4/5 year run that ranks as the finest ever is still not formidable enough to place a pitcher as king of the hill when it is not coupled with ANY additional formidable seasons.

I have an issue with the "irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever" statement. Why is Koufax' 4 years better than Lefty Grove's 1930-33? In fact, look at Grove's WAR for pitchers from 1930-1937, or even 1928-1937. NOBODY touches that dominance, not even a roided-up Clemens. Take what Grove did during the biggest hitter's era until the late 90's and move him into the pitching-friendly 60's, and he'd crush anyone.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I have an issue with the "irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever" statement. Why is Koufax' 4 years better than Lefty Grove's 1930-33? In fact, look at Grove's WAR for pitchers from 1930-1937, or even 1928-1937. NOBODY touches that dominance, not even a roided-up Clemens. Take what Grove did during the biggest hitter's era until the late 90's and move him into the pitching-friendly 60's, and he'd crush anyone.

Johnson and Alexander had some unbelievable 4 year stretches that I would bet rival Koufax statistically. on an era adjusted basis

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Johnson and Alexander had some unbelievable 4 year stretches that I would bet rival Koufax statistically. on an era adjusted basis

Agreed. What I would give to go back 100 years ago, when Walter and Old Pete were absolutely dominating baseball.

[packs]

Don't forget the dominance of Big Ed Walsh either. From 1908 to 1912 he won 127 games with a 1.71 ERA and gave up 400 less hits than innings pitched.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I have an issue with the "irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever" statement. Why is Koufax' 4 years better than Lefty Grove's 1930-33? In fact, look at Grove's WAR for pitchers from 1930-1937, or even 1928-1937. NOBODY touches that dominance, not even a roided-up Clemens. Take what Grove did during the biggest hitter's era until the late 90's and move him into the pitching-friendly 60's, and he'd crush anyone.

In that 4 year period, Koufax averaged an ERA of approximately 1.90 along with 300+ strikeouts a year! Not even Grove posted numbers like that at his best. However, you make a SUPER point regarding the fact Grove's great seasons were during a hitters era vs. Koufax's prime being in a pitcher's era. Very Interesting!

[scottglevy]

Kind of a shame that none of the newer folks make a compelling enough case to be strongly considered for this list ... with the exception of Maddux or as a stretch Jeter IMO.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by scottglevy

Kind of a shame that none of the newer folks make a compelling enough case to be strongly considered for this list ... with the exception of Maddux or as a stretch Jeter IMO.

I think a lot of this has to do with nostalgia. Pedro had a sub 2 ERA in the year 2000, a year with the highest amount of run production since I believe the 30s. He had an ERA+ of almost 300. Rickey is first all time in steals and runs, while being second in walks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

I think a lot of this has to do with nostalgia. Pedro had a sub 2 ERA in the year 2000, a year with the highest amount of run production since I believe the 30s. He had an ERA+ of almost 300. Rickey is first all time in steals and runs, while being second in walks.

But for steroids, Bonds and ARod and maybe Pujols would merit very serious consideration as just as good as Mays and Aaron etc. Griffey too if he hadn't fallen off the cliff quite so young. So I don't think it's only nostalgia but the steroid era.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But for steroids, Bonds and ARod and maybe Pujols would merit very serious consideration as just as good as Mays and Aaron etc. Griffey too if he hadn't fallen off the cliff quite so young. So I don't think it's only nostalgia but the steroid era.

I know, which is why we should give even greater respect for the pitchers who made it through the juiced era, obviously if they too are clean Clemens *cough. Maddux, Rivera, Pedro and Johnson all deserve to be in contention for top 4 living, and probably at least one should be on the list.

[SteveMitchell]

My greatest living list: Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson, Berra and Bench.

As for pitchers, I would like to associate my remarks with Vintageclout. I believe a greatest living pitcher ought to have a substantial (including lengthy) body of work by such men as Seaver, Maddux and Randy Johnson.

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Sandy Koufax's standing amongst baseballs greatest pitchers ever will always be a huge conundrum with no definitive resolution in sight. While he is the irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever (1963 - 1966), his overall standing is marred with question marks. First & foremost is the fact that he excelled in the most formidable decade ever for pitchers. Through 1968, the 15 inch mound was a major reason for some of the most incredible single season pitching performances. It wasn't until they lowered the rubber to 10 inches in 1969 that a somewhat equal balance was restored. Additionally, how about Koufax's first 7 seasons which were extremely poor to average at best? How do you truly measure his extreme success vs. His extreme failures over a 7 year period? It all comes down to establishing an equitable balance between longevity and peak success and, sorry to say, Koufax falls short on this basis to the likes of Seaver. Carlton, Palmer, Johnson, Maddux, etc. That is why the JAWS concept of rating players is widely accepted by many experts for it measures a players career WAR AT 50% and his best 7 seasons at the remains 50% , thus combining peak value and longevity. Interestingly enough, excluding the cheater Roger Clemens, Seaver leads all post-WW II pitchers in both WAR & JAWS with Maddux and Johnson right behind Seaver. Simply srated, an incredible 4/5 year run that ranks as the finest ever is still not formidable enough to place a pitcher as king of the hill when it is not coupled with ANY additional formidable seasons.

and

"Never said he wasn't the best pitcher at his best....unquestionably the best peak value pitcher ever. But when iconic pitchers such as Seaver, Maddux, Johnson and Palmer, just to mention a few are performing at a superior level for 10-15 years, a 5 year pitcher cannot be rated ahead of them."

[bigtrain]

As I am old enough to have seen Mays, Aaron and those of that era in the prime of their careers, I would have at least a half dozen players ahead of Bench. The list would start with Yogi Berra, who I consider the greatest catcher of all time. Frank Robinson, Seaver, Schmidt, Maddux come to mind immediately.