OT - Patriots Deflate Report

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

Said the Joker to the Thief...

I thought he said "There must be some kind of way out of here"?

Thanks for lightening the mood Denny. It's only sports. As a Pats fan, I don't care, but I respect everyone else's opinion that the Pats are big fat cheaters. I'll tell you one thing...it beats the sh*t out of the first 40 years of the franchise's history, so I'm not complaining about anything... thanks God it's Friday and Happy Mother's Day to all the moms out there!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

100 seconds is enough time to go into the bathroom, take out 10 balls, ACCURATELY deflate them to 11.5, replace them, and come back out?

[Brian Van Horn]

Guys, the way I figure it this matter is only at halftime. The next step is the punishment phase and then........drum roll please.......lawyers.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Guys, the way I figure it this matter is only at halftime. The next step is the punishment phase and then........drum roll please.......lawyers.

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."

Shakespeare's King Henry VI

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Who knows if the deflation gave them a competitive advantage or was simply a result of testing the balls. What matters is that they, mainly Brady, clearly lied to investigators about knowledge of efforts to deflate footballs. That is what requires some amount of disciplinary action on the part of the NFL.

It will never happen. Why would the NFL " discipline " Brady? You can't fine him, and he certainly won't be required to miss games during the season. He will cost the NFL too much money if they suspend him for regular season games. Like him or not, Brady is still a HoF QB, and still would have won the games the Pats won and lost the games the Pats lost regardless of the football inflation. Again, most are making WAY too much out of a football that has been under inflated.

That said, what do your REASONABLY suggest in terms of a " discipline " for Brady.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

100 seconds is enough time to go into the bathroom, take out 10 balls, ACCURATELY deflate them to 11.5, replace them, and come back out?

They weren't accurately deflated. It was haphazard and they varied in pressure. That's described in the report to refute the "it was the atmosphere" defense.

Oh, btw, I'm a Patriots fan - and a big Brady fan - and I'm disappointed in their actions.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Leon

That will go down in history as possibly the worst call of all time. I couldn't believe it. Carroll should be proud of himself.

And even with that call, if Wilson makes a good throw, Seattle scores.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

It will never happen. Why would the NFL " discipline " Brady? You can't fine him, and he certainly won't be required to miss games during the season. He will cost the NFL too much money if they suspend him for regular season games. Like him or not, Brady is still a HoF QB, and still would have won the games the Pats won and lost the games the Pats lost regardless of the football inflation. Again, most are making WAY too much out of a football that has been under inflated.

That said, what do your REASONABLY suggest in terms of a " discipline " for Brady.

The NFL only cares about perceptions and not justice. After receiving some black eyes from the Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson situations they'll come down hard on Brady. My guess is suspension of 2-4 games and loss of a draft pick(s).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

The NFL only cares about perceptions and not justice. After receiving some black eyes from the Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson situations they'll come down hard on Brady. My guess is suspension of 2-4 games and loss of a draft pick(s).

Yeah, compared to knocking a woman senseless or beating a kid, "probably" knowing someone took a little air out of the football is a big deal. The resources devoted to this, as opposed to fixing the real problems in football (rampant domestic violence, concussions, etc.) is ridiculous.

[nolemmings]

It is about perception, and integrity of the game. IMO, people have at least a slight understanding that the NFL cannot very easily control players' lives off the field and that violence is a societal issue which, while PC demands an unforgiving, who-can-be-the-most outraged response, is often very complicated in its circumstances. People may wish to see nothing but choirboys, role models and medal of honor winners all over the field but, falling short of that, they at least believe and generally insist upon watching something where the flawed humans are engaged in a contest with common equipment and basic rules designed to create an even playing field. They are not necessarily Pollyannaish to think players are not trying to grab an edge, but nonetheless do not look kindly on rules breakers, especially those who show no contrition. If the game isn't fair and square, and if the League doesn't act as if its rules are all that important, there is both disgust and distrust at the game going forward.

My two cents.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah, compared to knocking a woman senseless or beating a kid, "probably" knowing someone took a little air out of the football is a big deal. The resources devoted to this, as opposed to fixing the real problems in football (rampant domestic violence, concussions, etc.) is ridiculous.

Track record and lying.

[yanks12025]

I sure love the hypocritical Pat fans. They're just like their team and will deny, deny, deny no matter what. Their team gets caught cheating and they just make excuses for them cheating saying it didn't matter anyway because they scored so many points. Even though if you read the text messages, it's pretty clear they've been messing with the balls for months.

In a patriot fans mind, it's ok for their team to cheat but if another team cheats, they get yelled at and everything.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Track record and lying.

And I agree with what Todd said -- there's a limit to how much control the NFL can have over players' personal lives. But if they suspended Hardy 10 games for beating his girlfriend is that worse than cheating (again) during games? One act is personally disgusting, the other harms the game's integrity. Suspend Brady for the same 10 games and you can be damned sure the Pats stop cheating.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And concussions and suicides and all the wrecked brains and bodies of former players -- is that beyond the league's control too? Not nearly so important as one PSI taken out of a football.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

It is about perception, and integrity of the game. IMO, people have at least a slight understanding that the NFL cannot very easily control players' lives off the field and that violence is a societal issue which, while PC demands an unforgiving, who-can-be-the-most outraged response, is often very complicated in its circumstances. People may wish to see nothing but choirboys, role models and medal of honor winners all over the field but, falling short of that, they at least believe and generally insist upon watching something where the flawed humans are engaged in a contest with common equipment and basic rules designed to create an even playing field. They are not necessarily Pollyannaish to think players are not trying to grab an edge, but nonetheless do not look kindly on rules breakers, especially those who show no contrition. If the game isn't fair and square, and if the League doesn't act as if its rules are all that important, there is both disgust and distrust at the game going forward.

My two cents.

Do you think there is a lineman in the game who doesn't try frequently to get away with illegal holds/blocks/etc.? Are you supposed to show contrition by your logic every time you are penalized?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And concussions and suicides and all the wrecked brains and bodies of former players -- is that beyond the league's control too? Not nearly so important as one PSI taken out of a football.

Wrecked brains are collateral damage of a violent sport -- for better or worse. Cheating damages the game. I personally don't think what he did was that bad but Brady will and should be punished. It's very simple in professional sports: if you cheat don't get caught. If you get caught you get punished because otherwise the integrity of the game is in question.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Wrecked brains are collateral damage of a violent sport -- for better or worse. Cheating damages the game. I personally don't think what he did was that bad but Brady will and should be punished. It's very simple in professional sports: if you cheat don't get caught. If you get caught you get punished because otherwise the integrity of the game is in question.

Wrecked brains are in part a consequence of the league not giving a damn enough over the years to consider things that have been recommended by numerous experts that might improve the situation. As for Brady, sure, let the punishment fit the crime though, which ain't much of a crime.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by calvindog

The NFL only cares about perceptions and not justice. After receiving some black eyes from the Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson situations they'll come down hard on Brady. My guess is suspension of 2-4 games and loss of a draft pick(s).

With all due respect, I would be shocked if that happened. See below everyone..

http://mmqb.si.com/2015/05/08/nfl-in...pressure-rule/

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...own-footballs/

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by calvindog

The NFL only cares about perceptions and not justice.

10000% agree with this statement. The very nice bi-product of this story for the league though is that every minute of airtime this story gets (and it will get lots), it deflects attention from any/all of the league's other serious issues.

To prior comments about concussions, the blind eye the league's turned toward this and other player disabilities is disgraceful. IMO, it's in line with the "doctors" who for years denied that smoking increased one's risk for cancer. Also love that the guy who headed the NFL's concussion research was a rheumatologist. I'm sure he's a smart guy, but they didn't think a neurologist may be more qualified??

Don't get me wrong, I love football.. loved playing, love watching.. but think the NFL is a pretty disgusting entity overall. The NCAA is right behind it.

There's plenty of info out there, but felt the below old snippet (2006) from the LA Times summed it up nicely. It's amazing how long the league's been able to mostly deflect this topic, and their bogus doctors and studies have helped the cause. IMO- letting some air out of balls doesn't sniff this (nor any number of other issues, including salary cap violations, added stadium noise, etc) in importance. But IMO the NFL PR men say-- "YES!! Please keep talking about Deflate Gate all off-season, please please!!"

Concussions, it seems, are the NFL's dirty little secret. It's not just that they happen so often, but that the league doesn't seem to be doing much about it.

Sure, the NFL says it has had a committee of doctors studying them since 1994. But experts in the field say the league's studies are flawed, use suspect data, and don't stand up to peer review.

So when the NFL says no evidence has been found that brain function declines as a result of a concussion, the news is greeted with skepticism in the medical community.

"What the NFL allegedly finds is totally at odds with scores of publications that are out there," said Dr. Robert Cantu, a neurologist and leading expert in brain injuries at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston. "The stuff the NFL is putting out is just not the way the thinking is in the community of sports medicine and specialists with expertise in this area."

[steve B]

So as a Pats fan............

When the whole thing began I figured there was a technical explanation.

But, between the texts and the odd pattern of Brady all of a sudden communicating with the equipment guys he hasn't called for months and calling one into what's essentially his office which hadn't happened since before Brady - something like 20 years.

That to me looks very much like something was up.

Enough that there should probably be some punishment.

The guesses on the radio station I listen to - Rock, not sports, was that it would be one game for Brady, he'd appeal until after the season opener, then take his one game off. The rumor was that a "source" in the league office said 4 games for Brady. All with the team and Coach in the clear since there was no evidence they knew about it (Since the NFL spent big bucks checking I'll go with that even though I don't believe it) And I think either would be entirely appropriate.

-------------------
The other side of how I feel about it.

The rule isn't well written, either from a technical standpoint or from a clarity standpoint. It doesn't actually say the balls have to remain inflated - except the home team has a responsibility to provide "playable" balls at all times. 12 primary ones and 12 backups which apparently weren't used and possibly weren't deflated. And it mentions no penalty. Except in a totally different section where the commissioner can investigate and punish "extraordinarily unfair acts" - To me also vague. What's extraordinarily unfair as opposed to just unfair or sort of unfair? Could I put together a team of lazy guys and then say it's extraordinarily unfair they have to play a team that practices? Yeah, a bit over the top but it makes the point.

From everything I've read it seems the handling of the balls is very lax, and even the refs might push the limits. The one text complaining about the refs making some of the balls more like 16 psi is interesting. Did they just pump them up by feel, or did they know some would be let out and cover for it by deliberately overinflating? And if that's the case that crew should get the same suspension.
-----------------
In a more general sense-

I've never bought the NCAA style stripping of titles for a team sport. It makes some sense with individual sports where it's more clear the winner wouldn't have won without cheating. Lance should have been stripped of his 7 wins. without doping he probably wouldn't have won all of them. He might have won a couple, but not all 7. Oddly, a few of those years there isn't a clean rider for several positions. If you figure they were always on something you'd have to remove a few riders. I also think there were people at the top of the UCI that should have also been banned. The one statement another rider made that someone came in and said "the test was positive but Nike took care of it" to me is very telling.

But for a team sport? Nonsense. Stripping a college team of a title because one really good player gets some cash from a booster, or a job, or someone does a bit of recruiting at the wrong time very much does a disservice the rest of the team, especially the second stringers who worked just as hard sometimes knowing that the only way they'd see the inside of a pro stadium was as a spectator. And all at the same time they're making millions from the kids who aren't allowed to make anything if there's any connection to the team at all.


Steve B

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

My guess is suspension of 2-4 games and loss of a draft pick(s).

And you would be right, sir...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12...ts-deflategate

Edited to add: And a $1M fine.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Two games when Ray Rice knocks a woman senseless, nothing in response to numerous prior reports of domestic violence, nothing in response to littered bodies and brains everywhere (just ask Dr. Robert Cantu), and four games for "probably" knowing a football was slightly deflated. The NFL is really bleeped up.

[William Todd]

+1

[iwantitiwinit]

12-4 should still be good enough to win the AFC East next year. Losing the 32nd pick shouldn't hurt too much either.

[baseball tourist]

Go Dolphins!

[calvindog]

Again, all the NFL cares about is money and the perception that the Pats cheated in the playoffs was enough to make the commissioner freak out. Heating up the balls illegally on the sideline? 25K fine because the press didn't run with it. Brady messing with the balls? He's 1/4 Paul Hornug-ed.

[yanks12025]

Love the Pat fans finding any excuse to defend their cheating quarterback.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Two games when Ray Rice knocks a woman senseless, nothing in response to numerous prior reports of domestic violence, nothing in response to littered bodies and brains everywhere (just ask Dr. Robert Cantu), and four games for "probably" knowing a football was slightly deflated. The NFL is really bleeped up.

My sentiments exactly. Rice wipes the floor with his fiance and gets a shorter suspension than a guy who plays with slightly deflated footballs. What a crock. Goodall must go!

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

In my opinion, based on the league findings, the Patriots victory in the playoff game tarnished with the deflated footballs should mean that the Patriots forfeit that win. Thus, they lose their Super Bowl victory over Seattle as they obviously won't have been in the game to begin with. That's what happens to Olympic gold medalists that have been found to have cheated.

That would put a stop to this type of thing happening again in the future real fast. Forget about a small fine on the team and/or Tom Brady. Maybe disqualifying them from postseason play in the 2015-2016 season might do the trick as well..........

Can't stand FOOOSEEEBALL. It's a league full of criminals. It's boring and there's about 6 minutes of actual gameplay the rest is watching the sidelines horrible commercials and overgrown guys who get away with steroids on the phone.

That said things like this help make me hate it even more. I totally agree they should forfeit the win. THEY CHEATED. So they just get a slap on the wrist gotta love Goodell.

[William Todd]

I agree with Barry, some penalty is warranted, but what about what other teams do.

[nolemmings]

Again, all the NFL cares about is money and the perception that the Pats cheated in the playoffs was enough to make the commissioner freak out. Heating up the balls illegally on the sideline? 25K fine because the press didn't run with it. Brady messing with the balls? He's 1/4 Paul Hornug-ed.

Not sure if you're referring to the Vikings-Panthers game or some other, but in that game both teams heated the footballs, basically in front of each other on the sidelines during pre-game, with tens of thousands in the stands and the Fox pre-game cameras focused right on them. The difference was not the media, but the fact that such scenario screamed ignorance rather than an intent to deceive, with neither team designed to gain an advantage over the other. Much different than stuff happening down in the tunnel, or the nearby bathroom, deliberately done out of view and with an intent to gain an edge, followed by the QB sand-papering his equipment guys, refusing to turn over records and then giving a "what me?" press conference that his contemporaries pretty much to a man found deceitful.

The Hornung reference is a good one though. There of course two marquee guys get bounced for a whole year for betting on games (not their own) -- acts that had no influence on who actually won. Here, the conduct was specifically designed to help the cheating team win, and yet the one with knowledge and orchestrator of that conduct is suspended for only 1/4 of the season (likely less after appeal), still causing the gnashing of teeth by those who cry railroad. Some could say the firm hand of league integrity is a little wobbly today.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Not sure if you're referring to the Vikings-Panthers game or some other, but in that game both teams heated the footballs, basically in front of each other on the sidelines during pre-game, with tens of thousands in the stands and the Fox pre-game cameras focused right on them. The difference was not the media, but the fact that such scenario screamed ignorance rather than an intent to deceive, with neither team designed to gain an advantage over the other. Much different than stuff happening down in the tunnel, or the nearby bathroom, deliberately done out of view and with an intent to gain an edge, followed by the QB sand-papering his equipment guys, refusing to turn over records and then giving a "what me?" press conference that his contemporaries pretty much to a man found deceitful.

The Hornung reference is a good one though. There of course two marquee guys get bounced for a whole year for betting on games (not their own) -- acts that had no influence on who actually won. Here, the conduct was specifically designed to help the cheating team win, and yet the one with knowledge and orchestrator of that conduct is suspended for only 1/4 of the season (likely less after appeal), still causing the gnashing of teeth by those who cry railroad. Some could say the firm hand of league integrity is a little wobbly today.

I was unaware the heating of the footballs during that game was mostly innocent and with both teams involved.

I suspect Brady will appeal and considering Goodell's horrible luck with the appeal process the number of games suspended will likely go down. But the main reason he keeps losing is because he overreacts with a monster suspension after the media and public cry out over the light sentence he had previously handed out. I don't think Brady's 4 games is an overreaction and I suspect it might stick. Hard to feel sorry for Brady when he lied to the investigators and didn't turn over his phone. He's acting like a criminal in a context which does not include possible criminal penalties. He got what he deserved here.

[nolemmings]

I suspect Brady will appeal and considering Goodell's horrible luck with the appeal process the number of games suspended will likely go down. But the main reason he keeps losing is because he overreacts with a monster suspension after the media and public cry out over the light sentence he had previously handed out. I don't think Brady's 4 games is an overreaction and I suspect it might stick. Hard to feel sorry for Brady when he lied to the investigators and didn't turn over his phone. He's acting like a criminal in a context which does not include possible criminal penalties. He got what he deserved here.

Exactly.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Pretty fair penalty handed out by the NFL, now it has to stick to remain meaningful. Brady's suspension can't get reduced to two games instead of four, otherwise not enough incentive to prevent some other form of cheating by another team in the future. I won't mind seeing the Pats have to forfeit that playoff win but that would leave the NFL in a shambles as to the 2014-2015 playoffs outcome.........No Champion?............What would they do?

[wolf441]

Patriots sign undrafted free agent....

[packs]

I still don't think you can turn back time so they are the champs to me. But I hope that moving forward they will be under the most intense of scrutiny and be embarrassed every weekend when a ref stops play to test the inflation of their footballs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I still don't think you can turn back time so they are the champs to me. But I hope that moving forward they will be under the most intense of scrutiny and be embarrassed every weekend when a ref stops play to test the inflation of their footballs.

The same refs who must have handled the balls dozens of times during the game and not noticed anything amiss?

[packs]

Yes, those refs. Maybe some new ones. I don't know what the NFL's turnover is like.

[steve B]

Having read the excerpts from the letters sent to the team and Brady I think the punishment is just about right. Maybe a bit less so for the team. I'll go with the coach and management not knowing, since the NFL investigation says no. But I'm not sure I believe that. Brady trying to cover stuff up is probably at least two of the four games.

Brady certainly was acting like a guy with something to hide.
But..............He must have some "interesting" stuff on his phone, maybe some pictures he was sent? yeah, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't hand over the phone either I can't imagine Giselle being mad as a good thing.

I do have a few questions though.

My phone shows both sides of the text conversation. But it's windows. Do the other two hide the incoming side after a time? And if not why would they even need Bradys phone after getting the other two?

The next two are partly sarcastic/kidding, partly not.

Two of the Colts balls were also underinflated at halftime. Since we have to believe the refs checked ALL the balls, then the Colts must have deflated a couple too. When is the report on that and the announcement of fines/suspensions ? Or do they claim the pats staff also deflated a couple for the other team? Or just maybe - The refs didn't check all of them?

One of the texts references the refs overinflating some balls to 16 Psi for an earlier game. Can I assume that either 1) They were sort of covering for deflation by overinflating. OR 2) The refs were altering the ball by overinflating and we'll see some fallout from that soon.
Either way those refs were either adversely affecting the team deliberately, or were attempting to cover up cheating with some other cheating.
Neither is acceptable, but I'd be willing to bet there won't be any punishment.

All in all the rule and it's oversight is very poor. But it won't get rewritten, and the equipment used won't get any better.

Steve B

[packs]

The released texts were between equipment managers. I'd imagine Brady doesn't want to release his texts because his texts are between himself and their supervisors, who probably were the ones to filter down the directions. That would also further implicate the team and not just an individual.

[chernieto]

So.....For how long has this been a rule anyway? Did they measure the PSI on the balls in the 20's? 30's? 40's, 50's, 60's ?

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/200...tion-committee

Seems like a whole lot to do about nothing. Read that article from 2006 !!

[nolemmings]

It's what happened in 2006 that makes Brady even less worthy of sympathy. It was that year that NFL quarterbacks, led by Manning and Brady, got the league to change its prior policy of having the home teams supply all the footballs. They argued that they are in essence artists who ought to have some control over the type of ball they throw, and the league agreed, allowing the visitors to bring their own balls. As part of the process, if it didn't already exist, specs were used as to the level of inflation those balls must possess, i.e.,within a certain range of air pressure.

Brady thus has known about the air-pressure rule since at least 2006. At that time he either got all that he wanted, including an acceptable range of PSI, from the NFL, or he at least got his primary wish of using his own team's balls and knew what the limits were on PSI. Either way and both knowing that this was a rule and the process for changing it if he was unhappy, he instead decided on his own that the rule could be discarded and avoided, and acted surreptitiously to do just that.

[kcohen]

If the report exonerates the Patriots of wrongdoing or of having knowledge of what may have happened, how is fining the team and taking draft choices justified?

As to Brady, the report contains a lot of weasel wording (e.g. probably knew) and given the NFL's procedural incompetence regarding ball chain of custody, and an investigative report that is riddled with holes, I think that the suspension will eventually be walked back to two games.

I think the commish overreached here in reaction to the mud on his face from the Ray Rice case.

For the record, not a Pats fan, so I don't have a dog in this race. I'm a Redskins fan, so I don't have a dog in any race

[nolemmings]

If the report exonerates the Patriots of wrongdoing or of having knowledge of what may have happened, how is fining the team and taking draft choices justified?

I don't believe it exonerates the Patriots for the acts of its equipment-handling employees, and team punishment is based on some sort of negligent supervision or other failure to properly oversee their work. IMO, the reason Belichek likely avoided penalties is because although it happened on his watch, the bad acts were performed either by a player (which by definition is not management) and/or by team personnel that he did not hire and control, unlike what happened to Sean Payton, whose hand-picked assistants were at the root of the Bountygate problem.

[rdwyer]

You tell um Joe.

[Brian Van Horn]

Good point, Joe. Now, in a related story, New England just got a new shipment of.....you guessed it......balls:

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by kcohen

If the report exonerates the Patriots of wrongdoing or of having knowledge of what may have happened, how is fining the team and taking draft choices justified?

As to Brady, the report contains a lot of weasel wording (e.g. probably knew) and given the NFL's procedural incompetence regarding ball chain of custody, and an investigative report that is riddled with holes, I think that the suspension will eventually be walked back to two games.

I think the commish overreached here in reaction to the mud on his face from the Ray Rice case.

For the record, not a Pats fan, so I don't have a dog in this race. I'm a Redskins fan, so I don't have a dog in any race

You do know the commish didn't decided on the 4 games.

[frankbmd]

Suspending Brady for four games accomplishes nothing in my opinion.

They should have allowed Brady to play and suspended the offensive line for four games.

[Jewish-collector]

[barrysloate]

On David Letterman last night:

It was so hot in New York today that Tom Brady was deflating footballs just for the breeze.