Spalding, Reach and other cut outs sold on our BST

Runscott · #1 02-27-2014, 01:58 PM

Steve, if you could afford to buy that page from a book, you could afford to buy the entire book. You could then make a hi-res scan of the photo, put it behind glass, and it would be as aesthetically-pleasing (actually, moreso) as the real cut-out page is in a slab. Having the book nearby should satisfy your need to have a piece of history, but if the copy would suffice, you could then sell the book and use the money to help pay your mortgage.

Jeffrompa · #2 02-27-2014, 03:25 PM

I voted no but it made me think about chopping my Benz .

ullmandds · #3 02-27-2014, 03:34 PM

While this concept is appalling to me...similar to cutting a cobb bat or ruth jersey into a million pieces.. I answered the survey based on the premise that this practice cannot be stopped.

but in retrospect I'd like to change my answer to no so as not to promote the buying or selling of this "Stuff."

obcbobd · #4 02-27-2014, 03:42 PM

I voted yes, as long as they are marketed as so, but the more I think of it I'm not comfortable about it. I think destroying a 100+ year old piece of memorabilia is a shame.

Guess I'm kinda disappointed that there is a market for this stuff among our members.

Sigh

Runscott · #5 02-27-2014, 04:01 PM

Pete, Bob - If I saw these pages matted and framed, before I ever handled any of these historical books, I would probably consider buying them. I think it's natural, as they display very nicely. But you could also cut up the Book of Kells into individual pages, or even cut the illuminated areas out of some of the text pages, and they would each be incredible display pieces.

ethicsprof · #6 02-27-2014, 04:13 PM

very well said.
The Book of Kells was just the right choice for showing the import
of keeping hagiography in its original form. What a beautiful wonder this
seminal Irish masterpiece is.
In its own way, the hobby literature we often refer to has its own
sacrosanct place in the halls of scholarship.

all the best,
barry

Runscott · #7 02-27-2014, 04:25 PM

Barry, sadly, ancient illuminated texts ARE being treated the same way as the Reach and Spalding Guides. You can find illuminated pages cut from prayer books, etc., in many auctions these days. The rationale is that a single page is affordable, whereas an entire book would not be. Fortunately that's not the case with Reach and Spalding Guides.

steve B · #8 02-27-2014, 04:32 PM

I voted to allow it as long as they're described correctly.

I also dislike cutting up books or magazines for the plates or other images, but I've handled enough old paper to know there's a lot of it that's already been removed.

I've bought lots of old magazines, mainly two larger batches.

One was a smallish batch of magazines from about 1915-20, Most were national geographics. All of them were worn and missing the covers. They also had a lot of car ads and others which were selling well at the time. The old national geographics in nice condition sell for anywhere from 2-10 dollars now, but at the time they were maybe .50 to a dollar.

The other batch was huge, and came from a person who published a nostalgia magazine. Probably thousands of them ranging from the 1860's to 1940's. Some in excellent condition, some really not. A lot of them had had articles cut out to be used in the magazine or in a book about old fashioned Christmas he put out. There were also boxes full of the cutouts. Unfortunately for me they were almost all womens titles or general interest with nearly no sports at all unless it was by accident. Some of them are valuable, and even some cheap ones aren't common. But titles like "needlework" are under $10 in good condition, less in lots of a few magazines. The ones with covers and articles missing aren't worth much at all. But the back covers are all cream of wheat ads that sell, and one issue has an early ad directed at women for the 1920 presidential election. That one was like finding money in the trash.

Even some good titles like Godeys commonly have the color fashion plate removed. Sometimes for use in something more interesting. One thing I got my wife for Christmas was a Godeys print that had had needlework done over the images so it was a little 3-d ish, done probably in the late 1800's and framed at the time.

Steve B

slidekellyslide · #9 02-27-2014, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

While this concept is appalling to me...similar to cutting a cobb bat or ruth jersey into a million pieces.. I answered the survey based on the premise that this practice cannot be stopped.

but in retrospect I'd like to change my answer to no so as not to promote the buying or selling of this "Stuff."

Me too, but the genie is out of the bottle...I'm not so sure the market is our BST with the attitude towards the practice that most here have, but if we are going to allow it don't clog up the card forums with it, keep it in the Memorabilia BST.

BlueSky · #10 02-27-2014, 05:52 PM

Leon,

Thanks for bringing this topic up. A couple of years ago I inherited a good number of early Spalding, Reach and other guides in various conditions. I have had the pleasure of reading a few of them. Lately, I have been considering selling them, but this discussion has made me think twice. I would hate if someone bought them and in turn rather them enjoying them, cut them up and sold them piecemeal.

I have no problem in folks buying and turning around and selling items, but to destroy something even if it was in poor to fair condition like this one shown really gives me heartburn.

Well, for now I am going to keep them, continue to read and enjoy them. Maybe sometime in the future I will consider selling them, but this discussion will remain in the back of my mind.

Marty

jb217676 · #11 02-27-2014, 06:13 PM

Love that Lajoie book!

EvilKing00 · #12 02-27-2014, 04:22 PM

I voted yes as long as they are described as a cut out. I have bought and sold cutouts from reach and spalding guides and love the ones I own. Some of the images are really nice and they are original baseball memorabilia from those dates.

IMO having a 1915 cutout of ruth on his minor league team, or having a joe Jackson savannah team cut out, and so on are nice pieces to have.

I DO NOT think they should be graded, to me that makes no sense at all. The few I seen graded I stay away from just on principle.

Also I have seen a few ruth flip book pages that were singles graded, lol crazy what some of these Xbrand grading companies grade.

Runscott · #13 02-27-2014, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

I voted yes as long as they are described as a cut out. I have bought and sold cutouts from reach and spalding guides and love the ones I own. Some of the images are really nice and they are original baseball memorabilia from those dates.

IMO having a 1915 cutout of ruth on his minor league team, or having a joe Jackson savannah team cut out, and so on are nice pieces to have.

I DO NOT think they should be graded, to me that makes no sense at all. The few I seen graded I stay away from just on principle.

Also I have seen a few ruth flip book pages that were singles graded, lol crazy what some of these Xbrand grading companies grade.

No, they are not original baseball memorabilia - they are pieces of original baseball memorabilia. Hopefully you are not cutting pictures out of the other books you own.

aelefson · #14 02-27-2014, 04:51 PM

Hi-
I do like how the individual pages display from a guide, but I have never bought one nor will I sell one. I am especially against grading them.
However, I struggle with the display factor regarding old magazines that have nothing relevant to baseball on the cover, but have fascinating pictures inside. I have a flea market dealer who regularly provides me with a pile of old magazines for 1-3.00 each, and each one has a nice baseball article and photos. All are pre 1940, and most that I buy are pre 1920. I have never removed the baseball content, and do not plan to, but storing/displaying the entire publications is much more difficult than if I had pages.
Sometimes, I get completely separated baseball ads and other pages from this dealer. I know he does not separate them, and I know some folks will prefer them that way, and sometimes, I do too. I buy them this way. I feel there is a difference buying like this than the cutouts that started this thread.
Collectors have been cutting up old books at least since the late 1800s. There will always be collectors who prefer the whole, and others who want a piece, whether for display or affordability.
Please note that in regards to the specific pages from old guides selling for any price beyond 5-10.00 is ridiculous in my opinion, unless the item is well matted and framed (like some that were on the BST a few weeks ago).

Alan Elefson

sporteq · #15 02-27-2014, 05:04 PM

Apparently there's a market for them and the description looks honest.. Let him sell.

Albert

MW1 · #16 02-28-2014, 01:37 PM

Absolutely no. Cutouts should not be allowed to be sold either her or on eBay for two compelling reasons:

1. A "cut out" picture is an alteration of the original page it come from. Like an altered sports card, it should not be given a numerical grade, much less encapsulated at all (see below).

2. "Cut outs" are typically produced on thin paper and usually involve rudimentary printing methods. As such, they would be much easier to counterfeit or duplicate than actual sports cards. Allowing these types of items to be sold is like opening Pandora's box. If there's a legitimate demand for such things, collectors would be better off buying the publication and doing the cutting themselves. Sports cards that were produced to be collected and traded are an entirely different entity than paper cut-outs. It's like the difference between a studio portrait and a polaroid.

Edited to add:

I have one other thought on this subject. Many of the cut-outs, particularly those from Spalding and other similar baseball guides, are usually seen in graded holders of some kind. If cut-outs were a legitimate, stand-alone collectible, you would see similar quantities available for sale that were "raw" or ungraded. But you don't. That, to me, is clear evidence that there is an effort on the part of sellers to deceive and that cut-outs themselves, are a contrived collectible.

EvilKing00 · #17 02-27-2014, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

No, they are not original baseball memorabilia - they are pieces of original baseball memorabilia. Hopefully you are not cutting pictures out of the other books you own.

Lol no i dont cut up books, but i did once buy a spalding book that was a mess, covers missing pages missing and falling out that i did remove the pages that were left. Some i keps some i sold. As far a a book in good shape i have 2 of them and would not cut them up.

Runscott · #18 02-27-2014, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Lol no i dont cut up books, but i did once buy a spalding book that was a mess, covers missing pages missing and falling out that i did remove the pages that were left. Some i keps some i sold. As far a a book in good shape i have 2 of them and would not cut them up.

Thanks Steve - that's good to know. As Dan said, the genie is out of the bottle. I am very glad, though, that Leon got this discussion going - at the risk of upsetting a few people, we've at least gotten all of the relevant points on the table.

View Poll Results: Should publication cut outs be allowed to be sold on the BST?
Yes	8	3.56%
No	76	33.78%
Yes, but with stated caveat they are cut outs	113	50.22%
I don't care.	28	12.44%
Voters: 225. You may not vote on this poll

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