Brooklyn CDV

[teetwoohsix]

Link to Fox Sports (AP) write up: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/1...auction-010913

Sincerely, Clayton

[oldjudge]

To me it's amazing how the press picks up a number that an auction house throws out and makes it seem like it is the gospel. If Troy had said a million they would be printing that too. What we have here is an old scarce photograph which, if Corey is right, could be a reproduction of the LOC original, or, if Peter Nash is right, could have come from the NYPL collection( if you get Peter's Halls of Shame email it is in today's edition). I have no idea how valid these concerns are, but that is a lot of questions for a little piece of cardboard to bear and still be advertised in the press as a six figure item. That said, for the sake of SRAs, the consignor, and to add some buzz to the hobby I hope it goes for a gazillion dollars.

[insidethewrapper]

This is really an interesting thread. I don't know much about early photography , but learning on this forum. One question: Have all these early baseball cards and photos etc been donated to the Library of Congress by individuals ? Thanks

[Runscott]

But Jay - haven't you heard? There is a conspiracy theory that skeptics are trying to reduce the value of the card by expressing their concerns about a piece of vintage cardboard, in a vintage cardboard discussion forum

I personally think that the attention that these skeptics have drawn to the card could actually INCREASE the final bid. The original estimate when it was first mentioned here, was around $50,000 I believe. The consignor recently stated that the value had increased to $100,000. Shouldn't the skeptic advertising team get a cut of the difference?

[yanks12025]

"Collectors have also commented that scans of the CDV appear to suggest that the albumen photograph may not have been original to the Williamson Studios mount. Messier’s report did not address this issue and what appears to have been a possible removal of a prior image close to the gilded Williamson identification. Messier removed the card from its SGC-graded holder for his examination and would have been able to determine if the albumen photograph was original to the mount if asked to do so. Messier declined comment on that issue stating he was not authorized by his client to speak beyond what is contained in his written report."

That section is from the haul of shame article. I don't understand why he can't comment on it more besides what's in the report. I know if I was going to be bidding 50-100k I should be able to ask him whatever I want about it after he looked at it. I bet after it sells in feb, it won't be the end up us hearing about it.

[Runscott]

Brock, the people who have the resources and willingness to bid on this are certainly going to try to find out as much as they possibly can about it. This board and the various articles are only some of the resources they have available.

Multiple photography experts are consulted by potential bidders ANY time an item like this becomes available, and discussions abound...behind the scenes. Our board is just a discussion forum and free advertising - nobody will be bidding on this without having done their research, and nothing that we have discussed here has not been discussed ten times as much in private.

If the winning bidder is present at the auction, then the show will be over. On the other hand, if he is not (which would be ridiculous, as the price of a plane ticket is minimal compared to the price of the cdv), then future episodes will hinge on his thoughts when he opens the package. I wish it were going to be me.

[oldjudge]

Brock-Paul was hired by Troy. He performed his analysis based upon what Troy requested (and paid for). If Troy had paid for additional services then they would have been performed and commented on in Paul's report. I don't know what the terms and conditions that SRAs operate under, but I would hope that a winning bidder, if he or she made arrangements in advance, would have the opportunity to return the CdV if it later proved to be a fake.

[wonkaticket]

Maybe it came from Peter Nash himself.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

"......... I don't understand why he can't comment on it more besides what's in the report. I know if I was going to be bidding 50-100k I should be able to ask him whatever I want about it after he looked at it. I bet after it sells in feb, it won't be the end up us hearing about it.

Forensic experts such as Mr. Messier work only for the person who hired them, which in this case was Troy/the consigner. Unless and until Mr. Messier is given authorization by Troy/the consigner to discuss the card with prospective bidders, he may not do so. You do though raise a valid point -- that if Saco River Auctions is expecting a bidder to be willing to pony up a six-figure sum for the card, then that bidder should have the right to ask Mr. Messier anything he wants and Mr. Messier should be authorized to respond. The flip side to this argument is that I am certain Mr. Messier is a very busy man and that it is not practical for him to respond to a continuous stream of calls from prospective bidders over the next four weeks. Given the unusual circumstance of this situation -- a potential six-figure auction photograph with real authenticity issues, I believe Saco River Auctions should make some special arrangement. For example, there could be a designated phone-in period during which time Mr. Messier will be authorized to respond to questions from prospective bidders.

[e107collector]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Given the unusual circumstance of this situation -- a potential six-figure auction photograph with real authenticity issues, I believe Saco River Auctions should make some special arrangement. For example, there could be a designated phone-in period during which time Mr. Messier will be authorized to respond to questions from prospective bidders.

Corey - well said!

Tony

[Saco River Auction]

I have watched the discussions on the board lately, however I have chosen to stay out of it. I am not a collector of baseball cards and this truly is your forum. I have the utmost respect for all of you and I have learned tons from each of you regarding this hobby. There are a few things that I would like to address, and from time to time during the next 4 weeks I may chime in, but this is your forum.

I hired Mr. Messier to refute the claims and findings made by Leland's. At the time Leland's said that the cdv was a modern reproduction created with an inkjet or laser jet printer. They also viewed a dot pattern in the verso that indicated it was also made with the same technology. Mr. Messier was hired by me to determine whether their findings were accurate or not. His findings clearly show that they were not accurate. As I have stated before I did not see the need for the additional testing, as the cost and potential degradation to the card were not worth it.

Mr. Messier was hired by me and I made the decision that he is not to release any further info. This is not based on you all or any potential bidders. This decision was made due to the fact that Peter Nash was hounding him in the days leading up to Mr. Messier's examination. Nash has been hounding him since. Mr. Messier was hired to do the examination. His time is too valuable to be fielding calls from a "reporter". Likewise he does not know any of you, nor does he know who is on the other end of the phone line.

I have invited all of you to come and view the card yourself. For most of you on the east coast this is not an expensive endeavor and can be done in a day. I have a 40 power microscope that the card can be viewed with and I invite you all to bring your own expert. Other than being able to talk to Mr. CH Williamson(the photographer) and asking him if he produced this albumen, there is no way to make you all convinced of this. We are convinced that this is real, this is beautiful and this should bring a nice price on February 6th.

The last thing I would like to address is the figure that the press printed. I came to this number based on three large sports memorabilia auction houses that I called and spoke with about this card. I simply asked them the following question, "If this item was in your auction, what would be your low estimate for your catalogue" The answers from the three auction halls were averaged out this is how we came up with six figures. With a rare and unique item it is difficult to come up with estimates so I figured I would defer to auction house that deal with sports items of this caliber daily.

Again, I would invite any of you to call my cell phone with any questions 207-650-5677

Troy