Wha' Dat?

[Bocabirdman]

I don't pretend to be all-knowing, but I have never seen this issue before. Is it truly an uncatalogued tobacco era card? Or is it bogus?http://www.ebay.com/itm/circa-1910-J...item337d7bb47f

[Bob Lemke]

I had pictures of the Bliss and Chance cards in my catalog files for many years, but never learned anything concrete about them.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by Bob Lemke

I had pictures of the Bliss and Chance cards in my catalog files for many years, but never learned anything concrete about them.

Bob, so if they are not legitimate to the period then they are at least as old as the pictures in your files. I am amazed that there could still be a semi-steady stream of un-catalogued cards at this late date.

[Bocabirdman]

Well it seems that a couple folks woke up (because of this thread?) It was sitting @ $18 and some change. I put a "why not" bid and got the lead with $19. As I type this, two bidders (neither is the former high bidder) have it up to $41.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Bob Lemke

I had pictures of the Bliss and Chance cards in my catalog files for many years, but never learned anything concrete about them.

$41

It's not every day that you get a Chance for Bliss.

Don't worry. Be happy.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

$41

It's not every day that you get a Chance for Bliss.

Don't worry. Be happy.

I was willing to take a $20 Chance at Bliss but for $40+, I'll take a Chance at life with no Bliss....Dang...It's up to $67

[buymycards]

Mike, was your question so important that you couldn't wait until the auction was over?

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Mike, was your question so important that you couldn't wait until the auction was over?

Rick, my original question was driven by my never having seen the card type before. I am sorry if I "outted" an auction that you were involved in. It would have been hard to get armed with information to help me decide to bid or not....after it closed

[Ladder7]

The black line suggest a cut-out. I applaud the seller for being up front in the description.

[Fred]

+1

[cobblove]

Very cool item. What does the back look like? Is it a blank back?

[bcornell]

In my opinion, these are uncatalogued because they're modern, i.e., not from the deadball era. Bliss (career ended 1912) and Hornsby (who must be the source of the "Rajahs" name; career began 1915) missed each other by several years.

There were several hobby issues of deadball players in the 50's and 60's. I doubt this card is older than that.


Bill

[Jaybird]

I'm with Bill on this one. The font and style just don't seem right to me. It lacks a crispness of true lithography.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by bcornell

In my opinion, these are uncatalogued because they're modern, i.e., not from the deadball era. Bliss (career ended 1912) and Hornsby (who must be the source of the "Rajahs" name; career began 1915) missed each other by several years.

There were several hobby issues of deadball players in the 50's and 60's. I doubt this card is older than that.


Bill

There you go again, Bill, letting the facts get in the way of a good story. What are you, one of those pesky scientists who just have to base their conclusions on facts?

[Jaybird]

Figured I throw the pic up here for those searching down the road after the ebay link dries up.

[z28jd]

I have no idea if they are old or not but I checked google last night for companies using the name Rajah for that era and came up with a cigar company, coffee, chocolate and sparkplugs just through a quick search so I wouldn't assume the name is connected to Hornsby so quickly. Found four options without digging deep so it was a rather common term/slogan during that era.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

Well it seems that a couple folks woke up (because of this thread?) It was sitting @ $18 and some change. I put a "why not" bid and got the lead with $19. As I type this, two bidders (neither is the former high bidder) have it up to $41.

Yikes! It brought in $330.00!

[Leon]

Outing this auction probably helped the price. I was going to have a go at it before it was put on the board. I blew it off once it was. Such is life...

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I have no idea if they are old or not but I checked google last night for companies using the name Rajah for that era and came up with a cigar company, coffee, chocolate and sparkplugs just through a quick search so I wouldn't assume the name is connected to Hornsby so quickly. Found four options without digging deep so it was a rather common term/slogan during that era.

John -

I have to try that Google thing once in a while, myself. The "Rajahs" name may not be from Hornsby, but that seems like a big coincidence.


Bill

[frankbmd]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/N189-Kimball...-/220767022736

The Rajah of Nagound indeed preceded Hornsby and is still available for all you Rajah collectors.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I'm with those who don't believe it's a 1910 era piece. I just don't get that feeling when I look at it. I do think it's vintage, just not that far back. I was very surprised at the final price. I thought I remembered seeing the same card offered on eBay a while back also. And if it sold back then it wasn't for nearly this much.


.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

http://www.ebay.com/itm/N189-Kimball...-/220767022736

The Rajah of Nagound indeed preceded Hornsby and is still available for all you Rajah collectors.

I like this one better Frank. It says sweet caporal on it, which reminds me of T206's, something this thread is obviously lacking

http://www.ebay.com/itm/N224-Kinney-...item460151a74e

Edited to add: Check out the shadow on this card, looks like they started it and then said, eh screw it

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I like this one better Frank. It says sweet caporal on it, which reminds me of T206's, something this thread is obviously lacking

http://www.ebay.com/itm/N224-Kinney-...item460151a74e

Edited to add: Check out the shadow on this card, looks like they started it and then said, eh screw it

I'll take my rajah over your rajah in a cage match and give you 3 to 1 odds.

I have become intrigued by the 50 semi-barbarous Kimball savages (N189) and while reviewing the images I found one savage that appears to be armed with a whisk broom. Nasty fellow indeed.

[Ladder7]

Bliss is ignorance

[RCMcKenzie]

Hi, all. I was the seller. I want to say that I don't know bocacardman, but I think he had a fair question that did not materially effect the final price. Although my item recieved many more views, the people that were serious about the card were already on it and asking questions.

I want to thank Bob Lemke for weighing in with his knowledge on/of this series and would like to see any new information that anyone has on these.

I think Bill makes a valid point about Bliss and Hornsby's careers not overlapping. I can't remember if the Frank Chance card says 'Cubs' or 'Rajahs'. If it says 'Cubs' then I would move the series to around 1918 or so. The card is not from the sixties, perhaps my scan was not detailed enough and you would see what I mean if you were holding the card.

[z28jd]

I had the ingenious idea to look up players with the last name Bliss, to see if any played for a minor league team named the "Rajahs" and while I found no matches, I did find this. Use this info for good only, no evil please.

Dick Bliss played for an 1894 California Players Lg team named the San Francisco Hot Peanuts. The team had an outfielder named John Fogarty, no mention if he played center field.

I swear if someone ever makes replica jerseys from the minor leagues, I am buying a SF Hot Peanuts jersey, along with a Utica Pentups one and half of the 1902 Missouri Valley League teams: Iola Gasbags, Jefferson City Convicts and Nevada Lunatics

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I had the ingenious idea to look up players with the last name Bliss, to see if any played for a minor league team named the "Rajahs" and while I found no matches, I did find this. Use this info for good only, no evil please.

Dick Bliss played for an 1894 California Players Lg team named the San Francisco Hot Peanuts. The team had an outfielder named John Fogarty, no mention if he played center field.

I swear if someone ever makes replica jerseys from the minor leagues, I am buying a SF Hot Peanuts jersey, along with a Utica Pentups one and half of the 1902 Missouri Valley League teams: Iola Gasbags, Jefferson City Convicts and Nevada Lunatics

The Iola Gasbags of 1902 became the Iola Gaslighters of 1903. There must have been an explosive accident as a result of this change for in 1904 they once again became the Iola Gasbags.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

The Iola Gasbags of 1902 became the Iola Gaslighters of 1903. There must have been an explosive accident as a result of this change for in 1904 they once again became the Iola Gasbags.

The Iola Gaspassers was suggested by their sponsoring beanery but rejected

[RCMcKenzie]

There is a first name "Roy" Bliss from the 1913, 1914 and 1917 zeenuts listed as a Salt Lake player. Frank Chance is also in the 1917 Zeenut series.

I like to collect mainstream issues, but also like to buy cards that have a "Patterson film", Jesse Ventura-like aspect to them. These types of cards always make for good discussion.

[packs]

There is (has been?) a Rajah tobacco company that makes cigarettes. I don't know much about their history or how long they've been in business. I do know that there were several British tobacco companies (like Pirate) who did produce baseball cards. If Rajah tobacco has been around for the last hundred years its possible they distributed cards. Being India based would explain their rarity like the Pirate cards.

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

There is a first name "Roy" Bliss from the 1913, 1914 and 1917 zeenuts listed as a Salt Lake player. Frank Chance is also in the 1917 Zeenut series.

Hmm... it didn't occur to me that this might be a minor league issue. I guess this card could be showing a different Bliss and a "Rajahs" team (?) not related to Hornsby. I still opt for Occam's Razor (i.e., if there are multiple plausible answers, go with the simplest), but I may be wrong.

All of the "gas" jokes were juvenile and appreciated. And nice final price, as well.

Bill

[RCMcKenzie]

blissb.jpg

Here is the back. I am a fan of science. If this card was made by Topps in 1962 and 'professionally distressed', or if it came from a box of cigars distributed in India in 1917. I'd just like to know.

In my auction description I said that the card was unknown. People know/knew about this card. My guess is Bob Lemke has scans of this exact card, not one similar to it. The high bidder is a hobby expert, so after I send him the card, I expect we may learn more about what it is or where it originated.

[Vintagecatcher]

This topic came up years ago. Rajahs refers to St Louis Cardinals with Roger Bresnahan. Jack Bliss was a catcher as well.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...lissja01.shtml

Patrick

[brianp-beme]

Great observation Patrick...I just spent a little time searching the internet, and came up with a September 2, 1911 Pittsburg Gazette newspaper article on Roger Bresnahan that refers to him as 'Rajah' about a dozen times. I think that would link this Bliss card to the 1911-12 time frame. And the card looks authentic and from this time period--perhaps from a notebook, as has been conjectured.

Congrats to the winner--they definitely got something completely different.

Brian