Roll-off effect of valuable cards

[ksabet]

Does a highly rare and expensive card of a player affect the value of their other cards?

Do Plank and Wagner cards get a boost because of the T206?

What about Bengough in sets other than '33 Goudey?

Lindstrom aside from US Caramel?

Pafko?

etc.

Side question: Who's cards have the highest value compared to their rarity?

[sycks22]

'52 Topps Campos might be on the list

[Blunder19]

I always thought the t206 Magee went for higher then other commons because of its error twin. The Doyle goes for a premium.. because of its error twin.

So I'd say yes...

[Peter_Spaeth]

I say no. I don't think Plank's cards in other sets, for example, are any higher than you would expect for a 300 game winner. Wagner's cards are relatively expensive because he is on most lists one of the top 5 players of all time.

[ullmandds]

It seems like the rocketing sales prices for ruth rookie cards is driving up the price of other early ruth caramels.

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

It seems like the rocketing sales prices for ruth rookie cards is driving up the price of other early ruth caramels.

I agree with Peter's statment.

[novakjr]

I think what ksabet is trying to ultimately get at, is that some players become overrated overall due to a "KEY" card.. A star, suddenly is thought of as a superstar. And sometimes a guy that would otherwise be common can become a household name, or at the very least a semi-star. In either case it would cause the player's cards in general to be somewhat over-valued..

OR sometimes people chase these "grails" only to ultimately settle for the next best thing, which drives up the demand and prices for that card, and occasionally things can snowball from there, usually no more than a card or two removed from the original grail..

To an extent, I can agree with this theory..

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Blunder19

I always thought the t206 Magee went for higher then other commons because of its error twin. The Doyle goes for a premium.. because of its error twin.

So I'd say yes...

The Doyle is fairly tough to come by - I checked the PSA pop report and it confirmed this.

[fkw]

Yes the Plank and Wagner receive a slight premium, Plank more so.

Wagner was a great player, and his value is slightly lower than Cobb usually, as it should be. Plank isnt found in too many sets, so that helps in the value department too.

No on Bengough, Lindstrom, Pafko, etc.
The R319 Benny Bengough is just as common as every other low # card.
its only got a premium in High Grade because the #1 card often received more wear when stored in number order, as many kids did back then.
as a player Benny sucked! ... way below average player, averaging 41 games a year, with 0 HRs in his career, and only total 108 RBIs

[ktimm]

A side question for curiousity sake.Does anyone have Wagnerin their top 5 all-time?

[fkw]

Wagner is close to top 5...

hitters
#1 Ruth
#2 Bonds
#3 Williams
#4 Cobb
#5 Gehrig
then Wagner, DiMaggio, Pujols, Hornsby, Foxx, etc., etc.

#21 Mantle

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill James rates him no. 2.

[FrankWakefield]

If a fellow were to read The Glory of Their Times, then he'd think a bit better of Honus Wagner... A bunch of the players that played with Ruth and Cobb perceived Wagner as the best of the bunch.

I used to think Cobb was the best, partly because I'm a contrarian, and partly to be anti-Yankees. But some of that was based on the numbers, and what I read about when Cobb was in St. Louis for a series against the Browns, and he'd announced to the writers beforehand that he wasn't going to do the single, bunt, steal stuff but would instead swing for the fences like the Babe. I forget how well he did, but I think he hit 4something and had 6 home runs. I mention this because all of us can form opinions based on our interpretation of the stats, and from our league or team biases. If we step back from that, and consider what their contemporaries thought, their fellow competitors, then a compelling case can be made for the superiority of Mr. Wagner's skills. He was a ballplayer.

[ktimm]

Nice!My own opinion,take Bonds off the list.Maybe a pitcher?Mays or Musial?I like the idea that Wagner had the talent and ability to play a couple different positions.

[tbob]

My list:

1. Ruth
2. Wagner
3. Cobb
4. Gehrig
5. Mays

Mantle is #10

[Runscott]

1. Wagner
2. Cobb
3. Ruth
4. Williams
5. Gehrig

[npa589]

For the most part, it seems like it... Wagner, though an all-time great, has even more of a lore to him because of T206 fame. Imagine if Ty Cobb were the subject of incredible rarity within the T206 set, with the same backstory (I know this is entailing many changes in actual history) as Wagner... Imagine what kind of cost that card would garner.

1. Ruth
2. Cobb
3. Teddy Ballgame
4. Mays
5. Josh Gibson

[4reals]

very thoughtful response, I agree with you.

Originally Posted by novakjr

I think what ksabet is trying to ultimately get at, is that some players become overrated overall due to a "KEY" card.. A star, suddenly is thought of as a superstar. And sometimes a guy that would otherwise be common can become a household name, or at the very least a semi-star. In either case it would cause the player's cards in general to be somewhat over-valued..

OR sometimes people chase these "grails" only to ultimately settle for the next best thing, which drives up the demand and prices for that card, and occasionally things can snowball from there, usually no more than a card or two removed from the original grail..

To an extent, I can agree with this theory..

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by npa589

For the most part, it seems like it... Wagner, though an all-time great, has even more of a lore to him because of T206 fame. Imagine if Ty Cobb were the subject of incredible rarity within the T206 set, with the same backstory (I know this is entailing many changes in actual history) as Wagner... Imagine what kind of cost that card would garner.

1. Ruth
2. Cobb
3. Teddy Ballgame
4. Mays
5. Josh Gibson

Wagner was great because he was great - not because his card was rare. He's no longer the household name that Cobb or Ruth was, because he wasn't a loudmouth characterized by outrageous behavior. As others have mentioned, folks interviewed in the early '60s who played with Wagner, remembered him as being the greatest they ever played with or against, but you are right - the rarity of his T206 has drawn deserved attention to his playing career.

The greatness of Williams and Mays is still remembered because many are still living who saw them play, and also because they were home run hitters who played after the dead-ball era...plus, they really were great, just like Wagner.

[Big Six]

I find it interesting there's no mention of Hank Aaron on these lists...I would think he's top 5 material...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Top ten non pitchers non roiders.

1. Ruth
2. Mays
3. Cobb
4. Williams
5. Wagner
6. Musial
7. Gehrig
8. Aaron
9. DiMaggio
10. Speaker

[ktimm]

Nicely worded Scott.No wrong answers, they're all great players.I did read Glory of their Times and i think Wagner doesn't get the same hype as some of the other players.Maybe we're forgetting a few,anyone have any 19th century players on the list?Can you compare the 19th and 20th century players?

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by ktimm

Nicely worded Scott.No wrong answers, they're all great players.I did read Glory of their Times and i think Wagner doesn't get the same hype as some of the other players.Maybe we're forgetting a few,anyone have any 19th century players on the list?Can you compare the 19th and 20th century players?

Is there any chance that this "roll off effect" has actually had a reverse effect on Honus? Like I mentioned earlier, sometimes these "grails" can make superstars out of stars, or semi-stars out of common players. Perhaps some people have this in the back of their minds, and assume Wagner is just over-hyped due to this t206 card? He wasn't, but to an extent, I can understand the mental aspect to this type of assumption..

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Big Six

I find it interesting there's no mention of Hank Aaron on these lists...I would think he's top 5 material...

When I was growing up, I considered the greatest non-pitchers to be Mantle, Mays, Aaron and Jim Wynn (just because he was an Astro). Roger Maris' '61 season was only a couple of years back, so he was a hero as well. We all knew who Babe Ruth was, but not Cobb so much. And certainly not Wagner.

Based on personal experience alone, I would have to say Tony Perez and Nolan Ryan were the greatest players ever! I don't think anyone could get a ball out of the park quicker than Perez.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Is there any chance that this "roll off effect" has actually had a reverse effect on Honus? Like I mentioned earlier, sometimes these "grails" can make superstars out of stars, or semi-stars out of common players. Perhaps some people have this in the back of their minds, and assume Wagner is just over-hyped due to this t206 card? He wasn't, but to an extent, I can understand the mental aspect to this type of assumption..

Never thought about this but it is interesting indeed. I don't think so, but it makes you wonder what Wagner Candy, Bread, tobacco etc. would price at if his T206 card was as accessible as that of Cobb, Johnson and Mathewson?

--Kiya

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by fkw

Yes the Plank and Wagner receive a slight premium, Plank more so.

Wagner was a great player, and his value is slightly lower than Cobb usually, as it should be. Plank isnt found in too many sets, so that helps in the value department too.

No on Bengough, Lindstrom, Pafko, etc.
The R319 Benny Bengough is just as common as every other low # card.
its only got a premium in High Grade because the #1 card often received more wear when stored in number order, as many kids did back then.
as a player Benny sucked! ... way below average player, averaging 41 games a year, with 0 HRs in his career, and only total 108 RBIs

I may agree on Pafko and Bengough but Lindstrom is a HOFer that I would have never known if not for the U.S. Caramel card.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Is there any chance that this "roll off effect" has actually had a reverse effect on Honus? Like I mentioned earlier, sometimes these "grails" can make superstars out of stars, or semi-stars out of common players. Perhaps some people have this in the back of their minds, and assume Wagner is just over-hyped due to this t206 card? He wasn't, but to an extent, I can understand the mental aspect to this type of assumption..

David, I agree 100% with you on the Wagner reversal. For the people that know baseball inside and out, I'm sure they are aware of how great Wagner really was, but for the majority of people (me included), Wagner was a good ball player, but his T206 card is what makes him so popular. So for me, your assessment is dead on.

Of course I now realize how great he really is/was, but I'd say for the every day run of the mill, his baseball card is more popular than he actually was as a ball player.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

David, I agree 100% with you on the Wagner reversal. For the people that know baseball inside and out, I'm sure they are aware of how great Wagner really was, but for the majority of people (me included), Wagner was a good ball player, but his T206 card is what makes him so popular. So for me, your assessment is dead on.

Of course I now realize how great he really is/was, but I'd say for the every day run of the mill, his baseball card is more popular than he actually was as a ball player.

But he was a very popular ballplayers. And he's still probably the best player that the National League ever produced. I can't rank the top five non-pitchers, but they include Wagner, Ruth, Cobb, Mays, and Williams.

[freakhappy]

Mark,

I'm with you all the way on how great Wagner actually is, but you forgot to highlight the rest of the sentence which made my whole point: For the every day run of the mill people that aren't as knowledged in the history of the game, Wagner probably would be left off the list...and is recognized for his card, not as much for his abilities.