Babe Ruths auto or Joe Jackson???

[yanks12025]

Hello,
So I justed picked up this vintage baseball and it has a date of Sept. ?? 1917. Now on one panel it has Red Sox, so I was looking over the ball cause it's covered in either autos or details of a game. Well I came across some writing, which sort of looks like Ruth's autograph. But not sure if my eyes are just seeing things. Now the beginning is faded, but you can sort of see the outline in the dirt,whatever then what looks like Ruth. What do you guys think?? Thanks

First photo is where im seeing Ruth?? Now call me super crazy but doesnt the auto in photo 5 kind of look like Joe Jackson's(bottom one). And I'm not on drugs.

[yanks12025]

1 more pic.

[jcmtiger]

You have better eyes than me, I can't make out any signature.

Joe

[yanks12025]

Here I circled what im talking about. I'm guessing their not, but always have to double check.

[RichardSimon]

It looks like someone wrote "Ruth" on the ball but it's not the Babe.

[yanks12025]

So Richard, guessing im crazy on the possible Jackson then?

[packs]

It was my understanding that Joe Jackson was illiterate.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by packs

It was my understanding that Joe Jackson was illiterate.

Yes, but he could "draw his name" his name has been found on some items, incl the Addie Joss game ball, and a number of legal documents. He had a lot of difficulty trying to draw his name, so Katie usually signed for him.

[RichardSimon]

The Joe looks more like Jay to me,,, the letter at the end of that looks like a y to me.

[yanks12025]

Thanks for the Help Richard, Is there anything I can use to help try reading the writing better. I tried a black light, but nothing really

[murphusa]

it's yours, keep it in your collection and impress your friends with a great story you made up on how you got the ball

Be a Halper

[yanks12025]

Jim,

At least I was right that someone at least wrote Ruth. You know gotta be sure about stuff, when it has a date in Sept 1917, around the same day of Tim Murnane Benefit Day which Ruth and Jackson were at.

[aaroncc]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

The Joe looks more like Jay to me,,, the letter at the end of that looks like a y to me.

I see a y also looks like it says July.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by aaroncc

I see a y also looks like it says July.

I'm pretty sure there was no player named July.. And it's not a date because you can make out the last name also starts with a J.

[scooter729]

Although it would be a stretch to say it's Joe Jackson, I will say I do see what Brock is talking about there.

Here's a copy of the Joe Jackson check sold earlier this year, compared to this ball. I can see how the "e" in "Joe" looks similar, although it also could say July for all I know (which ain't much). There are some similarities there, but I don't quite think that's Shoeless Joe on there...

[perezfan]

I kinda see it on the Jackson part, anyway. The bottom bar of the "E" in "Joe" drops down pretty low in the check exemplar. I can see where a portion of the "e" is making it look like a "y".

It's still not likely Shoeless Joe, but nice to dream... when I squint just right, I can acually see it

[canjond]

Ok - not that I have any thoughts on authenticity, but I can see the Joe Jackson. Well, I can totally see the "Joe", and I certainly see the J in the last name.

[gnaz01]

I have no dog in this fight either, but if you look at the sweet spot, you can see an "M" which looks VERY similar to a Christy Mathewson signed ball. I know a stretch, but to dream.......

Check it out!!

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9562224

[yanks12025]

I think that was a bad Jackson auto to compared to. Because one is on a ball and the other is paper. Here's one from hunts that was also signed in 1917.

[Shoeless Moe]

I see Al Jolson in the top one.

[yanks12025]

Al Jolson the singer? Couldn't find a baseball player

Kevin Keating couldnt offer any opinion cause not enough to go on.

[HexsHeroes]

.

. . . I'm having fun with this, but a couple more scans might be useful. If you are game, please post the additional scans as requested below. I in no way consider myself skilled at signature verification, but who doesn't like to play "detective" from time to time.

Regarding this ball:

On your second scanned image, I too see lettering for Sept ?? 1917
But I would love to see another image where the area above 1917 is centered, so that I could try and make out that word. I can't tell what letter(s) preceeding and following "a" are. It does appear to be a capital "M" present too; perhaps for "M"urnane ?

On your third image, I make out a possible "th" at the right end of the second row of text. Could those last four printed letters spell Ruth ?
The also appears to be the numbers "02" at the end of the third row of print. I would love to have a better scan of the first row of letters, inorder to try and make those words out.

On your fourth image, that appears to be a signature along the left side (next to the seam). My imagination sees the letters Geo M???

On the fifth image, I initially thought the signature at the top might be ?al?? (Walter) Johnson, but I do not see enough spacing between the letters "al" and "J" to make this possible. But I do think it possible the last name could be Johnson.

Regarding your first image, I don't think that is Ruth's signature. I am only basing my opinion on the representation of the R in Ruth from this prior auction lot of a signed ball from Murnane's Benefit Game: http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=44837

Just my two cents. Hope makes us see things that may not be there. But every once in a great while, hope and actuality do meet.

[yanks12025]

Vince,
I would get you better photos, but I dropped the ball off to JSA today and let them take a look.

[Mr. Zipper]

Perhaps they'll have some sort of UV light that will help them see the faded inks.

[yanks12025]

Came across this auction and it shows what JSA can do when baseball's are very jaded. So I'm sure once i get my ball back, alot of it will be solved.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1928-Yankee-Team...#ht_500wt_1413

[Shoeless Moe]

if they can see sigs on that one.......amazing.

however, it will be interesting to see what that goes for, unless u have that technology in your home, not sure it displays very well, cool that they once touched it and signed it, but with nothing visable not a ball I'd want.

Good for someone starting out. Interesting to see what it goes for. I guess $600.

[glchen]

I think if Joe Jax can somehow be authenticated, the ball will go into the thousands. He is a tough sig to get.

[GrayGhost]

Why would someone want a signed ball where you need a black light or w/e to see the sigs? For me, Id want to look at the ball at times. Good luck w you ball tho.

[yanks12025]

Gray,

But if it is Joe Jackson, you can till see part of it so it's not like the completely faded Yankee ball.

[GrayGhost]

Good point Brock. its way better than the Yankees ball in that regard.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

Why would someone want a signed ball where you need a black light or w/e to see the sigs? For me, Id want to look at the ball at times. Good luck w you ball tho.

Just create a special UV lighted display case.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by murphusa

it's yours, keep it in your collection and impress your friends with a great story you made up on how you got the ball

be a halper

funny!! :d

[yanks12025]

UPS will be dropping the ball off tonight!!! So the wait will come to an end and we will find out what is on this ball.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

UPS will be dropping the ball off tonight!!! So the wait will come to an end and we will find out what is on this ball.

I am looking forward to finding out as well sir.

[yanks12025]

They couldn't offer their opinion, and guess their computers couldn't see anything.

[BrandonG]

You got my hopes up, I was really rooting for you. But then I would have been really pissed because I passed on buying the ball when it was on eBay. lol.

[yanks12025]

Well I'm upset that they couldn't do anything, yet with that Yankee ball they could when mine is in better shape.

[jerseygary]

That's too bad, I was pulling for you.

[Shoeless Moe]

Did they charge you, and if so what?

[yanks12025]

They gave me a voucher back. But guess I'll try to sell it. I may send the ball to PSA, I'm focused on proving it.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Well I'm upset that they couldn't do anything, yet with that Yankee ball they could when mine is in better shape.

I think it has more to do with the condition of the leather in relation to the ink of the signatures than the overall "condition" of the ball. Yours looks to have more areas where the leather is abraded, meaning in those areas the part of the leather that bore the ink is actually gone. In my limited experience with using black lights to increase visibility of signatures, it also helps if the ball is more white and does not work as well with balls that are deeply toned. I'm not sure if that holds true for other wavelengths. I'm sure that JSA did what they could, but even with their sophisticated array of lights they're not magicians. It was worth a try (well, I guess depending on how much it cost), but you have to admit it was a long shot at best.

[mschwade]

I was pulling for you too! Call me crazy, but the more and more I look at the Joe Jackson check and the ball, the more I start believing it really is it. Let's just put it this way, JSA didn't say it wasn't Shoeless Joe!

[yanks12025]

Personally I'm probably biased because it's my ball, but I think it is. The Joe part matches up perfectly. Some members expressed their opinion thinking it says "July", there's no point in July being written there.

Also JSA only included one UV or what ever picture of the area, I hope they did the rest of the ball and not just were I think Joe Jackson is.

One person mentioned how maybe the lights/camera's couldn't pick it up because of the leather actually being gone. On several parts I can see the autos still.

[FUBAR]

if you look at the Leaf cut signature of Joe Jackson from this year, yours does look similar. The Ruth, unless the Babe was drunk, the R looks off no where near correct.

If all else fails, Chris Morales will authenticate it ;o)

[yanks12025]

Funny Jim..... Don't worry I wont go that route.

Then I'm also starting to think, that they may have not even noticed where I pointed Joe Jackson out. Cause the photo they included, isnt of the auto(just the same panel).

[JeremyW]

I would clarify that with Spence & then get PSA/DNA's opinion.

[yanks12025]

Here's a acouple photos of there letter and the image they provided. Also anyone know what their vouchers look like, cause I dont see any at all. Will call tomorrow and try calling to one of the guys.

[yanks12025]

Here's acouple closeups of the ball. I took a picture while I made my magnifying glass on it.

[canjond]

I'm pretty sure the voucher is the second "authentication" LOA you posted. I also have a JSA credit and my voucher is the letter that says what they examined, etc (not the letter addressed to you).

[yanks12025]

I just wanted to make mention to you guys that I have listed the ball on ebay, and mentioned a possible Joe Jackson auto. I mentioned how JSA could not offer an opinion, I mentioned how some of us agree with what I say while others feel I'm crazy. If anyone things I misrepresent the ball, please let me know. Thanks

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_500wt_1413