2011 HOF Ballot

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think someone should get in for longevity stats alone unless maybe for cracking a magic barrier like 3000 hits or 300 wins. To me a HOFer not only should have great career stats but should, for a reasonable number of years (say 5-7 minimum), have been one of the best players at his position or pitchers in the game. Two all star teams does not say that to me about Blyleven. His status suggest longevity only.

I understand your point, but I think All Star game appearances are an overrated factor. Often great players on bad teams won't have many all star appearances.

And do you think Nolan Ryan should be in the HOF? If he only played 23 seasons instead of 27 he wouldn't have 300 wins, and besides strikeouts he never had a dominating stretch of years for any other stat. He never led the league in wins, only led in ERA twice

[celoknob]

If Blyleven had played for the Yankees he would have been in long, long ago. Larkin would make it this year or next if he had been a Yankee or could do backflips like Ozzie Smith. Injuries certainly did have a negative effect on Larkin's career and total numbers; I still have no reservations saying he belongs.

[Section103]

Excellent poll. By the 75% rule, there's still not one who's getting in on our ballots.

Im pleasantly surprised by the amount of votes Bagwell is getting. I dont even know if I consider him a HOFer, but I appreciate the consideration he's getting. It's also interesting to watch the subtext he carries as there are "some" suspicions of steroid use, nothing remotely glaring (hello Palmeiro) and a nice bellweather case for what the voters will do with this entire era of players and "unknown" situations.

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

For those who don't consider Barry Larkin worthy of the Hall of Fame, can you come up with 10 shortstops who were better? Also, is the Hall of Fame big enough for one of the best 10 shortstops in history? Bill James ranks him sixth and he's the best baseball numbers guy of all. So to all of Larkin's detractors, I challenge you to prove to me ... with a comparative statistical analysis and not simply opinions ... why Larkin isn't worthy of the Hall of Fame.

Induction into the Hall of Fame should be based not on perceptions, allegiances and myths, but on hard numbers that take into account all the factors (dead ball vs. live ball, size of ballparks, etc.) that skew statistics. Sadly, while James and others have done the work, only a small percentage of baseball fans have even noticed. As a result, the debate goes on, but at the same time, it goes nowhere ...

Who are the top 10 Shortstops according to James? It would be interesting to see this list.

Also, before Larkin & Ripken, SS was primarily a defensive position where teams carried players on their roster for their glove, not their bat. That is probably the main reason that James has him as high as he does.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think he is overrated by those who count him among the few greatest pitchers ever, but he has to be in the Hall given the sheer outrageousness of the strikeout totals, plus the 7 no hitters, not to mention the 324 wins. His ERA was 10 or so points better than Blyleven, and he had many more all star appearances.

[Chris-Counts]

Phil, here's James' list. He didn't include active players. If he did, A-Rod and Jeter would obviously be high on the list ...

1. Honus Wagner
2. Arky Vaughan
3. Cal Ripken
4. Robin Yount
5. Ernie Banks
6. Barry Larkin
7. Ozzie Smith
8. Joe Cronin
9. Alan Trammell
10. Pee Wee Reese

Also, Larkin's various injuries, and the time he lost as a result, often come up in Hall of Fame discussions. I did a quick survey, and for what it's worth, he played more games at shortstop in his career than roughly half the shortstops in the Hall of Fame ...

How many Gold Glove shortstops can you name with a ton of steals, an MVP award, a World Series ring and a .370 career on-base average? If they gave out Gold Gloves in 1910, certainly Honus Wagner would quailify, but who else?

[Robextend]

I wonder if Concepcion would be #11,

2300+ Hits, 9 AS Games, 5 Gold Gloves, 300+ SB

[Chris-Counts]

Rob, I'm a huge fan of both the Reds and Concepcion, but his on-base average is 50 points lower than Larkin's. That a deal breaker for me ...

[carrigansghost]

Rob did this as a way to further a Larkin's case. He already had my vote.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I generally like Bill James' take on things, but rating Arky Vaughan as the number 2 shortstop in history is ridiculous.

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

Phil, here's James' list. He didn't include active players. If he did, A-Rod and Jeter would obviously be high on the list ...

1. Honus Wagner
2. Arky Vaughan
3. Cal Ripken
4. Robin Yount
5. Ernie Banks
6. Barry Larkin
7. Ozzie Smith
8. Joe Cronin
9. Alan Trammell
10. Pee Wee Reese

Also, Larkin's various injuries, and the time he lost as a result, often come up in Hall of Fame discussions. I did a quick survey, and for what it's worth, he played more games at shortstop in his career than roughly half the shortstops in the Hall of Fame ...

How many Gold Glove shortstops can you name with a ton of steals, an MVP award, a World Series ring and a .370 career on-base average? If they gave out Gold Gloves in 1910, certainly Honus Wagner would quailify, but who else?

That list goes to strengthen my argument that before Larkin's time, SS was just a defensive position, since 7 of Bill James' top 10 SS are "modern" SS.

There's some great names there, but that has to be "the weakest" Top 10 list for any position in the Hall of Fame. Just an indication of what the position used to be.

[HOF Yankees]

It will be interesting to see what happens come January when the writers have to turn in their ballots for HOF inductees

[ethicsprof]

i voted but couldn't get my mind off gavvy or cactus cravath as my perennial real choice.

best,
barry

[ChiefBenderForever]

Bert Blyleven , it's almost a crime he isn't in, his stats alone are so much better than many pitchers in the HOF ! Plus he wasn't on the best team and still put up monster numbers. The HOF should be ashamed for not having him in yet, disgraceful........................

[tbob]

Blyleven deserves it. If Alomar and Larkin aren't in and Mazeroski and Ozzie are, then somethings wrong.

[chaddurbin]

my imaginary votes went to blyleven, alomar, larkin, and raines.

these arguments never go anywhere. people are reading from different books and watching different games. when you're still quoting archaic stats like batting avg/rbis or wins and eras (or that jim rice is a hof'er), there's just no point of reconciliation.