1966 Topps 6th Series/Semi-Hi's

[Cliff Bowman]

Updated, I think that has to be an Angel/Brave above Wynn rather than an Indian/Phillie.

***Fox**** - Richardson - Johnson - *Hargan* - Podres - ????????? - Yankees Rookies - ??????? - Roznovsky - ????
***l**********l*********l********l********l******* ****l***********l***********l********l******l***
**Skinner** - Rodgers* - Jimenez - Phillies Tm - ?????? - Cannizzaro - **Bressoud*** - ??????? - *Kline** - ??????
***l*********l********l********l********l********* ***l***********l***********l********l*******l***
**Aaron** - **Lolich* - O'Donoghue- Buchek - ?????? - *Belinsky* - ??????????????? - ??????? - ???????? - *Azcue*
***l*********l********l********l********l********* ***l***********l***********l********l*******l**
**Moeller** - *Bunker* - Covington - *Howard* - Hatton - **Wyatt** - ????????????? - ???????? - ???????? - Buford
***l*********l********l********l*********l******** ***l***********l ***********l********l******l***
Cubs Rookies - *Bob Lee* - ???????? - **Oliva** - A's Team - *Blefary* - ????????????? - Banks* - McDaniel - Latman
***l*********l*********l********l*********l******* ***l***********l************l********l*******l****
*Gonzalez* - *Wynn* - ????????? - **Simmons - Radatz - Klippstein - **McAuliffe** - *Green* - **Linz** - *Stuart*
***l*********l********l********l********l********* **l************l*******************l********l****
**Nuxhall** - Ferrara - **Bennett - *Ellsworth - *Rollins - Tommy John - **McCool** - ???????? - *Barber** - ??????

[Cliff Bowman]

Lenny Green and Phil Linz are side by side on a 4x row, Green has an Indian/Phillie above him and Linz has a Senator/Giant above him, I am confident that George Banks is above Green and Lindy McDaniel is above Linz because Banks and McDaniel are side by side.

[Cliff Bowman]

Yankees Rookie Stars has a Twin/Red above it, so that means it has to be under either Rollins or McCool, I compared the Yankees Rookies to both and it matches McCool because the left tip of the blue has the tail that matches the Yankees Rookies miscut.

[Cliff Bowman]

The only Pirates/Red Sox remaining for the the card to the right of Stigman are Lenny Green and Roy Face, I concluded that it is Face because minor print anomalies on the pink match up and there isn't room for three consecutive new columns, I believe one missing column is to the left of the cluster and two are to the right of the cluster, I am not including the left edge column or the right edge column.

[Cliff Bowman]

Thanks to dewey linking Coleman to Red Sox Rookies there is this six card combo.

***Gibbon*** - *Hannan*
******l**********l****
Braves Rookies - Schofield
******l***********l***
**Coleman*** - Red Sox Rookies

[Cliff Bowman]

There is a three card vertical run of

**Barber*
***l***
Roznovsky
***l***
*Kline*

Barber has an Indian/Phillie above him which can only be Sam McDowell or Phil Linz after the others have been eliminated. I compared the blown up miscut to McDowell and Linz and it is Linz, McDowell has print anomalies that aren't present on the Barber miscut. That creates a run of

**Banks** - McDaniel
***l**********l***
**Green* - **Linz**
***l*********l***
????????? - *Barber*
***l*********l****
????????? - Roznovsky
***l*********l****
????????? - **Kline**

[Cliff Bowman]

3x Wes Covington has an Indian/Phillie above him, there are two possible ones left, Sam McDowell and John O'Donoghue. The miscut matched up with O'Donoghue and is definitely not McDowell so that puts Covington under O'Donoghue.

[deweyinthehall]

I did a quick eBay check today and came up with this - do these counts dovetail with your experience? Where do we feel comfortable drawing a line between the 44 3x and the 33 4x? Theoretically the break point on this list is between Stuart at #44 (141 count) and Wyatt at #45 (145 count). Oddly, the right edge cards show 2 over 200 (including the 6th series checklist, also printed with series 5) and 5 with below 100 (including the 7th series checklist, the numbers of which should be augmented by its appearance in series 7 - artificially low due to heavy usage and disposal back in 1966?)

EDWARDS 45
BLEFARY 47
SKINNER 49
MCDOWELL 53
BUNKER 60
COLEMAN 61
BRESSOUD 61
CARDENAL 64
HOWARD 66
WOOD 67
BEARNARTH 68
ROZNOVSKY 70
ATHLETICS TEAM 71
MOELLER 72
RICHARDSON 72
GIANTS ROOKIES 72
FOX 73
JIMENEZ 75
PHILLIES TEAM 76
CARREON 77
COVINGTON 84
SCHOFIELD 85
OLIVA 86
7TH CHECKLIST 86 *
FRIEND 86
CUBS ROOKIES 87
PODRES 90
WOODESHICK 91
BUFORD 92
YANKEES ROOKIES 98
BAILEY 102
BRAVES ROOKIES 105
HARGAN 108
RED SOX ROOKIES 109
MCDANIEL 112
ELLSWORTH 115
RODGERS 119
HATTON 121
BANKS 127
NUXHALL 132
JOHNSON 136
KLINE 138
CANNIZZARO 139
STUART 141
WYATT 145
LOLICH 152
LEE 153
LATMAN 154
JOHN 157
PIRATES ROOKIES 159
GONZALEZ 165
WYNN 186
RADATZ 195
AARON 196
SIMMONS 202
MCAULIFFE 212
FACE 213
FERRARA 217
ROLLINS 221
BUCHEK 228
BARBER 232
GREEN 233
STANKY 239
HAMILTON 240
BRAGAN 246
LINZ 250
KLIPPSTEIN 257
AZCUE 260
MCCOOL 260
6TH CHECKLIST 263 *
BELINSKY 264
WILHELM 267
BENNETT 277
GIBBON 290
O'DONOGHUE 300
STIGMAN 315
HANNAN 373

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

I did a quick eBay check today and came up with this - do these counts dovetail with your experience? Where do we feel comfortable drawing a line between the 44 3x and the 33 4x? Hold your thoughts on that until my next post....

EDWARDS 45
BLEFARY 47
SKINNER 49
MCDOWELL 53
BUNKER 60
COLEMAN 61
BRESSOUD 61
CARDENAL 64
HOWARD 66
WOOD 67
BEARNARTH 68
ROZNOVSKY 70
ATHLETICS TEAM 71
MOELLER 72
RICHARDSON 72
GIANTS ROOKIES 72
FOX 73
JIMENEZ 75
PHILLIES TEAM 76
CARREON 77
COVINGTON 84
SCHOFIELD 85
OLIVA 86
7TH CHECKLIST 86 *
FRIEND 86
CUBS ROOKIES 87
PODRES 90
WOODESHICK 91
BUFORD 92
YANKEES ROOKIES 98
BAILEY 102
BRAVES ROOKIES 105
HARGAN 108
RED SOX ROOKIES 109
MCDANIEL 112
ELLSWORTH 115
RODGERS 119
HATTON 121
BANKS 127
NUXHALL 132
JOHNSON 136
KLINE 138
CANNIZZARO 139
STUART 141
WYATT 145
LOLICH 152
LEE 153
LATMAN 154
JOHN 157
PIRATES ROOKIES 159
GONZALEZ 165
WYNN 186
RADATZ 195
AARON 196
SIMMONS 202
MCAULIFFE 212
FACE 213
FERRARA 217
ROLLINS 221
BUCHEK 228
BARBER 232
GREEN 233
STANKY 239
HAMILTON 240
BRAGAN 246
LINZ 250
KLIPPSTEIN 257
AZCUE 260
MCCOOL 260
6TH CHECKLIST 263 *
BELINSKY 264
WILHELM 267
BENNETT 277
GIBBON 290
O'DONOGHUE 300
STIGMAN 315
HANNAN 373

Pirates Rookies IS NOT right, I think it is probably the smallest quantity of any card in the series.

[Cliff Bowman]

The one hang up I am having is figuring out the three 4x cards on the last (right edge) column, Hamilton is the only one that is unquestionably a 4x.

[deweyinthehall]

I think it's Hamilton, 6th Checklist - even with inflated numbers from its 5th series print - and the 7th for the reasons I said (large amounts discarded - which would help the 6th series checklist's case as a 4x).

I am going to spend some time catching up to you tonight

[Cliff Bowman]

Here is a better scan of the Latman miscut, it is Dick Stuart under him.

[Cliff Bowman]

Here is a better scan of the miscut Hal Woodeshick, when I blow it up it looks like a tinge of yellow, there is an open 3x slot above Dick McAuliffe.

[deweyinthehall]

Are you counting Ellsworth as a 4x? I think he could be a 3x...and if he were, Oliva would be a good match because of the light patch of green in that area of both Oliva's photo and the sliver showing on the Ellsworth mc.

[deweyinthehall]

On the Pirates Rookies, it's weird - doing a search on "1966 Topps Pirates Rookies 498" gets that high number, but looking through each only 22 were actually card 498 - lots of team cards and lower number rookies. Don't see the same thing with the other rookie cards. Weird. Definitely in the 3x.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Are you counting Ellsworth as a 4x? I think he could be a 3x...and if he were, Oliva would be a good match because of the light patch of green in that area of both Oliva's photo and the sliver showing on the Ellsworth mc.

I think Ellsworth is correct as a 4x on the Nuxhall row, it is a notorious card because it shows the two year deceased Ken Hubbs on it and there is a demand for it. I do have at least one flaw on my current layout, I have a six card block of

4x ***Gibbon*** - Hannan
3x Braves Rookies -Schofield
3x **Coleman** - Red Sox Rookies

and I have nowhere to put it.

[deweyinthehall]

I'm an idiot - Ellsworth and Olive are in the same column...my brain is turning to mush.

[deweyinthehall]

Get your Phil Linz cards out - I believe the gray bordered card above Steve Barber is Linz - look carefully at the uniform thickness of the black border and the edge of the salmon field compared to Barber's. Other options are McDowell, Azcue or Banks.

[Kevvyg1026]

The counts for check 6 (and even perhaps check 5, or 7) are high because you have both varieties included in a simple search.

[Cliff Bowman]

***Fox**** - Richardson - Johnson - *Hargan* - Podres - ????????? - Yankees Rookies - ??????? - Roznovsky - ????
***l**********l*********l********l********l******* ****l***********l***********l********l******l***
**Skinner** - Rodgers* - Jimenez - Phillies Tm - ?????? - Cannizzaro - **Bressoud*** - ??????? - *Kline** - ??????
***l*********l********l********l********l********* ***l***********l***********l********l*******l***
**Aaron** - **Lolich* - O'Donoghue- Buchek - ?????? - *Belinsky* - ??????????????? - ??????? - ???????? - *Azcue*
***l*********l********l********l********l********* ***l***********l***********l********l*******l**
**Moeller** - *Bunker* - Covington - *Howard* - Hatton - **Wyatt** - ????????????? - ???????? - ???????? - Buford
***l*********l********l********l*********l******** ***l***********l ***********l********l******l***
Cubs Rookies - *Bob Lee* - Friend - **Oliva** - A's Team - *Blefary* - ????????????? - Banks* - McDaniel - Latman
***l*********l*********l********l*********l******* ***l***********l************l********l*******l****
*Gonzalez* - *Wynn* - ????????? - **Simmons - Radatz - Klippstein - **McAuliffe** - *Green* - **Linz** - *Stuart*
***l*********l********l********l********l********* **l************l*******************l********l****
**Nuxhall** - Ferrara - **Bennett - *Ellsworth - *Rollins - Tommy John - **McCool** - ???????? - *Barber** - ??????

I believe there are seven more 4x cards, Bragan, Face, Gibbon, Hannan, Stanky, Stigman, Wilhelm, and there are seven open slots in the three 4x rows, Aaron, Gonzalez, Nuxhall, the problem is there is no way to fit in the remaining combos and meet the other requirements in the current layout. If dewey is right about Coleman being to the left of Red Sox Rookies then there is a six card block of

Gibbon - Hannan
Braves Rookies - Schofield
Coleman - Red Sox Rookies

plus Red Sox Rookies has a Rookie Stars card to its right. Then there is a two card combo of Stigman-Face on a 4x row. I probably have at least one column in the wrong spot.

[deweyinthehall]

I believe Gordy Coleman has to be over either O'Donoghue or Phil Linz. These are the only 2 gray border cards aren't in column of more than 4 cards, which don't have objects along the top border and on which the sky isn't simply too dark a blue to fit. Either option would create a complete column of 7 with 3 4x and 4 3x each.

An O'donoghue match would produce a column of Coleman/Braves Rookies/Jimenez/Johnson (3x) and Gibbon, O'Donoghue/Bennett (4x).

If it's Linz we have Coleman/Braves Rookies/Roznovsky/Kline (3x) and Linz/Gibbon/Barber (4x). We know Linz has a Green bar above him, and in his scenario it would be Gibbon.

Again, this is based on the fact I don't think it could be other than these two under Coleman - I think it's probably Linz. The sky on his card is a bit lighter than O'Donoghues.

There's been a lot of activity today so tell me what I missed.

Thoughts?

[deweyinthehall]

Earlier today or possibly yesterday we had settled I thought on a 6-card partial column of:

Phillies
Buchek
Hargan
Wynn
Ferrara
Covington

That seems to have changed?

[Kevvyg1026]

Can someone re-post the Coleman miscut with a RC to its right? I can't seem to find it.

Also, this is the pattern I came up with for both LE and RE cards. That means check7 is a 4x.

LE RE
A Aaron Hamilton
B Moeller Check 6
C Cubs RS J. Wood
D Gonzalez Giants RS
E Nuxhall Check 7
F Fox Edwards
G Skinner Carreon

And here is a long forgotten mc of check 7, below what once was thought to be a TC, but now, is most like the Giants RS card.

1966topps517whitesox_below Giants RS.jpg

[Kevvyg1026]

The slit pattern I used, under the assumption that NO row changes occurred (since we haven't observed any) is as follows:

Slit A; ABCDEFGABCDE
Slit B: DEFGABCDEFGA

This puts Aaron at both the top of a slit and the bottom of a slit (evidence supports that) and also puts Gonzalez at the top of one slit with Nuxhall at the bottom of the other.

1966_500_BE_+Mk.jpg

[deweyinthehall]

Don't think I've seen that Coleman with a rookie stars next door. That would be good to see.

With your LE/RE comparison above, you have Moeller with the 6th series checklist - Moeller seems clearly a 3x and the checklist a 4x, no? And Gonzalez seems to be a 4x while Giants R's is a 3x - maybe switch those?

[Kevvyg1026]

We have evidence (miscuts) that show:

1. check 6 (Moeller row) is under Hamilton.
2. check 6 over Wood
3. Wood over Giants RS
4. Giants RS over check 7
5. Edwards over carreon
6. Carreon over Hamilton

In a very early post, there was a mc posted showing Fox below, ostensibly, the Cubs RS, which would suppport a row change. However, I think that mc was incorrectly identified and is simply a small portion of Nuxhall.

CubsRS_Fpx.jpg

1966_483_472_V_fox - nuxhall 1 (1).jpg

[Kevvyg1026]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

I ran across this miscut last night that I didn't know I had because I listed it as a 7 Series rather than a 6 Series, it shows #511 Giants Rookie Stars at the top of a Slit which I believe puts the card at the end of the 4x Aaron row. I am puzzled why this card and Camilo Carreon have lower than normal 4x quantities on eBay but as of now all of the evidence has them at the end of 4x rows.

This should be in the Gonzalez row, which is also at the top of a slit

[Kevvyg1026]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

I bought the Woodeshick and a miscut Barry Latman that might have Larry Bearnarth under him from the same seller on eBay, I will post better scans of both when I get them.

Might be Azcue below Latman

[Kevvyg1026]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Oops, I am wrong about that first column then, Bob Lee doesn’t go over Jim Wynn.

I actually do think it is Lee over Wynn

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Might be Azcue below Latman

Cliff showed a blow up of the Latman a day ago or so making it clear Stuart is under Latman.

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I actually do think it is Lee over Wynn

That might be a difficult match as I am tracking these two partials:

Bunker
Lee
Richardson
Rodgers
Lolich

And:

Wynn
Ferrara
Hargan
Phillies
Buchek
Covington

Having said this the last couple days of card placement have been a whirlwind and I may have missed something.

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

This should be in the Gonzalez row, which is also at the top of a slit

I think we've ID'd 6 cards that sit atop a slit:
Aaron (4x)
Gonzalez (4x)
Wilhelm (4x)
Lolich (hard to say)
Giants Rookies (3x)
Wynn (4x)

Even assuming Lolich to be a 4x - how can the Giants Rookies be a 3x at the top in either the Gonzalez or Aaron rows?

IF it is possible that Giants rookies is a 4x it could make the 7th series checklist a 3x.

[Kevvyg1026]

Using the pattern I mentioned before and this layout, (meaning Aaron and Gonzalez rows will be at top of each slit), I get Lolich in a top row and Wynn under Lee. Yes, sometimes the ebay counts don't always support 3x vs 4x exactly, but we've seen that discrepency before because of card popularity.

1966_series6.png

[Cliff Bowman]

This series has kicked my butt, I need to take a break from it and start it all over. I cannot figure out which are the three 4x cards in the right edge column other than Hamilton, it keeps coming out as the two checklists. It may be true with Checklist 6 with R. Sox but there is no way Checklist 7 is a 4x because it was also printed on the 7th series sheets and it has very low quantities. I haven't seen proof of any row changes, which is very odd for a Topps 77 card series. The only time I have seen that was with the 1964 77 card series. I thought O'Donoghue had a row change above him but I now think that is a Jimenez card with a color shift.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Don't think I've seen that Coleman with a rookie stars next door. That would be good to see.

You were the one who came up with the Red Sox Rookies being to the right of Coleman in post #160. It is definitely a Rookie Stars card. On top of that Red Sox Rookies has a Rookie Stars card to the right of it.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Might be Azcue below Latman

Azcue has a Rookie Stars card above him.

[Kevvyg1026]

I don't know the specific rows that column 11 is in but that pattern and the order of the seven cards is correct. So if we accept that Hamilton is a 4X then he must be in either the Aaron row , the Gonzales row , or the nuxhall row.

So depending upon where Hamilton goes determines which cards are 4x and which cards are 3x. So we can cycle through and figure out where to put Hamilton so that you can determine the proper 4X cards.

It may be that Hamilton is in the nuxhall row, which would make giants rs and carreon 4x and the other 4 cards 3x.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I don't know the specific rows that column 11 is in but that pattern and the order of the seven cards is correct. So if we accept that Hamilton is a 4X then he must be in either the Aaron row , the Gonzales row , or the nuxhall row.

So depending upon where Hamilton goes determines which cards are 4x and which cards are 3x. So we can cycle through and figure out where to put Hamilton so that you can determine the proper 4X cards.

It may be that Hamilton is in the nuxhall row, which would make giants rs and carreon 4x and the other 4 cards 3x.

I can see the Giants Rookie Stars (Tito Fuentes) having suppressed quantities for a 4x but there is no logical reason for Camilo Carreon to be a 4x with 3x quantities.

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

You were the one who came up with the Red Sox Rookies being to the right of Coleman in post #160. It is definitely a Rookie Stars card. On top of that Red Sox Rookies has a Rookie Stars card to the right of it.

My mind is turning to mush on this subject lately - I checked and this is even listed as a match on the spreadsheet I've been pouring over lately!

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

I can see the Giants Rookie Stars (Tito Fuentes) having suppressed quantities for a 4x but there is no logical reason for Camilo Carreon to be a 4x with 3x quantities.

Hard to see why Giants Rookies would have demand, but whatever the cause because we know it sits at the top of a slit, along with either Aaron or Gonzalez, it has to be the 4x, no?

[Kevvyg1026]

We have vertical miscuts supporting the vertical column:

Giants RS-Checklist (check 7)

and

Edwards-Carreon
Carreon-Hamilton
Hamilton-Check6
Check 6-J Wood
J Wood-Giants RS

I haven't seen anything tying Edwards to a checklist, but it must be in the location noted, unless there is/are a row switch (which we haven't seen yet).

I agree that it's hard to fathom why Carreon might be a 4x, but I can't explain why the quantities on ebay are what they are.

All I'm trying to communicate is that, with no row changes, and Hamilton being a 4x (which we all seem to accept), then Hamilton must be in either the Aaron row, Gonzalez row, or Nuxhall row.

If Hamilton is in the Aaron row, then Giants RS and check 7 are 4x.

If Hamilton is in the Gonzalez row, then the 4x cards must be the two checklists.

And if Hamilton is in the Nuxhall row, then the 4x cards are Carreon and Giants RS.

Each of those choices have drawbacks, but IMO, Hamilton being in the Nuxhall row is the least noxious, and therefore, the most appealing

[Kevvyg1026]

Are there any horizontal miscuts related to the 7 left edge cards?

[deweyinthehall]

Latman to the left of Carreon as ID'd by Cliff recently.

[Kevvyg1026]

Yes, I have that. But I don't have any for the leading edge cards like Aaron, Skinner, Cubs RS, etc.

[deweyinthehall]

Sorry - wrong edge. I have nothing for the left edge.

[deweyinthehall]

This Hal Woodeshick has me a little worried - if you blow it up, the yellow card below clearly looks like it has an image background that is dark right up to the thin black border, and if you look all the way in the very right corner there looks to be a very skinny sliver of greenish coloring.

I have gone through the yellows and the only one not in a completed row and/or with a dark image background is Simmons - but his background isn't really that dark.

But look at Jake Wood sitting over there in the right edge - a dark background, and, look closely, a tiny veritcal sliver of lighter green in the very right corner.

Do you see it?

Please tell me we haven't erred in placing Wood in the RE or in NOT placing Woodeshick there?!?

[Cliff Bowman]

If there one thing I am certain of in this series it’s that we have the correct seven cards in the first column and the last column.

[deweyinthehall]

Kevvy posted this image of Tommy John a short while back - it's Klippstein. You can see a couple small bumps along the bottom edge of the blue, which are consistent with every Klippstein I've seen, and with no other Blues.

[Kevvyg1026]

There was a Miscut posted earlier of wood and he is definitely in column 11

[deweyinthehall]

This Bobby Richardson popped today on eBay - by my way of figuring, the gray card below him has to be either McDowell or Banks. The reverse image has absolutely no trace of the adjacent card.