seeking opinions on '56 Topps Clemente

[itjclarke]

I purchased the Campanella ball here on BST. I have no questions about the seller's honesty/integrity, but am curious what others may think of this ball. Signed on an old MacGregor little league ball.
Roy Campanella signed ball.jpg

... and while I'm at it, curious what folks think about the Clemente. I picked this one up a few year ago raw. Rolled the dice on what I'm hoping is just a sloppy sig.
1956 Topps Roberto Clemente signed raw flash close.jpg
1956 Topps Roberto Clemente signed raw close.jpg

[vthobby]

I'm no expert but in my opinion I think the Clemente has a better shot than the Campy at being legit. Just my 2 cents.

Mike

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

That Campy is trying to emulate a post-accident example?! Hard pass. Hilariously, it appears that whoever signed it was trying to do a strange dance between pre- and post-accident versions.

Campy was incapable of signing the continuously round surface of baseballs after the accident. The only post-accident Campy balls you will want to own are Rawlings ONL Bill White with the Rawlings logo improperly stamped above the sweet spot. These were custom made for Campy to sign across the sweet spot as flat figure 8 pieces of leather which were later stitched up to complete the ball. The vast majority of these aren't pretty, and uneven toning over the years has certainly further destroyed a lot of their aesthetic, but this is what to purchase if you don't want to drop thousands on a pre-accident example.

That is one of the absolute messiest Clementes I have ever seen! It may in fact take the cake for the sloppiest. Do not be surprised if any TPA decides to go inconclusive on it, but it's good. Heck, they might even pass it, but they'd be wise to not dismiss it altogether.

[vthobby]

Well said on both accounts.

That Clemente like I said has a good chance. It looks like an early sig and a kid with a card and a ballpoint is not going to get the cleanest sig if he met Roberto at the park or wherever.

I really like the Clemente if you ever decide to move it.

Thanks!

[7nohitter]

Is Campyfan accepting a return on the ball?

[rand1com]

I don't like either one.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by vthobby

Well said on both accounts.

That Clemente like I said has a good chance. It looks like an early sig and a kid with a card and a ballpoint is not going to get the cleanest sig if he met Roberto at the park or wherever.

I really like the Clemente if you ever decide to move it.

Thanks!

Thanks for the opinions so far. Your mentioned scenario was my precise hope on the Clemente. Kid with card and pen at the ballpark, and he’s trying to sign it in hand, and basically whiffed on most of his opening R. The tail end of the sig looks like many of the examples I see out there. I may get it graded someday, then would consider moving it.

Re- Campy, I hadn’t imagined it as a post accident sig, as those were really choppy. I figured/hoped it was also maybe a rush job at the ballpark. Campyfan and I had a pre-sale agreement if it doesn’t pass TPG. I felt good dealing with him, and I decided to roll the dice a bit. So far seems opinions on it are all negative though.

[rand1com]

Zero chance the Campy is pre accident.

Good luck on the Clemente but I have serious doubts it could be authenticated by a third party.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by rand1com

Zero chance the Campy is pre accident.

Good luck on the Clemente but I have serious doubts it could be authenticated by a third party.

Thanks for the input. I'm not at all versed in the process and don't have a clear idea as to what will or won't pass and why. I've only submitted 2x items to TPA, one a Duke Snider rookie, which passed and one a very authentic in-person Waukesha Sport Cards' Hank Aaron rookie, which did not. The latter was frustrating and turned me off to the process. I have a lot of cards signed in person during childhood, which I'll never consider having authenticated. However on one like the Clemente, I feel like it's a must if I eventually sell.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Thanks for the input. I'm not at all versed in the process and don't have a clear idea as to what will or won't pass and why. I've only submitted 2x items to TPA, one a Duke Snider rookie, which passed and one a very authentic in-person Waukesha Sport Cards' Hank Aaron rookie, which did not. The latter was frustrating and turned me off to the process. I have a lot of cards signed in person during childhood, which I'll never consider having authenticated. However on one like the Clemente, I feel like it's a must if I eventually sell.

Eventually, they'll all be sold...

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

Eventually, they'll all be sold...

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Or none will. At least in my lifetime. May grade and sell Clemente only because it's a dupe.

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Thanks for the input. I'm not at all versed in the process and don't have a clear idea as to what will or won't pass and why. I've only submitted 2x items to TPA, one a Duke Snider rookie, which passed and one a very authentic in-person Waukesha Sport Cards' Hank Aaron rookie, which did not. The latter was frustrating and turned me off to the process. I have a lot of cards signed in person during childhood, which I'll never consider having authenticated. However on one like the Clemente, I feel like it's a must if I eventually sell.

Why don’t you post the in person Aaron that was rejected on here for us to see?

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by rand1com

Why don’t you post the in person Aaron that was rejected on here for us to see?

This was from a while back, maybe 2015 or 16. It's part of my collection, so doesn't matter much whether authenticated. I could've paid for JSA to authenticate on site, but I didn't want their sticker on the back.

ADDING- when I pushed back on PSA and showed them the Waukesha receipts, etc, they gave me a voucher to have the card re-assessed. At the time, I think it only cost $29. I never used it though.

1954 Topps Hank Aaron signed Waukeshau.jpg

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

This was from a while back, maybe 2015 or 16. It's part of my collection, so doesn't matter much whether authenticated. I could've paid for JSA to authenticate on site, but I didn't want their sticker on the back.

ADDING- when I pushed back on PSA and showed them the Waukesha receipts, etc, they gave me a voucher to have the card re-assessed. At the time, I think it only cost $29. I never used it though.

Attachment 605338

That is a very nice card. Let me know if you ever sell the Clemente! Or the Aaron for that matter. Thanks!

[itjclarke]

Thanks much Mike, I will do for sure.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

It's certainly unusual in that Aaron apparently put some sort of straightedge paper underneath where he signed his first name, adding the underhanging flourish to the H afterward. There's no denying it's his autograph, however.

I'm racking my brain to recall if I've seen him employ this method in the past because I feel I have. I also have a memory of seeing a photo of Mr. Aaron using this approach. It wasn't something he did with any sort of frequency. Maybe he was having health or vision struggles that day and was just making sure he didn't do a poor job. Robb at Waukesha is great at communicating; drop him a line about this!

I did go back to find some photos from 2015-16 signings and am not finding any corroborating evidence.

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

This was from a while back, maybe 2015 or 16. It's part of my collection, so doesn't matter much whether authenticated. I could've paid for JSA to authenticate on site, but I didn't want their sticker on the back.

ADDING- when I pushed back on PSA and showed them the Waukesha receipts, etc, they gave me a voucher to have the card re-assessed. At the time, I think it only cost $29. I never used it though.

Attachment 605338

Very nice card.

The autograph looks OK to me but the "H" is definitely strange with the tail when forming the "H". I have never seen one like that.

You mentioned you did not want a JSA sticker on the card. I don't blame you for that but you can get a pictured certificate for a little more money and they will put the sticker on the LOA if you specify that when you submit the card.

Getting it authenticated makes sense for value purposes whether you ever sell it or not. It will protect your heirs if they decide to sell it some day.

I think it will pass.

Beckett is another option if you want it encapsulated since JSA does not do that.

The authentication fee for Aaron is reasonable.

Thanks for showing the autograph in question.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

If I'm wrong about the straightedge, a question I'd have is: did you place a Post-It on the front of the card in the area under where he signed his first name? Lots of people do this when sending into signings to indicate where they want the card signed. If so, was it slightly askew as his autograph is? Could be a case of them not taking the confounded Post-It off before he started signing. I've certainly seen this happen time and again, if not worse: the player actually signs partially on the Post-It! It would definitely make sense if that's what you did, as we know that Aaron favored signing the RC below his image as opposed to where yours was signed.

Note to EVERYBODY: When sending in to signings, unless the promoter is very specific about adding a Post-It to the front, it would be wise to reconsider doing so. I know I've had issues as a result, as has practically everyone else I know at one time or another. Safer to figure out another method, such as sending a printout of your items with mock "signature/inscription(s)" in the area you want your piece(s) signed, and with whatever color ink/marker you want used. Some promoters don't want the supposed "headache" of toting around the extra paperwork. To them, I say, it's your job. Deal with it.

[Republicaninmass]

Maybe they forgot to have him sign it? Looks slowly drawn, that H is horrendous

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by rand1com

Very nice card.

The autograph looks OK to me but the "H" is definitely strange with the tail when forming the "H". I have never seen one like that.

You mentioned you did not want a JSA sticker on the card. I don't blame you for that but you can get a pictured certificate for a little more money and they will put the sticker on the LOA if you specify that when you submit the card.

Getting it authenticated makes sense for value purposes whether you ever sell it or not. It will protect your heirs if they decide to sell it some day.

I think it will pass.

Beckett is another option if you want it encapsulated since JSA does not do that.

The authentication fee for Aaron is reasonable.

Thanks for showing the autograph in question.

This was an option but at the time I didn’t want to pay the extra, whatever $$ JSA was asking for the full LOA service. Again, this was a several years ago, costs on everything were far lower, thus an extra $50 (or whatever) seemed like a lot. I remember feeling super proud to get the card + auto for a few hundred less than they were selling for the time. Funny now, given 2 figures seems like a dime relative to anything today.

The main reason I then tried to have PSA holder it was A) they were grading at a show I attended, and B) I wanted the joint card grade + authentication service. I thought those looked slick and remember there also being a loophole where getting the card graded/sig authenticated were only as much as grading only would’ve been (or something like that). The card itself had been an under-graded SGC40 (at least by last decade’s standards), and I thought it would be nice to have a 4 or 5 signed and holdered.

Anyway, I appreciate the comments about the Aaron, though it was not in question and I have no plans for it. I know it’s genuine and happily lives in a top loader. I only brought it up as an example of a long past issue I’d had with the TPA process.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by rand1com

Good luck on the Clemente but I have serious doubts it could be authenticated by a third party.

Well, I'm happy to learn that my '56 Clemente did pass PSA's auto authentication. SCP offered to have it checked for me, while grading some other items I consigned to them. Will be psyched to get it.

[rand1com]

Congrats on the autograph. It was so messy I just figured they would either fail it or pass on giving an opinion at all.

Getting it authenticated makes it worth a LOT more if you ever decide to sell.

[chaddurbin]

Once again billycox is correct. Why hasn't one of the big TPA try to hire him for vintage already? He's prolly forgotten more about autographs then what some of these tpa know!

[Brick442]

The Campy ball looks like it could be a Roy II special (not Roy Jr. as he points out). He signed for his father sometimes.

Here is an example of an Elder PC signed by Roy II.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by rand1com

Congrats on the autograph. It was so messy I just figured they would either fail it or pass on giving an opinion at all.

Getting it authenticated makes it worth a LOT more if you ever decide to sell.

I trusted your opinion on this and submitted with very measured expectations. I think it may have helped that I submitted via an AH, SCP, and that I also submitted another 1960 Topps Clemente for crossover from SGC. 1960 passed as well and I'll be consigning that one but keeping the 56.

Gotta give props to SCP and Brandan. Super cool guy, no pressure to sell, and helped me to decide card by card which ones to grade and/or cross. Even though I'd never care as a collector, the 1960 is definitely better to sell in a PSA holder vs SGC. It was my first ever AH consignment and I think I'll probably use them going forward.

Originally Posted by Brick442

The Campy ball looks like it could be a Roy II special (not Roy Jr. as he points out). He signed for his father sometimes.

Here is an example of an Elder PC signed by Roy II.

Interesting, thanks for posting the exemplar. That Campy ball was a good cautionary buying tale for me. I'll eat the loss and I still display it with other period Brooklyn stuff because it looks cool.

[itjclarke]

Now in the PSA holder

Keeping the '56, but consigned my 1960 Topps if anyone is interested.
https://catalogs.scpauctions.com/onl...ew-70406980051