Dealers' Pricing at the National

[jethrod3]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

I’m going to start telling my clients what my expenses are. Curious to how they will react
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I set up at a local show this weekend where the table fee was $200/table. I overhear a discussion at the table next to me. He actually had 3 tables and had traveled from Utah to Indianapolis. Customer (a teenager, there with his mom) was trying to knock the price of a ~$25 item down a couple of bucks. Dealer politely informs teenager about travel costs, hotel and table fees. Mom looks at teenager and tells him to give him the extra couple of bucks! Lesson learned!

My take: Many older customers especially those just getting into or back into the hobby need their mom or the ghost of their mom to snap them back to reality.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by CardsMax

on items where they have the leverage to sell high, they're going to maximize their dollar

Absolutely true. It is all about who has the leverage. A seller of a T206 Wagner, yes; a 2023 Ohtani, not so much. Nothing new there, and a good reason why modern goes up and then crashes. Once the hype is over, the supply is ridiculously large relative to realistic demand, which is why the sellers start to hype nonsense like PSA 10 grades: of the 250,000 slabbed, only 7,500 are PSA 10. Wow, let me just rush right on out there to get 75 of them. There are still way more cards than anyone wants, and the 30,000 9s are indistinguishable from the 10s if you mixed them on a table with the labels covered.

Originally Posted by jethrod3

Many older customers especially those just getting into or back into the hobby need their mom or the ghost of their mom to snap them back to reality.

I think that goes for most people; been on a plane lately? I have a friend who is a flight attendant and she hates her job with a passion since the pandemic. People turn into big, whiny, nasty babies the moment they board.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

been flying a lot lately. Behavior and sense of entitlement on flights is absolutely insane. Rules apparently don't apply to almost anyone.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by ocjack

I agree with Adam. I spent years attending and setting up at shows. I would walk around looking for cards on my want list, but I would always go through the dealers 1957 Topps commons. My time was rewarded by finding two Bakep error cards and paying pennies because the dealer classified them as commons. Not every dealer is aware of every possible card of value and if you have the time and the patience, you can take advantage of their lack of knowledge or maybe on a kinder note, their laziness in determing what they really had. And as a side-note as to the scarcity of the Bakep card - probably 15 years of shows and only found 2.

Lol, you just reminded me of one of the card show lessons I have taught my son and always seems to do me well (especially prior to the pandemic). If you see a dealer table with nothing but modern, take a look in their bulk card boxes. They likely have bought some older cards from a walk up or in a big collection and they likely have no clue on earth what they bought. I have grabbed many a gem from those tables for damn near pennies.

[jethrod3]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Absolutely true. It is all about who has the leverage. A seller of a T206 Wagner, yes; a 2023 Ohtani, not so much. Nothing new there, and a good reason why modern goes up and then crashes. Once the hype is over, the supply is ridiculously large relative to realistic demand, which is why the sellers start to hype nonsense like PSA 10 grades: of the 250,000 slabbed, only 7,500 are PSA 10. Wow, let me just rush right on out there to get 75 of them. There are still way more cards than anyone wants, and the 30,000 9s are indistinguishable from the 10s if you mixed them on a table with the labels covered.



I think that goes for most people; been on a plane lately? I have a friend who is a flight attendant and she hates her job with a passion since the pandemic. People turn into big, whiny, nasty babies the moment they board.

Quite true, Adam. As someone else mentioned, the sense of entitlement is just bewildering these days.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

been flying a lot lately. Behavior and sense of entitlement on flights is absolutely insane. Rules apparently don't apply to almost anyone.

The Nike store in downtown Bethesda, MD gets robbed twice every week (for the last 3 weeks). A group of people walk in, grab a bunch a stuff and walk out. Nobody does anything. My kids were there last week when it happened -- no violence, they never felt in danger, it was all very civilized, etc. Just seems there are no rules anywhere anymore

[hcv123]

I am really bothered by some of the gross generalizations that have been made in this thread. While in my experience - I understand there are some dealers that do business in a way that perpetuates some of the perceptions expressed in this thread- there are quite a few fair and reasonable dealers that conduct business with integrity.

Do auction houses get thrown under the bus for taking anywhere between 15 and 30+% of a consignment - even for the 90+% of items that DON'T sell for the "RECORD PRICES" they like to advertise? But dealers are called "lowballers" for offering the same 70-85% of fair market?

If you owned a premium example or rare card, would you be willing to sell it to anyone under market or would you be trying to get top dollar for it? Why is the expectation of a dealer any different?

Dealers have been part (Collectors being the other) of the backbone of this hobby for years.

I am told by others I have a reputation for fair pricing - I'm not giving stuff away, but I'm also not 2X last recent sale of a comparable card.

You want "deals" come to my booth (1034) and let's talk about the stuff that is readily available - I think you will be quite happy with the "deal". I have dealers regularly coming over and purchasing from me, so they must think I have "good deals"!

You want to buy the 2nd highest graded of 4 known examples of a complete 1968 Roberto Clemente bazooka box (or similar items - a number of which I will be offering)? Sorry, not going to be much "dealing" on that one. That said, you will likely be extremely excited at the opportunity to acquire such a rare item - even if you had to pay up for it!

You want to stop by and just talk baseball cards - come on by - I love sharing my passion for the hobby with others!

I will also be buying. trading and accepting select private consignments (NOT an auction - more price control and commissions as low as 7.5%) at the show. Contacting me in advance to set up an appointment or begin a discussion of what you have is recommended, if last year was any indication, I expect it to be an insanely busy show.

Howard Chasser
A Few of My Favorite Things

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

been flying a lot lately. Behavior and sense of entitlement on flights is absolutely insane. Rules apparently don't apply to almost anyone.

When you have politicians do whatever they want, say whatever they want, blame everyone else for everything, and take zero responsibility, what do you really expect? Monkey see, monkey do.

[Touch'EmAll]

I am not a dealer. But this is America, and dealers have the right to do whatever they like with their cards and pricing. Although it is in their best interest to be responsive and polite. If you don't like the price, talk to them nicely, politely ask if they would sell for "X", and if not, then move on. There is so much product to spend your money on, don't get caught up on any one particular card. And obviously if you are looking for a rare card or in a hard to find great eye appeal condition, then expect to pay up. Don't be nasty, or bicker, or down talk them, be nice. We all like this hobby, no matter which perspective we are in - dealer or consumer. Without the dealers, we have no show. And for you dealers out there, without customers, we have no show.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I am really bothered by some of the gross generalizations that have been made in this thread. While in my experience - I understand there are some dealers that do business in a way that perpetuates some of the perceptions expressed in this thread- there are quite a few fair and reasonable dealers that conduct business with integrity.

Do auction houses get thrown under the bus for taking anywhere between 15 and 30+% of a consignment - even for the 90+% of items that DON'T sell for the "RECORD PRICES" they like to advertise? But dealers are called "lowballers" for offering the same 70-85% of fair market?

If you owned a premium example or rare card, would you be willing to sell it to anyone under market or would you be trying to get top dollar for it? Why is the expectation of a dealer any different?

Dealers have been part (Collectors being the other) of the backbone of this hobby for years.

I am told by others I have a reputation for fair pricing - I'm not giving stuff away, but I'm also not 2X last recent sale of a comparable card.

You want "deals" come to my booth (1034) and let's talk about the stuff that is readily available - I think you will be quite happy with the "deal". I have dealers regularly coming over and purchasing from me, so they must think I have "good deals"!

You want to buy the 2nd highest graded of 4 known examples of a complete 1968 Roberto Clemente bazooka box (or similar items - a number of which I will be offering)? Sorry, not going to be much "dealing" on that one. That said, you will likely be extremely excited at the opportunity to acquire such a rare item - even if you had to pay up for it!

You want to stop by and just talk baseball cards - come on by - I love sharing my passion for the hobby with others!

I will also be buying. trading and accepting select private consignments (NOT an auction - more price control and commissions as low as 7.5%) at the show. Contacting me in advance to set up an appointment or begin a discussion of what you have is recommended, if last year was any indication, I expect it to be an insanely busy show.

Howard Chasser
A Few of My Favorite Things

Howard,

I understand why you would be bothered, I've always felt your prices were fair, I happily bought from you at one of the Philly shows a couple of years back, we had a nice conversation too about the 1959 Bazooka series.

Not that I am as an experienced of a collector as some of the other members of the forum, but what I will say is the most pleasant interactions I have ever had with dealers, were ones that have been in the hobby for a long time. I don't want to generalize, but a lot of the younger dealers, ones in their mid 20s for an example, have often rubbed me the wrong way, immediately saying how much they are "in" on a card, or using almost used car-salesmen lingo about how I'm never going to get or see "x at this price, ever again." This could just be me though.

I'm looking forward to seeing you at any future shows, talking the hobby, and hopefully making a purchase, again.

- James

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

The Nike store in downtown Bethesda, MD gets robbed twice every week (for the last 3 weeks). A group of people walk in, grab a bunch a stuff and walk out. Nobody does anything. My kids were there last week when it happened -- no violence, they never felt in danger, it was all very civilized, etc. Just seems there are no rules anywhere anymore

When the punishments are subjectively removed in many states, those without moral compass tend to have zero reason to avoid lawlessness. Soon many major cities will lose all ability to purchase important items like basic staples due to states prosecutorial negligent law changes leaving those without the ability to drive out of the city without options. You can't blame stores for leaving when they operate at a loss. The unknowing will state they have insurance but companies or small businesses cannot afford the rates for policies that have claims that are higher than their sales.

The repercussions of this will cause decades of distress for cities and their residents. It's just really sad when I still regularly see the damage the riots of 67' did here that still have never recovered. No one knows what is really coming from these events and you don't want it. One positive in Detroit is that we already know what happens and have quite honestly avoided most of the issues the past years as the city is somewhat self-protective due to our past. It took literally 50 years for real grocery stores to return to the city proper, those that remember their absence don't wish to lose them again.

That said, it still exists and we are trying to keep it from escalating. It's both comforting and sad the couple times a year I go to the nice mall a mile down the road and the luxury side seems to have more armed guards than Blackwater has on the payroll. What a world to raise a kid in...

[Exhibitman]

Unfortunately, we have substituted the language of blameless status for the language of personal responsibility in many walks of life. It is a short step from thinking that nothing about your life is your responsibility to thinking that everything is your right. Hence the whining about the evil, awful dealers price gouging. Guess what: none of us has a right to a 'reasonable' price for someone else's goods. Simple enough answer: don't buy stuff you think costs too much. Of the tables that have material I collect, I probably walk right by 50% of them because I can see that the prices are more than I want to spend.

[Casey2296]

As long as we're talking about it.

I'll pay a fair finders fee for any Texas Tommys, Western Playgrounds, Zeenuts w/coupon, E94 Crawford and Cobb, T217 Mono without creases, T215 Red Cross, Red Crofts, Blue Crofts, Bender white cap T216 Kotton "Not in Trust", E105 Mello Mint, D303 General Baking, and blank back.

If I could get just one from that list I promise I won't complain about "dealer prices".

[jethrod3]

The cards I will be looking for at the National are not rare. Somewhat desirable, but not rare, especially in the condition that I'm searching for. I'm talking several of the star cards from the 1955 Topps baseball set, in VG-EX condition. Cards like Williams and Banks. If I can find dealers willing to sell me cards a tad bit lower than the usual auction price, I will be happy. Why? Because I will likely be able to choose from probably 10-20 of these cards in the condition/price range I am looking for. Also, the dealer avoids paying a consignment fee, and I avoid paying a buyer's premium if it was to be sold/bought at auction. In most cases I'd predict that the dealer would still make over 25% of what he/she paid for the card, and probably pockets $50-$100 per card. I get a good deal, and I also feel good that I'm helping to do my part to offset expenses, having just been on the other side of the table. With fair pricing, and the recognition of fair pricing, everyone wins.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Unfortunately, we have substituted the language of blameless status for the language of personal responsibility in many walks of life. It is a short step from thinking that nothing about your life is your responsibility to thinking that everything is your right. Hence the whining about the evil, awful dealers price gouging. Guess what: none of us has a right to a 'reasonable' price for someone else's goods. Simple enough answer: don't buy stuff you think costs too much. Of the tables that have material I collect, I probably walk right by 50% of them because I can see that the prices are more than I want to spend.

You hit the nail right on the head.

I am amazed at the collectors that have this mentality:

"My cards are worth so much. But I won't pay those prices" or

"These prices are reasonable, but my stuff is now worth less, so I can't pay that"

Folks, prices go up and down. If you want the card, buy it. If you don't, move on.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by jethrod3

The cards I will be looking for at the National are not rare. Somewhat desirable, but not rare, especially in the condition that I'm searching for. I'm talking several of the star cards from the 1955 Topps baseball set, in VG-EX condition. Cards like Williams and Banks. If I can find dealers willing to sell me cards a tad bit lower than the usual auction price, I will be happy. Why? Because I will likely be able to choose from probably 10-20 of these cards in the condition/price range I am looking for. Also, the dealer avoids paying a consignment fee, and I avoid paying a buyer's premium if it was to be sold/bought at auction. In most cases I'd predict that the dealer would still make over 25% of what he/she paid for the card, and probably pockets $50-$100 per card. I get a good deal, and I also feel good that I'm helping to do my part to offset expenses, having just been on the other side of the table. With fair pricing, and the recognition of fair pricing, everyone wins.

BTW -- this *IS* the circumstances of which walking around the room and taking notes on pricing makes sense. As he notes. these are not scarce cards at an NSCC and patience pays off for buying the cards he is looking for.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

BTW -- this *IS* the circumstances of which walking around the room and taking notes on pricing makes sense. As he notes. these are not scarce cards at an NSCC and patience pays off for buying the cards he is looking for.

100% agree Rich. This is the right opinion.

I did this the last National as I walked the floor for a few cards that were all readily available from multiple dealers. If you spot a rare piece that you don't exactly come across too often, then you don't mind spending a little over what it went for at its last auction.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by jethrod3

The cards I will be looking for at the National are not rare. Somewhat desirable, but not rare, especially in the condition that I'm searching for. I'm talking several of the star cards from the 1955 Topps baseball set, in VG-EX condition. Cards like Williams and Banks. If I can find dealers willing to sell me cards a tad bit lower than the usual auction price, I will be happy. Why? Because I will likely be able to choose from probably 10-20 of these cards in the condition/price range I am looking for. Also, the dealer avoids paying a consignment fee, and I avoid paying a buyer's premium if it was to be sold/bought at auction. In most cases I'd predict that the dealer would still make over 25% of what he/she paid for the card, and probably pockets $50-$100 per card. I get a good deal, and I also feel good that I'm helping to do my part to offset expenses, having just been on the other side of the table. With fair pricing, and the recognition of fair pricing, everyone wins.

This'll be me too. I'm going to be on the lookout for some cool memorabilia and maybe a few scarce cards. But mostly I'll be trying to find good value on on post-war cards to complete my sets.

Unlike many on here I'm going to be trying to get my fill of raw 50s,60s and 70s commons in high grades and a handful of stars. But my circumstances are different from most. Being based in the UK, I can find the star cards in auctions and on Ebay. Getting commons is tougher.

Besides meeting fellow collectors, I'm looking forward to spending hours pulling commons from trays and bargain bins.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

In hindsight I made a few collossal blunders at past Nationals. Some guy wanted $6000 for a 1932 US Caramel Gehrig. PSA 6. Wouldn't take plastic and I wasn't heading out into Chicago to round up 60 $100 bills. No ATM in the world will give you that much cash, so I would have likely had to go into town and found a Chase bank somewhere that was open. A ridiculous hassle, but looking at the price of that card today maybe I should have figured it out.

You also can go to the casino right down the road they usually have hi limit atms that will give you a lot more than standard atms.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by conor912

I’ve never understood this argument. As an attendee from out of state, except for table fees, I’ve spent the same before even buying a card 😀

And this is why I'll probably never go to the National. I can find almost anything I want for about $3000 less if I buy it online. Not that I wouldn't have fun in the presence of all the cool material, but it's not $3000 worth of fun.

[Jewish-collector]

The novelty of the National is over. The only reason to go nowadays is to attend the Net54 dinner.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Yoda

It's no secret that 50's and 60's vintage HOF card prices have slipped over the past year or so, even some big stars like Koufax and Aaron. It makes me wonder if dealers' pricing at the National will be realistic, or in many cases still inflated. Dean's Cards springs to mind. If nothing else it should give serious buyers more purchasing power to strike deals with case owners.

50s and 60s cards have slipped? Not from my experience. I buy and sell a ton of 50s cards and I'm still having to pay new all-time highs for what I want every month. And when I sell, it's often another new all-time high.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Yoda

It's no secret that 50's and 60's vintage HOF card prices have slipped over the past year or so, even some big stars like Koufax and Aaron. It makes me wonder if dealers' pricing at the National will be realistic, or in many cases still inflated. Dean's Cards springs to mind. If nothing else it should give serious buyers more purchasing power to strike deals with case owners.

I think most pricing will be unrealistic as usual. That said, there are always bargains to be found. And there might be items you don't see elsewhere.
.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Snowman

50s and 60s cards have slipped? Not from my experience. I buy and sell a ton of 50s cards and I'm still having to pay new all-time highs for what I want every month. And when I sell, it's often another new all-time high.

Travis - any chance that your experience is somewhat slanted due to your extreme focus on centering? As you've noted before, for perfectly centered cards, there tends to be a serious premium. Not sure if all of your purchases and sales are perfectly centered, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're going for a premium due to the strong centering.