Hey, pennant guys

[perezfan]

Absent the 3D lettering and 2-color tassels, I seriously doubt it's a Detroit Free Press pennant. Not positive it's even a Red Sox Pennant, although I would lean towards "yes". The colors are right and the style is consistent with known exemplars.

Still (IMHO) there's a 10 - 20% chance it's just a period city/souvenir pennant. As far as it being specifically from 1915, I see no evidence of that. There's really no way to pinpoint the year without a vintage photo, advertisement, catalog listing, etc. The year 1915 seems very plausible (given the style), but the owner would need to share specific provenance/information to that effect.

[bobfreedman]

I am not much of a pennant guy but thought I would share my most recent acquisition

[bocca001]

Wow! That's really cool.

[murphusa]

a great, great item for a Reds and a pennant collector.

[MK]

Beautiful piece of Reds history!

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

I am not much of a pennant guy but thought I would share my most recent acquisition

That’s fantastic! Great piece!

[edtiques]

I have a chance to buy this Cubs pennant. I'd appreciate anyone who could give me a value on it. I could only find one like it but that one was autographed by all three players for $300.00. Thanks in advance!!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by edtiques

I have a chance to buy this Cubs pennant. I'd appreciate anyone who could give me a value on it. I could only find one like it but that one was autographed by all three players for $300.00. Thanks in advance!!

The others will weigh in on value….but ai really like it! Three great players!

[edtiques]

Thanks Rob! I found a similar one with the pictures of 12 players. That one sold for $200 which was on Esty so there wasn't any bidding.


https://www.etsy.com/listing/9812379...isting_details

[MK]

Originally Posted by edtiques

I have a chance to buy this Cubs pennant. I'd appreciate anyone who could give me a value on it. I could only find one like it but that one was autographed by all three players for $300.00. Thanks in advance!!

I think the three player one is a little tougher to find than the 12 player one. I would say around $150 for the 3 player version.

[edtiques]

Originally Posted by MK

I think the three player one is a little tougher to find than the 12 player one. I would say around $150 for the 3 player version.

Thank you for that information!!

[UKCardGuy]

I bough this 3 cubs cub power pennant in white last year. Pretty tough to find it, esp in red. I'd value it at between $150 - 225. I've seen people asking £300 but they don't seem to sell at that price.

I love this series of cubs photo pennants.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I bough this 3 cubs cub power pennant in white last year. Pretty tough to find it, esp in red. I'd value it at between $150 - 225. I've seen people asking £300 but they don't seem to sell at that price.

I love this series of cubs photo pennants.

These were made by ASCO and are very nice. Interestingly the Cubs are one team of a few for whom Trench never made a team picture pennant. Giants, Red Sox, Milwaukee Braves, Colts/Astros being the others (I think). Senators had one. Mets had one in ‘63 but it doesn’t seem like Trench.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

These were made by ASCO and are very nice. Interestingly the Cubs are one team of a few for whom Trench never made a team picture pennant. Giants, Red Sox, Milwaukee Braves, Colts/Astros being the others (I think). Senators had one. Mets had one in ‘63 but it doesn’t seem like Trench.

Greg is a veritable treasure trove of pennant knowledge

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by thetahat

These were made by ASCO and are very nice. Interestingly the Cubs are one team of a few for whom Trench never made a team picture pennant. Giants, Red Sox, Milwaukee Braves, Colts/Astros being the others (I think). Senators had one. Mets had one in ‘63 but it doesn’t seem like Trench.

Thanks Greg. That's great info about the Trench teams pennants.

I checked my Cubs power pennant and it's actually in red. I posted it here when I got it. (I need to think better of posting to the forum at 2am).

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...postcount=6165

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Thanks Greg. That's great info about the Trench teams pennants.

I checked my Cubs power pennant and it's actually in red. I posted it here when I got it. (I need to think better of posting to the forum at 2am).

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...postcount=6165

Yes that Cubs pennant was made in both red and white.

I actually thought the version with the entire team was harder to find, but I wouldn’t know that for certain. They are all pretty tough.

[thetahat]

From the Sliding Runner Pennant Co., Inc

Been looking for this for a long long long time, Mark has one and I have never seen one since. I know of five similar pennants from this company, with League Champions written inside a banner graphic:

1948 Braves
1948 Indians
1950 Phillies
1950 Yankees
???? Dodgers

Are there any others? ‘51 Giants? Undated Yankees?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

From the Sliding Runner Pennant Co., Inc

Been looking for this for a long long long time, Mark has one and I have never seen one since. I know of five similar pennants from this company, with League Champions written inside a banner graphic:

1948 Braves
1948 Indians
1950 Phillies
1950 Yankees
???? Dodgers

Are there any others? ‘51 Giants? Undated Yankees?

Never seen anything like that. Do you have pictures of the others?

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Never seen anything like that. Do you have pictures of the others?

I think these are the 1948 Indians, 1950 Phillies and the 1950 Yankees

If anyone has a photo of the Braves, I'd love to see it.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I think these are the 1948 Indians, 1950 Phillies and the 1950 Yankees

If anyone has a photo of the Braves, I'd love to see it.

Yes top two are mine. Here’s all four plus a Phillies in white (don’t know if others have different colored versions).

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by thetahat

From the Sliding Runner Pennant Co., Inc

Greg, with regards to the Sliding Runner Pennants....I understood that this Red Sox was by AdFlag. The Dodgers Sliding Runner looks to be the same. Are they all AdFlag.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Greg, with regards to the Sliding Runner Pennants....I understood that this Red Sox was by AdFlag. The Dodgers Sliding Runner looks to be the same. Are they all AdFlag.

Gary, that’s all the same company. They had a unique way of sewing together spines from two different … spools … or whatever you call it. Like if they come to the end of one they just start another mid pennant without breaking the stitch. Here’s a Phillies from the same company.

Now that you mentioned it … could these all be early Ad Flags? I strongly doubt it. They do share the same stitching style, sans tassels. But these are a tiny bit smaller (26-27”) and generally better quality than Ad Flag whose artists seemed plucked out of middle school art class and are often cut weird. The very old Ad Flags though were not as bad. I think the maroon Braves pictured below is an Ad Flag, in comparison to the blue one which seems to be from the Sliding Runner Co.

Kyle (Domer) might have a better feel for this.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Gary, that’s all the same company. They had a unique way of sewing together spines from two different … spools … or whatever you call it. Like if they come to the end of one they just start another mid pennant without breaking the stitch. Here’s a Phillies from the same company.

Now that you mentioned it … could these all be early Ad Flags? I strongly doubt it. They do share the same stitching style, sans tassels. But these are a tiny bit smaller (26-27”) and generally better quality than Ad Flag whose artists seemed plucked out of middle school art class and are often cut weird. The very old Ad Flags though were not as bad. I think the maroon Braves pictured below is an Ad Flag, in comparison to the blue one which seems to be from the Sliding Runner Co.

Kyle (Domer) might have a better feel for this.

It wasn't ADFLAG. Your "mystery maker" was, most probably, a company we've never once discussed (I think) on this thread. Which baffles my mind; because this maker made a lot of baseball and football pennants in the 1940s and 50s. So many, I was certain it was a maker we've studied extensively. Not so....

We were, however, correct about this mystery maker's location. We speculated that, based upon the volume of New York team pennants associated with their designs, they were based in New York City. This, it seems, we got right.

Your mystery maker behind such legendary pennant series as "the sliding runner" and "the Heisman" is, I believe, the Epstein Novelty Co., 130 Park Row, N.Y.C.

I'm gonna let that sink in for now ... then come back later with proof.

Stay tuned.

[ooo-ribay]

Get your popcorn ready!

[bocca001]

Every time one of those football runner pennants shows up on ebay, I click on the link to see if there is a label or stamp. As many of you know, that design was used for high school, college, and pro teams. There are so many, but never (from my experience) a label. After Kyle posted about Epstein, a quick Worthpoint search yielded one with a clear label. Really cool. They also have a pennant with a kicker design (although not the super common kicker design, which I think Kyle has attributed to Trench). This Fordham pennant has an Epstein label too.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

It wasn't ADFLAG. Your "mystery maker" was, most probably, a company we've never once discussed (I think) on this thread. Which baffles my mind; because this maker made a lot of baseball and football pennants in the 1940s and 50s. So many, I was certain it was a maker we've studied extensively. Not so....

We were, however, correct about this mystery maker's location. We speculated that, based upon the volume of New York team pennants associated with their designs, they were based in New York City. This, it seems, we got right.

Your mystery maker behind such legendary pennant series as "the sliding runner" and "the Heisman" is, I believe, the Epstein Novelty Co., 130 Park Row, N.Y.C.

I'm gonna let that sink in for now ... then come back later with proof.

Stay tuned.

YES!!! Mystery Solved!

“Dear Mr. Kotter, Please excuse Juan from school today. He’s busy making pennants. Signed, Epstein’s Mom.”

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

YES!!! Mystery Solved!

“Dear Mr. Kotter, Please excuse Juan from school today. He’s busy making pennants. Signed, Epstein’s Mom.”

I was thinking along the lines of former Senators' slugger, Mike Epstein. Perhaps he got into baseball because Dad already had the pennants covered.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I was thinking along the lines of former Senators' slugger, Mike Epstein. Perhaps he got into baseball because Dad already had the pennants covered.

Good one! Unfortunately he didn’t get the same love that Johnny Groth got from WGN.

Here’s one of my favorite Epsteins … (just wanted to see how that sounds)

[thetahat]

Now I can update the chapters of the book I imagine writing but never will, where pennants are grouped by maker and ordered in terms of my favorites:

Chapter 1: Trench. The gold standard
Chapter 2: WGN
Chapter 3: ASCO
Chapter 4: Epstein
Chapter 5: Keezer
Chapter 6: BF3 chocolate nuts or whatever
Chapter 7: Grommet Pennant Company of Somewhere in the Midwest
Chapter 8: Handmade pennants scribbled by kids on notebook paper
Chapter 9: Ad Flag

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Every time one of those football runner pennants shows up on ebay, I click on the link to see if there is a label or stamp. As many of you know, that design was used for high school, college, and pro teams. There are so many, but never (from my experience) a label. After Kyle posted about Epstein, a quick Worthpoint search yielded one with a clear label. Really cool. They also have a pennant with a kicker design (although not the super common kicker design, which I think Kyle has attributed to Trench). This Fordham pennant has an Epstein label too.

Great stuff Kyle. Thanks. I'll be busy updating my pennant catalog this weekend.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Great stuff Kyle. Thanks. I'll be busy updating my pennant catalog this weekend.

Kyle and Marc too.... Thanks to you both for solving yet another gonfalon mystery.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Kyle and Marc too.... Thanks to you both for solving yet another gonfalon mystery.

Not gonna lie…had to google “gonfalon.”

[Domer05]

Right. So, who saw it being Epstein Novelty Co.? Raise your hand!

I have seen their pennants/labels for years; but, always assumed they were a small novelty distributor serving the New York area that sold, among other products, felt pennants. But, they must've actually been a manufacturer of pennants.

Epstein Novelty Co. goes back to the 1910s, when they primarily made badges and buttons. You'll see WWI-themed buttons bearing their mark and address on the reverse. Did they make pennants back then, too? Unclear.

Seems to me they likely began making pennants in the 1930s. The earliest one I can date was from the 1941 Rose Bowl. Their hey day seems to be the late 1940s, early 1950s. As Mark mentioned, they were absolutely huge in terms of market share: pro baseball and football pennants; but also collegiate and high school pennants, too. Most impressively, their pennants were not limited to NYC teams by any stretch; they served the entire nation.

They were a lot like Trench in that respect.

They're quality, however, was nothing like Trench's. By the late 1940s they ceased using labels, tassels; and, their designs were always monochrome. Their artwork, moreover, was super generic. Nothing team-specific. Just the same generic player used over and over again.

Case in point: our "sliding runner" and "the Heisman" series. I never realized these were made by the same maker until I saw these two Brooklyn Dodger pennants. Note the less than perfect lettering; especially the "O" in "DODGERS". It's a bit ... rough. Kind of explains why they occasionally fused scraps of felt together to make a spine....

To really solve the mystery, however, we needed one of these pennants from either series to also have a label or maker's mark on them. Last month I came across the Columbia pennant mark highlighted earlier--with an Epstein tag. That sealed the deal for me. I'm only aware of one other from "the Heisman" series with an Epstein label; and it's this Cornell pennant, complete with tassels, just like the Columbia one.

Anyway, mystery solved.

[Domer05]

As Mark noted, Epstein Novelty Co. also produced a series featuring a punter kicking a football across the length of the pennant. I'm a little hesitant to call it a "series" because there are slight variations in these designs; but, overall, the concept is the same; and, many bear Epstein's label.

Let's name this the "the kicking punter" series

[bocca001]

The only way that I attempt to help Kyle is by filling up his inbox with email listings every time I see a pennant with a label or some kind of pennant brochure. But I never saw the Columbia pennant. That's all Kyle. I do remember sending him a pic of an Epstein label from a Texas A&M pennant a few years ago, but never thought it would be the maker of these series. So Epstein did make more generic college pennants too.

Kyle- I always thought that the left footed kicker pennants (below) were made by the same company as the runner pennant (now identified as Epstein). But I think you have attributed this style to Trench. I have posted two examples below, with one clearly being older than the other. The older one seems very similar to the Epstein runner pennants with respect to materials and feel. Just wondering how/why you have associated the left footed kicker design with Trench. It's probably too weird for Epstein to have two different kicker versions (given how steadfastly they stuck to the runner and slider designs).

The newer version of the kicker pennant has additional details in the background. I know that these exist for some NFL teams. I think Fballguy has a pic of a Raiders pennant with this image on his website. Santa Clara stopped playing major football in 1952, so the pennant is likely 1952 or earlier. I suppose the two kicker pennants could have been made by different companies, with the newer being a copy.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Right. So, who saw it being Epstein Novelty Co.? Raise your hand!

I have seen their pennants/labels for years; but, always assumed they were a small novelty distributor serving the New York area that sold, among other products, felt pennants. But, they must've actually been a manufacturer of pennants.

Epstein Novelty Co. goes back to the 1910s, when they primarily made badges and buttons. You'll see WWI-themed buttons bearing their mark and address on the reverse. Did they make pennants back then, too? Unclear.

Seems to me they likely began making pennants in the 1930s. The earliest one I can date was from the 1941 Rose Bowl. Their hey day seems to be the late 1940s, early 1950s. As Mark mentioned, they were absolutely huge in terms of market share: pro baseball and football pennants; but also collegiate and high school pennants, too. Most impressively, their pennants were not limited to NYC teams by any stretch; they served the entire nation.

They were a lot like Trench in that respect.

They're quality, however, was nothing like Trench's. By the late 1940s they ceased using labels, tassels; and, their designs were always monochrome. Their artwork, moreover, was super generic. Nothing team-specific. Just the same generic player used over and over again.

Case in point: our "sliding runner" and "the Heisman" series. I never realized these were made by the same maker until I saw these two Brooklyn Dodger pennants. Note the less than perfect lettering; especially the "O" in "DODGERS". It's a bit ... rough. Kind of explains why they occasionally fused scraps of felt together to make a spine....

To really solve the mystery, however, we needed one of these pennants from either series to also have a label or maker's mark on them. Last month I came across the Columbia pennant mark highlighted earlier--with an Epstein tag. That sealed the deal for me. I'm only aware of one other from "the Heisman" series with an Epstein label; and it's this Cornell pennant, complete with tassels, just like the Columbia one.

Anyway, mystery solved.

Great stuff, keep it coming!

Will disagree about the allegedly generic nature of their pennants. At least as far as baseball is concerned. By my count 13 of the 16 teams have alternatives with a team-specific logo. Also many football. They also gave us the highly underrated full body roster pennant …

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Great stuff, keep it coming!

Will disagree about the allegedly generic nature of their pennants. At least as far as baseball is concerned. By my count 13 of the 16 teams have alternatives with a team-specific logo. Also many football. They also gave us the highly underrated full body roster pennant …

So, this is "an Epstein"? How you you/we know that?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Every time one of those football runner pennants shows up on ebay, I click on the link to see if there is a label or stamp. As many of you know, that design was used for high school, college, and pro teams. There are so many, but never (from my experience) a label. After Kyle posted about Epstein, a quick Worthpoint search yielded one with a clear label. Really cool. They also have a pennant with a kicker design (although not the super common kicker design, which I think Kyle has attributed to Trench). This Fordham pennant has an Epstein label too.

I wonder if so few labels survived because they were sewn on so hap-hazardly, as on the Columbia pennant?

[ooo-ribay]

And, finally, this... My google skills are not up to par with some of you guys, but I found this from September 10, 1938. Check out "Football Novelties." Funny, too, that there's an ad for another maker - Amco.

[UKCardGuy]

Finding some info about Epstein Novelty

https://daytoninmanhattan.blogspot.c...65-bowery.html

After World War I druggist M. Diugasch, who dealt in “chemicals, colors and dyestuffs,” would be here for several years, sharing the first floor space with the Epstein Novelty Company. Epstein manufactured canes, among other wholesale items.

It also looks like the owner of Epstein Novelty got into some trouble from tax evasion in the 1950s.

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/case...313.11100.html

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

So, this is "an Epstein"? How you you/we know that?

See post 7172 above. Same exact blue jay. Pennant also same size, same stitching, same felt, and 7172 shows the unique split spine which Epsteins (LOL) are known for. Short of a pennant DNA test this is as conclusive as it gets.

Also Epstein:

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

See post 7172 above. Same exact blue jay. Pennant also same size, same stitching, same felt, and 7172 shows the unique split spine which Epsteins (LOL) are known for. Short of a pennant DNA test this is as conclusive as it gets.

Also Epstein:

I knew there was a reason! Now….please show me a close up of this “split spine” of which you speak.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I knew there was a reason! Now….please show me a close up of this “split spine” of which you speak.

What’s interesting is, the stitching is unbroken.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I knew there was a reason! Now….please show me a close up of this “split spine” of which you speak.

+1

Can’t imagine what that’s about, as it sounds more like a condition flaw.

[perezfan]

NM. Cell phone sucks

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by perezfan

+1

Can’t imagine what that’s about, as it sounds more like a condition flaw.

Greg posted as I was floundering and fat-fingering on my cell screen. So it IS a condition flaw. Epstein was apparently a cheapskate who underpaid his taxes and couldn’t even waste 2” of “spine material” to make it uninterrupted.

Shame on you, Epstein!

[thetahat]

delete

[perezfan]

So is this an “Epstein”?

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...forty-22850599

This one has had a recurring case of split-spine syndrome throughout the years.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Greg posted as I was floundering and fat-fingering on my cell screen. So it IS a condition flaw. Epstein was apparently a cheapskate who underpaid his taxes and couldn’t even waste 2” of “spine material” to make it uninterrupted.

Shame on you, Epstein!

Nah you’re being too hard on my man Epstein … he gave the world the Brooklyn Dodgers hitchhiker pennant! This one, too

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

So is this an “Epstein”?

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...forty-22850599

This one has had a recurring case of split-spine syndrome throughout the years.

Hmmm … this looks like WGN to me … based on the spine and thin tassels.

Here’s an Epstein Niner pennant … just sold