Hey, pennant guys

[bocca001]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Right on! I knew you'd have some answers for us from the football side of the house.

Is this Bills pennant full size? Marc's 1964 catalogue suggests that Keezer's/American Knitwear's offering was limited solely to 5" x 12" minis. (No mention of any other sizes.)

The Oilers I have above is full size, and identical in design to the 5 x 12. As rare as the minis are, the full size ones seem even more rare. I think I've seen the Oilers and the Packers. Fballguy has a pic of a packers fan with one at a Super Bowl. And I think Mark has/had the Steelers. That's all I've seen.

I'd think that the Bills above is older, and not part of the same series. It does not match style wise.

Edited: So, I just found a copy of the Bills mini pennant on Worthpoint. See below. And it has an American Knitwear stamp. So, I guess that answers that for the mini pennants (and their large counterparts). Not sure about Fballguy's Bills pennant.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Also found the white sox

That's a really nice pennant. I love the look of it.

Are those Baseball Keezer pennants mini pennants like the football or full size?

[ooo-ribay]

JR has a different Keezer Yankees on ebay than the one shown in Erik’s collage. It’s rough.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Right on! I knew you'd have some answers for us from the football side of the house.

Is this Bills pennant full size? Marc's 1964 catalogue suggests that Keezer's/American Knitwear's offering was limited solely to 5" x 12" minis. (No mention of any other sizes.)

Yes...Full size. I can send exact measurements and a pic of the stamp when I get home this weekend. I didn't compare the stamp to baseball Keezers I have, but at first glance it looks just like the baseball stamp. Not sure if the stamp evolved over the years.

Marc...Your large Oilers and my Bills have the same stiff non-"felt" tassels.

[bocca001]

That strange tassel material (and sometimes spines) seems to suggest that they came from the same era, probably early 1960s.

Gary- the baseball Keezer ones I have been posting (e.g., White Sox) are full size.

[bocca001]

These are all stamped American Knitwear. All mini pennants.

[Domer05]

Wow, nice find Marc. Who knew all you had to do was search for "American Knitwear" (rather than Keezer) pennants?

[Domer05]

That Pirate mini is different from the normal, full size Pirate we always associated with Keezer. Come to think of it, it seems awfully consistent with Marc's SF Giants pennant, bearing no mark, but believed to be by Keezer/American Knitwear.

Both are 5" x 12".

Doesn't this suggest there's a whole set of baseball 5" x 12" minis by Keezer/American Knitwear with new artwork, not seen on older full size Keezers?

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Erik- in my opinion, the football Keezer pennants are similar to this Astros pennant (which also has no Keezer stamp). Same materials and layout.

I've also wondered about this very rare Giants mini pennant being Keezer. It shares some features of these others, but is not exactly the same.

I agree - I think the Astros and Oilers may be from the same manufacturer. They look similar to me. I also wonder if the California angels pennant c. late 1965 or c. 1966 is from the same set? In my opinion it could be.

Originally, I didn’t think Rob’s Bills was from the same set since it had no name beneath the mascot, but the LA angels pennant below doesn’t have the team name either, but it is clearly of the same design as the California version. So it could be an earlier version (pre 64 brochure)?

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by Domer05

That Pirate mini is different from the normal, full size Pirate we always associated with Keezer. Come to think of it, it seems awfully consistent with Marc's SF Giants pennant, bearing no mark, but believed to be by Keezer/American Knitwear.

Both are 5" x 12".

Doesn't this suggest there's a whole set of baseball 5" x 12" minis by Keezer/American Knitwear with new artwork, not seen on older full size Keezers?

Those two absolutely could be from the same set!

[ooo-ribay]

Here's another definite Keezer. It's a shame the vast majority of these football Keezers are mini's.

[rlevy]

Here are a couple photos of my Jackie Robinson 1953-54 barnstorming pennant on display at the Jackie Robinson Museum in NYC. It's displayed right below a 1997 50th anniversary pennant, and right next to a 1949 Welcome Dodgers banner that is high up on my wish list. I haven't made it to see the museum in person yet, buy hopefully will soon. I know several MLB teams have toured the museum when they traveled to NY since it opened.

Rick

1953 Jackie Robinson all-star displayed at museum 2 resized.jpg1953 Jackie Robinson all-star displayed at museum resized.jpg

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by rlevy

Here are a couple photos of my Jackie Robinson 1953-54 barnstorming pennant on display at the Jackie Robinson Museum in NYC. It's displayed right below a 1997 50th anniversary pennant, and right next to a 1949 Welcome Dodgers banner that is high up on my wish list. I haven't made it to see the museum in person yet, buy hopefully will soon. I know several MLB teams have toured the museum when they traveled to NY since it opened.

Rick

Attachment 540939Attachment 540940

That’s awesome. What a great pennant and the condition is spectacular. Any idea if there is UV protection on that glass or the holder? I only ask because those pennants fade so easily, I can’t imagine there is a more pristine version of that in existence.

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by thetahat

That’s awesome. What a great pennant and the condition is spectacular. Any idea if there is UV protection on that glass or the holder? I only ask because those pennants fade so easily, I can’t imagine there is a more pristine version of that in existence.

Yes, it’s protected. I would be surprised if any newly constructed major museum didn’t use UV glass these days. I’ve been loaning items to museums for a while now and never had an issue. On the other hand, I have a friend who loaned a baseball glove to the Baseball HOF for 5 years, and the markings on the glove were certainly faded when it was returned. He thought it was displayed in UV glass, but who knows for sure.

Rick

[Duluth Eskimo]

Great stuff Rick. I personally use all LED lights as well. You’re a lot braver than I loaning your stuff out. It’s always great to share, but few people treat our items like we would treat them. I would be worried to no end.

[murphusa]

The. Choices for a World Series Pennant in Philly are weak

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by murphusa

The. Choices for a World Series Pennant in Philly are weak

How much do those depreciate once you take them off the rack? 100%?

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Great stuff Rick. I personally use all LED lights as well. You’re a lot braver than I loaning your stuff out. It’s always great to share, but few people treat our items like we would treat them. I would be worried to no end.

Jason, yeah, I do worry the whole time they are gone that they will return just as they left. I try to deal with major museums only in the hopes they know what they are doing. I have turned down requests when I don't know the organization very well. My biggest concern was when I lent items to Dodger Stadium for their pop-up museum since I knew they used florescent lights and there were a lot of windows. But all of my exhibits had UV filtering acrylic to protect them, and the exhibit was only for a couple of months. I enjoy sharing items from my collection, and I guess that outweighs my concerns for the slight risk they will be damaged in some manner.

Rick

[Duluth Eskimo]

Yeah, I enjoy sharing stuff too. Wish caretakers and historians cared as much as we do.

[perezfan]

Rick, you’re a better man than I.

I won’t even leave a valued piece with a professional framer, in the fear they’ll “f” something up. I must have at least 300 framed pieces, and have done every single one myself.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Same here Mark.

[thetahat]

Not. Vintage. (Late 70s repro)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/26597641274...-uJYQ&LH_BIN=1

[thetahat]

The mini-version of the pennant pictured below.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12558362571...Q&LH_Auction=1

An ugly pennant, for sure. I assumed Ad Flag until recently noticing that the lettering is distinctly WGN.

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by thetahat

The mini-version of the pennant pictured below.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12558362571...Q&LH_Auction=1

An ugly pennant, for sure. I assumed Ad Flag until recently noticing that the lettering is distinctly WGN.

Disagree, Greg. I think that’s beautiful! You own the full sized version?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Not. Vintage. (Late 70s repro)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/26597641274...-uJYQ&LH_BIN=1

That’s Erik’s….

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

That’s Erik’s….

Hmmm, I think Greg’s correct. I am selling about 20 vintage Angels pennants on eBay (a few sold) And his keen eye recognized this one, but the others are all vintage. I’ll adjust the listing. Thx for bringing it up!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by erikc21

Hmmm, I think Greg’s correct. I am selling about 20 vintage Angels pennants on eBay (a few sold) And his keen eye recognized this one, but the others are all vintage. I’ll adjust the listing. Thx for bringing it up!

Hey Erik! Yikes … Didn’t know that was you! That’s a nice batch of Angels pennants you have …

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by erikc21

Disagree, Greg. I think that’s beautiful! You own the full sized version?

Yes I got it about 7-8 years ago. The graphic is horrifying. If I hung this in my room as a kid I’d probably have nightmares.

[perezfan]

Here's a seller with some good prices...... if you could only move that pesky decimal point to the left, that is...

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr...ates%20pennant

[mrreality68]

This is an amazing thread and with over 1.4 million views. Wow

Just wondering is this one of the longest and most viewed threads?

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Here's a seller with some good prices...... if you could only move that pesky decimal point to the left, that is...

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr...ates%20pennant

I offered to sell him all my late-80s helmet pennants for $50 a piece. That way he could double or triple his money, but no response. If I could get his Browns prices, I'd be posting from an over the water bungalow in Bora Bora full time.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr...owns%20pennant

The funny thing is, one of his best pennants, the Philadelphia Athletics, isn't too unreasonably priced (by his standards). I'm surprised he didn't go with 4 digits.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Here's a seller with some good prices...... if you could only move that pesky decimal point to the left, that is...

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr...ates%20pennant

This one is my favorite. Be sure to read the description.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16333780120...fiOYQ&LH_BIN=1

I offered him $60, he countered with $2,850. Kinda like a reverse Pawn Stars haggle!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

This one is my favorite. Be sure to read the description.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16333780120...fiOYQ&LH_BIN=1

I offered him $60, he countered with $2,850. Kinda like a reverse Pawn Stars haggle!

Thanks for the much needed laugh. I got mine last year for $69 and free shipping. Guess that means mine wasn't a Salesman's Sample.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

This is an amazing thread and with over 1.4 million views. Wow

Just wondering is this one of the longest and most viewed threads?

Yes, it is the most viewed and longest on net54 (by far). Pretty amazing that the biggest thread resides on the Memorabilia side. I think that the distant #2 is the "What's Your Monster Number" thread on the Card side.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

This one is my favorite. Be sure to read the description.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16333780120...fiOYQ&LH_BIN=1

Notwithstanding that crazy price ... he is correct that his pennant is a (more rare?) variant.

I don't know about the "salesman's sample" logic; but there are some slight differences between the two that make me shake my head, e.g., stitching in the balls, detail in the grandstands, and the presence of the the flag at the tail-end.

I think the better explanation is the maker wanted to print this in white ink on red felt; but, because white ink is more viscous than darker colors, had to use a screen with a lower mesh count and a design with slightly less detail...? I can't come up with any other reason for such a slight variation.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Notwithstanding that crazy price ... he is correct that his pennant is a (more rare?) variant.

I don't know about the "salesman's sample" logic; but there are some slight differences between the two that make me shake my head, e.g., stitching in the balls, detail in the grandstands, and the presence of the the flag at the tail-end.

I think the better explanation is the maker wanted to print this in white ink on red felt; but, because white ink is more viscous than darker colors, had to use a screen with a lower mesh count and a design with slightly less detail...? I can't come up with any other reason for such a slight variation.

Great analysis, Kyle. Even though yellow on black makes no sense for the Red Sox, it is a much more attractive pennant. Maybe if the red one wasn’t faded…

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Notwithstanding that crazy price ... he is correct that his pennant is a (more rare?) variant.

I don't know about the "salesman's sample" logic; but there are some slight differences between the two that make me shake my head, e.g., stitching in the balls, detail in the grandstands, and the presence of the the flag at the tail-end.

I think the better explanation is the maker wanted to print this in white ink on red felt; but, because white ink is more viscous than darker colors, had to use a screen with a lower mesh count and a design with slightly less detail...? I can't come up with any other reason for such a slight variation.

Here’s mine, which is an identical copy of the red one in your pic. The one on eBay seems to be a late 40s WGN, based on the spine and tassels. The little flag by the tip appears on other WGNs, there are Tigers pennants with the year written inside. The red versions possibly came later and were maybe copied by another company. The spine, tassels, and stitching are all different from typical WGN pennants.

In light of these findings I’m willing to up my offer … I think $80 is about right.

[aelefson]

I recently acquired the mid 1970s pennants pictured below. Has anyone seen the 1974 Nets pennant before? In my limited online search attempts, I found ones with no date and ones with a crown, but none with a date and no crown. Unfortunately, mine is missing the tip and has some dirt showing.

Alan

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by aelefson

I recently acquired the mid 1970s pennants pictured below. Has anyone seen the 1974 Nets pennant before? In my limited online search attempts, I found ones with no date and ones with a crown, but none with a date and no crown. Unfortunately, mine is missing the tip and has some dirt showing.

Alan

Alan I don’t collect hockey or basketball but I do notice them while looking for baseball. I can’t say I’ve ever seen that Nets pennant. Pretty cool!

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

The little flag by the tip appears on other WGNs, there are Tigers pennants with the year written inside.

I'm not sure WGN made this "ball thru the name" pennant series; but, you're correct about the little flag on the tail-end: it was used on other pennants, like this ca. 1947 Jackie Robinson pennant....

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I'm not sure WGN made this "ball thru the name" pennant series; but, you're correct about the little flag on the tail-end: it was used on other pennants, like this ca. 1947 Jackie Robinson pennant....

I think for sure the Red Sox and Jackie pennant are the same maker, the wide spine, stitching, thin tassels are all identical. One of a few reasons why I think they are WGN: the G in Dodgers is a unique style common to known WGNs. Also, the little flag towards the tip can be found on the Larry Doby pennant; that and the Satchel Paige have the common WGN font. I’m guessing that the company had a special run for early Black players, I think there’s one for Luke Easter, too.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Notwithstanding that crazy price ... he is correct that his pennant is a (more rare?) variant.

I don't know about the "salesman's sample" logic; but there are some slight differences between the two that make me shake my head, e.g., stitching in the balls, detail in the grandstands, and the presence of the the flag at the tail-end.

I think the better explanation is the maker wanted to print this in white ink on red felt; but, because white ink is more viscous than darker colors, had to use a screen with a lower mesh count and a design with slightly less detail...? I can't come up with any other reason for such a slight variation.

Speaking of pennants with minor variances, here's another conundrum for you...

The more common Bum has fine whiskers... let's say about 2 days of growth.

The far rarer version has fewer/courser whiskers, looking like about 4 days of growth.

Other differences include the Cigar Ash, the Hat Brim detail, and the way the hair/sideburn covers his ear. I've always been intrigued by this and own 2 examples of each, though I'd estimate the "smaller whiskers" version outnumbers the other by about 8 to 1. Yet another hobby mystery!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Speaking of pennants with minor variances, here's another conundrum for you...

The more common Bum has fine whiskers... let's say about 2 days of growth.

The far rarer version has fewer/courser whiskers, looking like about 4 days of growth.

Other differences include the Cigar Ash, the Hat Brim detail, and the way the hair/sideburn covers his ear. I've always been intrigued by this and own 2 examples of each, though I'd estimate the "smaller whiskers" version outnumbers the other by about 8 to 1. Yet another hobby mystery!

Unsolved Pennant Mysteries, Season 1, Episode 1

Here’s the same bum, in color and with a pimple on his schnoz. Not Trench and possibly not the same company as the other bums you pictured.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Speaking of pennants with minor variances, here's another conundrum for you...

The more common Bum has fine whiskers... let's say about 2 days of growth.

The far rarer version has fewer/courser whiskers, looking like about 4 days of growth.

!

Mark, I think these variations you've noted may have been unintentional. I think they may have been caused by the normal inconsistencies to be expected during the screen printing process--not necessarily something the graphic artist intended.

As we know, "quality control" was kind of absent when these pennants were being cranked out. Differences in screen mesh counts can alter the level of detail seen in the final product ... changes in humidity will affect the drying process ... lighter colored inks perform differently than darker ones. It's not always possible to make perfect copies, one after the next.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Also, the little flag towards the tip can be found on the Larry Doby pennant; that and the Satchel Paige have the common WGN font. I’m guessing that the company had a special run for early Black players, I think there’s one for Luke Easter, too.

Yup. These do all appear to be by the same maker....

[Domer05]

More specimens from the "ball thru the name" series, manufactured by the same maker as the Robinson, Paige, and Doby pennants....

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Mark, I think these variations you've noted may have been unintentional. I think they may have been caused by the normal inconsistencies to be expected during the screen printing process--not necessarily something the graphic artist intended.

As we know, "quality control" was kind of absent when these pennants were being cranked out. Differences in screen mesh counts can alter the level of detail seen in the final product ... changes in humidity will affect the drying process ... lighter colored inks perform differently than darker ones. It's not always possible to make perfect copies, one after the next.

I think it's a different template. Especially when you look at the Bum's hat brim and hair covering the ear. Too much variance to be a simple inconsistency. Also, there is no "inbetween" exemplar.

And look at the difference in lines between his eyes and eyebrows, all of which are all missing on the second example. These are two distinctively different Bum variations.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

More specimens from the "ball thru the name" series, manufactured by the same maker as the Robinson, Paige, and Doby pennants....

Agreed. And now here’s why I think they are all WGN. It’s the identical freestyle font. Zoom in on Satchel. Now look at how ‘Wrigley Field’ is written on a known WGN. Same dude. A couple more examples are included that show the same writing style in the roster, along with the same structure (identical spine, tassels).

[Domer05]

Well, if WGN made this "ball thru the name" series, then that would mean they made this ca. 1958 Los Angeles Dodgers pennant as well....

...which looks nothing like WGN's known pennants from the late 1950s. This one's monochrome and features two pairs of tassels. By the late 1950s, WGN's pennants had no tassels; and, they were experimenting with polychromatic designs featuring a Day Glo color palette.

It's a close call; and I can see the resemblance to WGN; but, I think this series may just be by another maker.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Well, if WGN made this "ball thru the name" series, then that would mean they made this ca. 1958 Los Angeles Dodgers pennant as well....

I'm not so sure about this statement. The graphics on the two monochrome pennants seem like they're a different style/different artist. The graphics for the ball through the name series have more intricate graphics. The 2 monochrome Dodgers pennants seem to be lower quality graphics.

I agree with Greg that the other Ball through the Name pennants look like WGN but the 2 Dodgers pennants are a different manufacturer.