Let's welcome Charlie Barokas to the Billion Dollar Fraud!

[drcy]

Laurel: "Three million dollars! Is that as much as a thousand?"
Hardy: "Why, man alive! It's TWICE as much!"

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

An EX tobacco card used to be the prize of a collection.

It still is over an 8 or 9 that you know has been altered to get in that slab.

[BeanTown]

Not to mention, how many times an altered card gets submitted for grading. With the quest for PSAs coveted blessing, the pop of graded cards is going through the roof!

[perezfan]

Regarding the term "Billion Dollar Fraud"... there is more to it than just the altered cards themselves. Sure the cards alone could exceed a billion some day, if only 1 - 2% of the fraud has been uncovered to date. It is very difficult to research and expose these cards, since eBay hides identities and thus protects criminals. So God only knows how many more have yet to be revealed.

That said, there are other factors that contribute to the $1 Billion number...

Massive cumulative Ebay fees taken in on the altered cards
Buyers and Sellers commissions received by auction houses
PSA fees for grading and continually re-grading altered cards

So the tangential beneficiaries in the scam are eBay, auction houses, dealers and especially the profit-based "turn a blind eye" TPGs. All of these beneficiaries are in addition to the owners of these tainted cards. With all of this related "income" factored in, I am confident it will eventually exceed the Billion Dollar mark.

That is, unless the FBI can put a stop to it, make the appropriate arrests, and shut down the guilty parties. Since the bulk of collectors don't seen to even know or care, Law Enforcement seems to be our only hope to stop short of the Billion.

[Republicaninmass]

Dont forget PSA and their "inner circle" of passing these cards.


Cu has a market cap of 10 billion.

A 10 billion dollar fraud, say it with me now....

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Regarding the term "Billion Dollar Fraud"... there is more to it than just the altered cards themselves. Sure the cards alone could exceed a billion some day, if only 1 - 2% of the fraud has been uncovered to date. It is very difficult to research and expose these cards, since eBay hides identities and thus protects criminals. So God only knows how many more have yet to be revealed.

That said, there are other factors that contribute to the $1 Billion number...

Massive cumulative Ebay fees taken in on the altered cards
Buyers and Sellers commissions received by auction houses
PSA fees for grading and continually re-grading altered cards

So the tangential beneficiaries in the scam are eBay, auction houses, dealers and especially the profit-based "turn a blind eye" TPGs. All of these beneficiaries are in addition to the owners of these tainted cards. With all of this related "income" factored in, I am confident it will eventually exceed the Billion Dollar mark.

That is, unless the FBI can put a stop to it, make the appropriate arrests, and shut down the guilty parties. Since the bulk of collectors don't seen to even know or care, Law Enforcement seems to be our only hope to stop short of the Billion.

Agee Mark with all of this PLUS since the end of 2013 I can’t explain these stupid numbers by certain auctions I would Say Manipulation Of Sales....how many were allegedly shilled and or not paid for and re listed ??

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Dont forget PSA and their "inner circle" of passing these cards.


Cu has a market cap of 10 billion.

A 10 billion dollar fraud, say it with me now....

Thanks for making me grin during this difficult time Ted.
Let's just say Multi-Billion up to 10 bil.

Hard to even try and make a joke today after the Kobe news.

[japhi]

Personally I think the 1B number is ridiculous. PSA is only a 75mm company, and more then half of that from coins. Cards, I think 30mm or so. I suspect BGS is much smaller.

It is however hard to swag this thing, but what we know is BO has found 5-10MM in value lift between all sports. And they only have access to a minuscule amount of data - only a fraction of only sales can be worked and most raw, card show, private, set, lot, etc cards are untraceable.

So this thing is clearly wide ranging and the number is big. But the guys hyperventilating about 1b need to chill out a bit or show how the math works on that number.

[Flintboy]

At the end of the day it shouldn’t matter if it’s $100 or 1 billion dollars in fraud. It’s criminally, morally, and ethically wrong.

[drcy]

One trillion

[Tabe]

Start with the Gretzky Wagner card - that card has been sold and re-sold multiple times for millions of dollars. That's a pretty good head start towards a billion.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Start with the Gretzky Wagner card - that card has been sold and re-sold multiple times for millions of dollars. That's a pretty good head start towards a billion.

The folks who bought that card then sold it for a profit didn't suffer any loss from the trim job.

When prices for doctored cards with high grades are increasing, the people who bought and sold them, generally, are not suffering financial loss. The full impact of the fraud won't be felt unless/until the value of the doctored/overgraded cards collapse.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by japhi

Personally I think the 1B number is ridiculous. PSA is only a 75mm company, and more then half of that from coins. Cards, I think 30mm or so. I suspect BGS is much smaller.

It is however hard to swag this thing, but what we know is BO has found 5-10MM in value lift between all sports. And they only have access to a minuscule amount of data - only a fraction of only sales can be worked and most raw, card show, private, set, lot, etc cards are untraceable.

So this thing is clearly wide ranging and the number is big. But the guys hyperventilating about 1b need to chill out a bit or show how the math works on that number.

????

First, they've graded or authenticated over 30 million pieces. If it's an average price of $20 per that's $600 million.

Second, what on earth does that have to do with the dollar value of the scandal? If they grade a card that should be worth $500,000 and give it a grade that results in it being worth $10 million, do you think the fraud is just the cost of grading???!!!

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The folks who bought that card then sold it for a profit didn't suffer any loss from the trim job.

When prices for doctored cards with high grades are increasing, the people who bought and sold them, generally, are not suffering financial loss. The full impact of the fraud won't be felt unless/until the value of the doctored/overgraded cards collapse.

Really good point and a different angle to consider.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

????

First, they've graded or authenticated over 30 million pieces. If it's an average price of $20 per that's $600 million.

Second, what on earth does that have to do with the dollar value of the scandal? If they grade a card that should be worth $500,000 and give it a grade that results in it being worth $10 million, do you think the fraud is just the cost of grading???!!!

Relax, it was just one data point. 30mm per annum is their aprox gross rev from card grading. PWCC is maybe a 5mm company. The hobby is not as big as some of you believe.

But, if you have the math on 1b in fraud lets see it. That number is being thrown around as fact. I think folks are over estimating the size

And in case anyone is confused I think this thing is big, real big. I won’t be submitting or collecting graded cards, it’s very clearly a racket that skews towards large submitters and dirt bags. I just don’t think it’s helpful to throw around numbers like 1b or hyper ventilate like Chuck does every day here.

[luciobar1980]

I just look at all this as more reason to stick to nicely presenting mid-grade cards.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

A 1965 Topps Koufax is not a waterfront card and nor is a 1968 Willie Mays card.

If you don't know what a waterfront card is, then search some past threads on this site where collectors discuss them.

The only waterfront card I remember seeing that was trimmed was a 1958 Topps Bobby Hull rookie. I remember the 1952 Topps Mantle as well, but I don't believe that one was trimmed. I think the corners got pressed down or something like that. And then there was that Cracker Jack Joe Jackson which was soaked - that was a bad one too. Otherwise, I have no interest in reading through thousands of pages discussing crappy cards.

Well, thank goodness the elitists don't have to worry about their cards being altered

Maybe there's another forum that keeps us riff raff out? Like maybe over at CU?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

I just look at all this as more reason to stick to nicely presenting mid-grade cards.

You mean like 3's that have been doctored into 5's?

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

You mean like 3's that have been doctored into 5's?

I think it's more easier to turn a 6 into an 8 compared to turning a 3 into a 5. Most 3s out there are crap - corner wear, creasing, etc. Hard to turn that into a 5.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by midmo

There are tons of them. I just did a quick browse of one of the blowout threads...

Is that all you could come up with in a short time? Sheeesh.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Reading through the Blowout link, the person of topic actually posted on Net54 regarding his position (or better put: denials) on trimming.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...6&postcount=11

[Exhibitman]

What would PSA's CEO say?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by buymycards

I have been collecting for a long time and I have never heard the term "waterfront" in regard to sports cards.

That term was used on net54 years ago..

[Robbie]

When I think back on the waterfront cards I let get away over the years, all I can say is...

I coulda' had class. I coulda' been a contender. I could've been somebody... instead of a bum, which is what I am – let's face it.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The folks who bought that card then sold it for a profit didn't suffer any loss from the trim job.

When prices for doctored cards with high grades are increasing, the people who bought and sold them, generally, are not suffering financial loss. The full impact of the fraud won't be felt unless/until the value of the doctored/overgraded cards collapse.

A fair point. Is victimless fraud still fraud? I would say yes.

At the very least, the current owner is a victim even if he doesn't consider himself such.

[Touch'EmAll]

Pardon me, but PSA - what does the "P" stand for ?

[Republicaninmass]

Preferential

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Pardon me, but PSA - what does the "P" stand for ?

Phraudulent.

[the 'stache]

Before I go throw up, anybody want to end this craziness, and just give us a working definition of "waterfront"? I've been here a while, and have never heard of the term, either. And a quick search of the term on Google and our forum yields several results, but no definition. Or, is this an ongoing inside joke, like Snipe hunting?

It seems, on first glance, to refer to ultra in demand cards in highest condition. That would make sense, as oceanfront property is typically the creme de la creme. Just looking back at the last 50 some years, this would include the Joe Namath '65 Topps rookie, a '79 Wayne Gretzky rookie (the Canadian Oh-Pee-Chee issue), the '86 Fleer Michael Jordan, whatever the most in demand rookie card for Tom Brady would be-maybe the 2000 Playoff Contenders with the on card certified auto. That's one I saw a lot when I started prospecting. What else? The Jeter '93 Upper Deck SP foil card in prime condition goes for a ridiculous amount. I expect the 2009 Mike Trout Bowman Chrome certified auto moves into that category, eventually. I feel like such an idiot having sold mine, but medical bills don't allow one to be sentimental. Going back a bit further, the '52 Topps Mantle and Mays obviously. '54 Topps rookie for Aaron, '55 for Clemente. The '48 Leaf Jackie Robinson rookie. '51 Parkhurst Gordie Howe, whatever Bobby Orr's rookie might be. '58 Topps Jim Brown, '57 Topps Starr and Unitas.

What else?

If we go back to the era(s) we all love and collect, we're looking at the E90-1 American Caramel Shoeless Joe Jackson, the Wagner T206, the '33 Goudey Lajoie, the '39 Play Ball Ted Williams. Ruth's rookie (I forget, the '16 Famous & Barr?), various Cobb T206 cards, portraits as well as on/off shoulder varieties, the Walter Johnson portrait, '35 National Chicle Nagurski, Ruth and Gehrig Goudey cards, the Cracker Jack issues of Christy Matthewson, Johnson, Jackson-especially the '14 releases which are ultra condition sensitive.

Somebody just clarify for us, please.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Pardon me, but PSA - what does the "P" stand for ?

Professional Sports Authenticator.

[egbeachley]

You are not the only one who hasn’t heard the term waterfront. But then again I d only been collecting for 1/2 my life and on this Board for over 10 years.

It may have to do with soaking a card. But context seems off. Certainly not a commonly used term.

[drcy]

Just remember that for some waterfront = van down by the river

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Before I go throw up, anybody want to end this craziness, and just give us a working definition of "waterfront"? I've been here a while, and have never heard of the term, either. And a quick search of the term on Google and our forum yields several results, but no definition. Or, is this an ongoing inside joke, like Snipe hunting?

.

What else?


Somebody just clarify for us, please.

I would think there are waterfront and there are waterfront. The ruth rookie etc is not something most of the community can afford or even afford to invest in but i i think a 10k card many more can, i would define a waterfront card as a card many people have had in their collection or a chance to get at one time or another....i know i never had a chance to get an T206 wagner but i did on some goudey ruth's etc.

.this was a quote i had about the green cobb being a waterfront card..



Default PWCC green cobb psa 5.5 going through the roof
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...4AAOSw9mFWMm5z

bidding over $14,000 which has to be way over SMR... when I had two PSA 4s nicely centered Green cobbs..all I would hear about is SMR this and SMR that....

the waterfront properties really taking off...!

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Tabe

A fair point. Is victimless fraud still fraud? I would say yes.

At the very least, the current owner is a victim even if he doesn't consider himself such.

If someone buys a doctored card as an investment, doesn't know it is doctored, and sells it for a tidy profit, he/she is not a victim. If the person who buys it is happy with the card and also sells it for a profit, they are not a victim. There is definitely potential for some future owner of the card to become a victim, but that won't occur unless and until the doctoring of that card (asset) causes its market value to drop.

If I buy a nice looking T205 that looks a little narrow and may be trimmed, but I am happy with the card at the price I pay for it, I am also not a victim. This has, in fact, happened to me fairly recently.

The victimization of America................ To be a victim one must actually have something negative happen to them.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If someone buys a doctored card as an investment, doesn't know it is doctored, and sells it for a tidy profit, he/she is not a victim. If the person who buys it is happy with the card and also sells it for a profit, they are not a victim. There is definitely potential for some future owner of the card to become a victim, but that won't occur unless and until the doctoring of that card (asset) causes its market value to drop.

If I buy a nice looking T205 that looks a little narrow and may be trimmed, but I am happy with the card at the price I pay for it, I am also not a victim. This has, in fact, happened to me fairly recently.

The victimization of America................ To be a victim one must actually have something negative happen to them.

Yet even in this example the profit made is almost certainly going to be less than what it would have been without the fraud being exposed.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Yet even in this example the profit made is almost certainly going to be less than what it would have been without the fraud being exposed.

I'll bet in the vast majority of cases, the fraud has not been exposed to the people buying these cards.

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by drcy

Just remember that for some waterfront = van down by the river

You’re going to be eating a steady diet of government cheese and living in a VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!!!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by drcy

Just remember that for some waterfront = van down by the river

That is hilarious.

Originally Posted by iowadoc77

You’re going to be eating a steady diet of government cheese and living in a VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!!!

Government cheese used to be good, now it is that horrible fake stuff.

[Leon]

One time I actually bought imitation fake cheese. Just don't do it. All I know is; it was a yellowish substance.

Originally Posted by bnorth

That is hilarious.

Government cheese used to be good, now it is that horrible fake stuff.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I'll bet in the vast majority of cases, the fraud has not been exposed to the people buying these cards.

True, but a drop in overall pricing would likely affect comparable sales.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If someone buys a doctored card as an investment, doesn't know it is doctored, and sells it for a tidy profit, he/she is not a victim. If the person who buys it is happy with the card and also sells it for a profit, they are not a victim. There is definitely potential for some future owner of the card to become a victim, but that won't occur unless and until the doctoring of that card (asset) causes its market value to drop.

If I buy a nice looking T205 that looks a little narrow and may be trimmed, but I am happy with the card at the price I pay for it, I am also not a victim. This has, in fact, happened to me fairly recently.

The victimization of America................ To be a victim one must actually have something negative happen to them.

To me this is a ridiculous way of looking at it.
As long as everyone profits off something that isn't as it's claimed, it's ok?

So by extension if I get a counterfeit 20, and pass it along that's ok too.
If I paint some rocks with gold paint, and say they're gold nuggets it's fine as long as the buyer can find another sucker?

Rubbish!

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The folks who bought that card then sold it for a profit didn't suffer any loss from the trim job.

How can you know that they didn't lose out on more profit? Every educated collector knows the "trim" story.

Just because it was sold for a profit doesn't mean they "didn't suffer any loss from the trim job".

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Leon

One time I actually bought imitation fake cheese. Just don't do it. All I know is; it was a yellowish substance.

Does "imitation fake cheese" mean it's actually real cheese?

[Baseball Bob]

Fascinating! Back in 2015, this guy tossed a bunch of 1958 Topps out on eBay that were freshly PSA graded and all were 8 or better. Close inspection of the cards revealed that 90% of them had flaws that would in my humble opinon have made them at best 7s or even lower. I wrote they guy a note and told him I thought he was peddling a bunch of PSA overgrades and he sent me back a berating note.
It all makes so much more sense now......!!

[BeanTown]

Just looked at his current eBay store. Has 100 percent feedback and many high end PSA graded items.


https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?ssPa...herock&_sop=16

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Just looked at his current eBay store. Has 100 percent feedback and many high end PSA graded items.


https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?ssPa...herock&_sop=16

eBay feedback means absolutely nothing.

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by bnorth

eBay feedback means absolutely nothing.

Agreed +1

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I would think there are waterfront and there are waterfront. The ruth rookie etc is not something most of the community can afford or even afford to invest in but i i think a 10k card many more can, i would define a waterfront card as a card many people have had in their collection or a chance to get at one time or another....i know i never had a chance to get an T206 wagner but i did on some goudey ruth's etc.

.this was a quote i had about the green cobb being a waterfront card..



Default PWCC green cobb psa 5.5 going through the roof
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...4AAOSw9mFWMm5z

bidding over $14,000 which has to be way over SMR... when I had two PSA 4s nicely centered Green cobbs..all I would hear about is SMR this and SMR that....

the waterfront properties really taking off...!

Always got an answer don't you?
...

[Johnny630]

Did anyone see this new one Discovered On Blowout
BODA has done amazing forensics work

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1349101

Will REA have to Buy Back and Sue PSA for Damages or will Newport Beach Buy Back? Or Make The Consignor Buy it Back

PSA is TEFLON WATCH THEM GET AWAY LAUGHING ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by steve B

To me this is a ridiculous way of looking at it.
As long as everyone profits off something that isn't as it's claimed, it's ok?

So by extension if I get a counterfeit 20, and pass it along that's ok too.
If I paint some rocks with gold paint, and say they're gold nuggets it's fine as long as the buyer can find another sucker?

Rubbish!

No, fraud isn't okay. I didn't say it was (obviously.)