I totally forgot PWCC had an auction ending tonight

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Steve D

If that were the case (rejecting cards that are "too clean"), the Black Swamp find, for one, would have never been graded.

Steve

BSF cards were stored in paper practically from the time they were made and still did not have SNOW WHITE borders like the gehrig...or other bleached cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

BSF cards were stored in paper practically from the time they were made and still did not have SNOW WHITE borders like the gehrig...or other bleached cards.

Plus there was provenance explaining the BSF cards.

[Throttlesteer]

One other possibility is to manipulate the scans to make the borders or colors brighter. I'm not saying that bleach was or wasn't used, but it's another way to make the card look good for prospective bidders.

[deadballera]

picked up a couple of T206's last night.

It seemed that prices were lower than what they normally go for. I personally thought some of the lower prices were due to Gavelsnipe not working.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

One other possibility is to manipulate the scans to make the borders or colors brighter. I'm not saying that bleach was or wasn't used, but it's another way to make the card look good for prospective bidders.

Read the description which I quoted.

[Throttlesteer]

I did. It references clean, free of toning. But. It doesnt necessarily negate my comment. A quick Google of 1932 US Caramels shows several old PSA examples with similar borders. Again, I'm not claiming it wasnt bleached, but I'm not as sure about this one as some.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

I did. It references clean, free of toning. But. It doesnt necessarily negate my comment.

PWCC stickered card, US Caramel described as free of toning or nearly so, plus scan that is blinding white. I'll rely on my experience and common sense here, do as you wish.

[RedsFan1941]

I do not know what is more puzzling. That people on this board continue to do business with pwcc or that they post about it like it’s nothing. congrats to everyone on their pwcc pickups. I hope every card is not what it was represented to be.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

I do not know what is more puzzling. That people on this board continue to do business with pwcc or that they post about it like it’s nothing. congrats to everyone on their pwcc pickups. I hope every card is not what it was represented to be.

It is seriously puzzling but with all the ethical questions I have seen posted over the years I am not surprised. The bright side is some very unethical people are honest about it.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

I do not know what is more puzzling. That people on this board continue to do business with pwcc or that they post about it like it’s nothing. congrats to everyone on their pwcc pickups. I hope every card is not what it was represented to be.

Here's why I choose to continue to bid with PWCC:

I live in an area (South-Central Texas), where the closest card show occurs twice a year, and is 200 miles away. I am dealing with chronic medical/physical issues that mean I'm no longer able to travel that far. I'm also not able to walk very far without difficulty.

That leaves ebay and auction houses as my only resource for adding to my collection. Believe me, I look all over for the cards I want (including the BST Forum here), and for the most part, PWCC is one of the very few that seem to get what I'm wanting.

I have always been a "Buy the card, and not the holder!" person. A large amount of the time, I disregard a card on my wantlist even though it is in the grade I want; because it doesn't have the "eye-appeal" I'm looking for, or the seller doesn't provide large enough front/back scans. I carefully examine every card I consider buying.

I totally understand everyone's feelings about the current issues; I tend to agree with them. I do not feel, however, that I can simply disregard PWCC (or anyone else) out-of-hand, if I want to continue collecting.

Steve

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Here's why I choose to continue to bid with PWCC:

I live in an area (South-Central Texas), where the closest card show occurs twice a year, and is 200 miles away. I am dealing with chronic medical/physical issues that mean I'm no longer able to travel that far. I'm also not able to walk very far without difficulty.

That leaves ebay and auction houses as my only resource for adding to my collection. Believe me, I look all over for the cards I want (including the BST Forum here), and for the most part, PWCC is one of the very few that seem to get what I'm wanting.

I have always been a "Buy the card, and not the holder!" person. A large amount of the time, I disregard a card on my wantlist even though it is in the grade I want; because it doesn't have the "eye-appeal" I'm looking for, or the seller doesn't provide large enough front/back scans. I carefully examine every card I consider buying.

I totally understand everyone's feelings about the current issues; I tend to agree with them. I do not feel, however, that I can simply disregard PWCC (or anyone else) out-of-hand, if I want to continue collecting.

Steve

I respectfully suggest that you are exactly the type of prey PWCC is looking for. If you choose to do that after all that has been said here, good luck to you. I personally think you are making a huge mistake, but everyone is entitled to make his or her own decision. I hope that it works out for you.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Soft? I Don’t think so....

SGC 4.5 Green Cobb - $15K
PSA 4.5 Cobb Bat Off - $6K
PSA 4.5 Red Cobb - $5.8K
SGC 5 #144 Goudey Ruth - $10.6K
PSA 5 Brunner’s Young - Nearly $6K
PSA 4 M116 Wagner - $4.7K
PSA 5 T206 Speaker - Nearly $4K
PSA 5 US Caramel Gehrig - $6.1K

Just a few examples of strong pricing.

SGC 6.5 Wajo pitching - $4.1k
PSA 2.5 Matty portrait - $1k
PSA 4.5 Matty portrait - $2k
PSA 6 Matty dark cap - $3.2k
PSA 4 Cy Young portrait - $2.3k

Just a few examples of not strong pricing.

And either way, strong or not, they’re going to hit VCP.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

I do not know what is more puzzling. That people on this board continue to do business with pwcc or that they post about it like it’s nothing. congrats to everyone on their pwcc pickups. I hope every card is not what it was represented to be.

Lots of focus on the bidders, but what about the consignors? Isn’t that really where it starts? Takes both to tango, but surely all the PWCC consignors aren’t scam artists?

Just pointing out there are multiple facets to this whole situation.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by bounce

Lots of focus on the bidders, but what about the consignors? Isn’t that really where it starts? Takes both to tango, but surely all the PWCC consignors aren’t scam artists?

Just pointing out there are multiple facets to this whole situation.

At this point, I don't which are and which aren't. But I damn sure know some are scammers. That, in and of itself, is enough for me to say I'm out. Maybe I will miss some cards on my want list that are actually good. But I have no confidence that is true at this point. So I will take a hard pass on that. I can wait.

[Peter_Spaeth]

They have a card I've been looking for for a long time, a 1969 Topps Super Bob Gibson. I know the card is good because nobody trims a 1969 card with huge rounded corners lol. So it goes. Pass.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They have a card I've been looking for for a long time, a 1969 Topps Super Bob Gibson. I know the card is good because nobody trims a 1969 card with huge rounded corners lol. So it goes. Pass.

Right thing to do IMO, but it still sucks massively. I get it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

So not to change topics but some of you know I've been working behind the scenes. Does anyone know for a certainty that the FBI or other law enforcement is involved? This info isn't for publication and you won't be quoted. It is just to satisfy some people who need to be careful what gets said for obvious reasons. Please PM me if you have knowledge (not conjecture) to share.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

So not to change topics but some of you know I've been working behind the scenes. Does anyone know for a certainty that the FBI or other law enforcement is involved? This info isn't for publication and you won't be quoted. It is just to satisfy some people who need to be careful what gets said for obvious reasons. Please PM me if you have knowledge (not conjecture) to share.

Good luck.

[Brian Van Horn]

Just curious when this whole matter ends up on "American Greed".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Right thing to do IMO, but it still sucks massively. I get it.

It sucks worse that he does what he does.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It sucks worse that he does what he does.

True dat.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

True dat.

Imagine, after everything that's been revealed, he still would have sold that bad PSA 2 T3 Cobb with a buried and bullshit addendum. For me, along with telling me that Gary had essentially retired, a defining moment.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Imagine, after everything that's been revealed, he still would have sold that bad PSA 2 T3 Cobb with a buried and bullshit addendum. For me, along with telling me that Gary had essentially retired, a defining moment.

You are preaching to the choir. Much as it hurts me, 100% agree. Complete bullshit and pretty much a character reveal, as if one was needed.

[Johnny630]

Am I the only one who thinks PWCC's business will be legally fine?

Sure a Black Eye buy Guys Who Collect but I don't see a slow down in their volume of consigned cards coming to auction.... looks to be fine to me.... every auction is loaded surely they all can't be bad.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Imagine, after everything that's been revealed, he still would have sold that bad PSA 2 T3 Cobb with a buried and bullshit addendum. For me, along with telling me that Gary had essentially retired, a defining moment.

That was the nail in the coffin for me.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

I do not know what is more puzzling. That people on this board continue to do business with pwcc or that they post about it like it’s nothing. congrats to everyone on their pwcc pickups. I hope every card is not what it was represented to be.

That is exactly how I feel. Everyone is outraged about cards being doctored, but even people posting in these threads continue to support PWCC.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Soft? I Don’t think so....

SGC 4.5 Green Cobb - $15K
PSA 4.5 Cobb Bat Off - $6K
PSA 4.5 Red Cobb - $5.8K
SGC 5 #144 Goudey Ruth - $10.6K
PSA 5 Brunner’s Young - Nearly $6K
PSA 4 M116 Wagner - $4.7K
PSA 5 T206 Speaker - Nearly $4K
PSA 5 US Caramel Gehrig - $6.1K

Just a few examples of strong pricing.

Just a few examples of fakes

[Peter_Spaeth]

If indeed PWCC has stopped taking Gary's cards, I wonder who he has found?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If indeed PWCC has stopped taking Gary's cards, I wonder who he has found?

Investors

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Investors

Yeah he could set up a website and just sell direct. Or sell on ebay, or Facebook.

[scotgreb]

"I don't go to bed with no whore, and I don't wake up with no whore. That's how I live with myself. What about you?" -- Carl Fox (Martin Sheen) from the movie Wall Street.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[drcy]

Originally Posted by scotgreb

"I don't go to bed with no whore, and I don't wake up with no whore. That's how I live with myself. What about you?" -- Carl Fox (Martin Sheen) from the movie Wall Street.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Reminds me of of a joke told to me by an Englishman:

Two men are getting shaves side by side at the barber shop. The barber starts to apply aftershave to one man and the man says "Whew! Don't that on me. My wife will think I went to a brothel!" The other man getting a shave says "You can use it on me. My wife doesn't know what a brothel smells like."

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you need a lab test to tell you if someone is probably drunk, Dale?
And why is it these cleaned cards all seem to be S_C?

Bleach is easy enough to detect with a black light and a little common sense. I've notices quite a few auctions where their card's borders are a little too clean and crisp. Anyway, Auction Houses have sold stolen, altered and forged material before and only come clean when the get busted.

In Boston the state house has been pilfered several times and in one case, the state's charter was found at auction. In another case, Walter Johnson's Opening Day baseballs signed by presidents were stolen from the Hall and found in a Ron Oscer Auction.

What could cut this in half is if the grading companies took more that 60 seconds to review their items. Grading companies are opinion makers based on what? We don't know who they are or if they have a background in document forensics to adequately determine if what they're handling hasn't been tampered with?

They started adding brightening compounds to bleach in the mid 1950's and this I suspect could dissipate with time but brighteners added to paper stock in the 1940's doesn't. You could do a test and see how long it takes?

As they say, work smarter, not harder for the things that you want. Card collecting is and should be fun but it also requires some research, and if you dont know something, ask questions -there's no such thing as a stupid question. We're all here for the same goals and to help.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by topcat61

Bleach is easy enough to detect with a black light and a little common sense. I've notices quite a few auctions where their card's borders are a little too clean and crisp. Anyway, Auction Houses have sold stolen, altered and forged material before and only come clean when the get busted.

In Boston the state house has been pilfered several times and in one case, the state's charter was found at auction. In another case, Walter Johnson's Opening Day baseballs signed by presidents were stolen from the Hall and found in a Ron Oscer Auction.

What could cut this in half is if the grading companies took more that 60 seconds to review their items. Grading companies are opinion makers based on what? We don't know who they are or if they have a background in document forensics to adequately determine if what they're handling hasn't been tampered with?

They started adding brightening compounds to bleach in the mid 1950's and this I suspect could dissipate with time but brighteners added to paper stock in the 1940's doesn't. You could do a test and see how long it takes?

As they say, work smarter, not harder for the things that you want. Card collecting is and should be fun but it also requires some research, and if you dont know something, ask questions -there's no such thing as a stupid question. We're all here for the same goals and to help.

Responding to the portion in bold...

They are purely "self-appointed" experts, and have no credentials to speak of (aside from what they claim, in order to garner the most profits). It's a scam that people have mindlessly bought into, hook, line and sinker.

Realizing it is not purposeful to complain without proposing a potential solution...

Perhaps someday there could be an independent agency that would certify Professional Graders after they pass enough seminars, courses or tests to qualify. They would subsequently earn a degree of sorts. An important aspect of this would be to ensure PSA has no involvement in the certification process. Their is ample evidence that they cannot be trusted, and that their intervention would taint the entire process.

So the Certification Entity could not be the PSA School of Authentication (or Beckett or SGC, for that matter).

Would it be profitable, or even a good business venture? Probably not.

Would it benefit the hobby? Definitely

[MULLINS5]

If I ever buy a graded card again I'll first research it to see if PWCC had it in their possession at any point. If so, I'll pass. Reality, though, I may never buy a graded card again and I've been a strong supporter for the past 20 years.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Well, soft or not, I didn’t bid. Hell, I totally forgot an auction was ending. Probably the first time in 3-4 years I didn’t bid on something. I have to imagine I am not the only one.

You're not.

[Rhotchkiss]

I noticed another auction started. While I am still not bidding, naturally I am super curious, on many levels, about what’s in the auction and how it shakes out. Aside from a PSA 7 red Cobb (that’s not a suspect occurrence in a pwcc auction...) and the e105 CY young, which is beast and something I would totally bid on otherwise, I think the pre-1920/pre-war T and E offerings (like the last auction) are fairly weak, compared to prior auctions. I will be tracking this auction with interest.

What do you think of the auction? I think perhaps this whole mess is impacting PWCC as far as the pre-war T, E, and D (“TED”) cards are concerned.

No lawsuits or criminal charges (yet), but us consumers and consignors do have a voice through buying and selling habits/decisions.

One thing I notice is that it’s often only the higher graded, stud HOF cards that get the special PWCC stickers- do we really need a sticker to tell us a 7 has good eye appeal?!?!

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

One thing I notice is that it’s often only the higher graded, stud HOF cards that get the special PWCC stickers- do we really need a sticker to tell us a 7 has good eye appeal?!?!

Those stickers have shown us over time that they're the best chances to be altered by many of the vintage scam artists revealed in the last six months. Those are Brent's beaconing device to tell you these cards are most likely trimmed/bleached/recolored and soon to be returned for a full refund and upcoming purgatory in an FBI evidence warehouse/vault.

[RedsFan1941]

any brown lenoxes in this one?

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

any brown lenoxes in this one?

Thankfully no. As I suspect you know considering your post, a Brown Lenox was the last card I bid on (and won) in a pwcc auction in June - and that would be tough to hold off on. But since that auction, I have chosen not to participate in their auctions.

[Exhibitman]

PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC

--Thanks for the chuckle, John.

[swarmee]

That's been my signature block for months now. It's kind of like Congress I guess. Public trust has eroded on the TPGs and auctionhouses exposed, but all the lines of business still run through them.

[bounce]

agree that the selection is relatively weak. I'm interested also to see how prices may be impacted by all the recent states that have sales tax being collected now.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by bounce

agree that the selection is relatively weak. I'm interested also to see how prices may be impacted by all the recent states that have sales tax being collected now.

I don’t think the selection is weak. There are a lot of Ruth and Cobb cards in the current auction... like the vgex Maple Crispette Ruth. Or the VGEX Type 2 coupon Cobb. wink wink.

[BeanTown]

I don't keep up with PWCC as I'm sure someone else will replace them as a PSA outlet for altered cards. Questionable business practices and all the bad press has to catch up with them. So, how is Small Traditions looking as I hear they are gaining in popularity.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are numerous outlets for altered cards. PWCC is high profile, but all the focus on them (part of which was due to the ability to track before and after scans) should not leave the impression they are unique in this regard.

[T206Collector]

Poor Jackie...

Originally Posted by corndog

Card is in the newest PWCC Ebay auction.

Purchased raw for $900.00 on May 05, 2015. Seller mentions a surface crease.

"You are bidding on a 1948 Leaf #79 Jackie Robinson Rookie card. The card is a great looking card. It has 4 nice corners, and nicely centered. It has a stain on the back of the card and also has a surface crease. Check the pictures. . Free shipping"

Links to first purchase:
Worthpoint - https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...-rc-1753033429
CardTarget - http://www.cardtarget.com/cards/53513

Card is now a SGC 7 with a glowing description.

"Those who've studied the '48 Leaf Jackie Robinson rookie know quickly how this example is a world apart from the rest. Easily ranking among the finest copies we've had the pleasure of brokering in our long tenure and conservatively ranking within the top 30% of our quality spectrum. This card lights up the room with its glowing lemon-yellow background and virtually 50-50 centering. The borders are virtually immaculate, the periphery is blemish free and the card stock is NM-MT. Furthermore, three corners are pin-point sharp while the bottom right has a microscopic touch present at the extreme point. An exceedingly light horizontal print roller mark through Jackie's hat is all that keeps from grading higher. In conclusion, this is simply a world class example of a highly significant production, both in the world in trading cards and our country's culture and history."

Stain reduced at the top of the card front. Edges (especially at the top) are significantly better. No mention of the crease.

PWCC listing - https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-J...wAAOSw7gpdlmJK

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5573

[perezfan]

Ugh...

How many 1948-49 Leafs does that make now? Hate to say it, but I'd be suspicious of any '48-'49 Leaf Cards graded "5" or better.