Hey, pennant guys

[perezfan]

OK... Here's one that I find to be a head-scratcher. Perhaps Kyle and the other pennant guys will find it to be a mystery as well.

Check out this green Brooklyn Pennant with the Bum inside of Ebbets Field. Classic Trench design... right?

Well, not so fast!

Check out the second photo. We have the classic blue felt Trench "Bum in Ebbets Field" Pennant (complete with Trench Logo). But also note the infamous "Creepy Uncle" Bums Pennant from Ad Flag. The font stating "Da Bums" (right above his head) is identical to that on the green Trench Pennant.

So is it possible that Trench and Ad Flag shared some of the design work, or that some pennant artists of the era worked for both companies? Perhaps someone here has a better explanation.

[ooo-ribay]

The “creepy Uncle” is marked as Ad Flag?

My gut tells me artwork may have been stolen, more than shared.

Kyle will figure it out.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

The “creepy Uncle” is marked as Ad Flag?

My gut tells me artwork may have been stolen, more than shared.

Kyle will figure it out.

Yep... Creepy Uncle is an Ad Flag creation

[Domer05]

Mark, if I recall you posed the very same question months (years?) ago on this thread and referenced the very same green Ebbets Field/"Da Bums" pennant. Observations like this one inspired me to start looking at these companies further in search of some answers. That effort eventually led to my BLOG.

So, thank you. (I think I even used your photo of that pennant in my Trench post.)

Anyway, I'm working on an ADFLAG post that I think will answer all of our questions. With that said, I hinted at what I think the answer is in my last post: https://pennantfever.weebly.com/blog.../trench-mfg-co

There are plenty of examples of instances wherein it appears Trench's designs were copied by their competitors. The chief offender was ADFLAG, but also ASCO and to a lesser extent, Keezer, were all guilty. I don't suspect there was any type of partnership between these companies. The artwork was simply ripped off--plain and simple--because it was in high demand and it wasn't legally protected like it would be today.

There's a Cincinnati Reds stadium pennant comparison in my last post you may want to re-visit. It looks a lot like the aforementioned Ebbets Field hybrid you reference. The artwork of Crosley Field is identical between the two pennants ... but for one small difference: Only Trench placed their mark beside the image. That's significant. Since ADFLAG was then secreting their name within their artwork, we should ask why they omitted it on this particular design? The most logical answer is that this wasn't their artwork, and placing their name in it would have crossed the line.

Like signing your name on someone else's painting.

In sum, it looks like ADFLAG reproduced some of Trench's original artwork on their pennants. To make the designs their own, they then doctored the pennants up with their own text, using their own font. The end result are these Frankenstein-like pennants that represent an amalgamation of two companies' work.

And there have to be other Frankensteins out there! I suspect they will involve stadium pennants made in the mid-1950s. By the 1960s, it looks like ADFLAG began making their own stadium renderings; however, when compared together, they're still very similar to Trench's designs, like the two Chicago Cubs/Wrigley Field stadium pennants shown in my last post.

Much more to come.

[ooo-ribay]

I have many ADFLAG NY and SF Giants pennants (same design, different colors, ADFLAG under catcher's foot). These don't seem to have ripped anyone off. Interesting that the one with Candlestick is not marked ADFLAG.

[jimm]

Great pennants

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Domer05

One more thing: I also noted on your '62 photo pennant that those same initials "WC" appear in the upper left corner of the pennant. So, that's now two different Trench pennants from that year with these initials. Can't be the artist's initials, as we last suspected.

Unless he/she is also a photographer.

One of my Giants collector frenemies thinks it stands for WinCraft. It could be. I was surprised to learn from their website that WinCraft has been around since 1961. And they do spell it with an upper case W and C.

[Domer05]

It could be WinCraft. And you are correct that WinCraft's origins date back to 1961; however, I find it unlikely based upon my preliminary research into them that they were set-up to manufacture MLB pennants, and for an out of market team no less, within a year of opening.

I do plan to cover WinCraft and a related pennant maker from the same Minnesota town, ASCO, in a future post. But, since you bring WinCraft up, I found an article describing their beginnings as being rather humble. It began as a three person operation doing business above a bar in Winona, MN. What's more, they principally made pom poms and celluloid buttons for local high schools. No mention of pennants or other felt novelties.

Given these modest beginnings, I think it unlikely they made your pennant. As far as I know, WinCraft didn't start making felt pennants until the late 1970s after they merged with ASCO, another Winona-based company that had been making pennants since the late 1940s.

Again, my research is not complete so I could be wrong on all this. Still, I can offer no better answer as to what "WC" might have stood for. I'm curious if other pennants from the early 1960s bore that same mark, or it was limited to just Giant pennants....

And as to ADFLAG, you are correct as to the maker of those three Giants pennants you displayed. It looks like ADFLAG secreted their name in their original artwork throughout the 1950s, but stopped doing so by the mid-1960s. The "Chavez Ravine" stadium pennants below are very similar to your Candlestick one and were made around the same time by ADFLAG as their answer to Trench's Dodger Stadium pennants. One's even dated 1965. Like your Candlestick pennant, neither has a maker's mark. So, for some reason they just discarded this practice by mid-decade. Shortly thereafter it looks like they may have gotten out of the pennant business to focus on more profitable product lines.

[Fballguy]

Perhaps WC is a regional company located somewhere in No.Cal?

[bocca001]

Rob's version of this 1962 Giants team photo pennant has the WC. Mine does not. I actually have two of these pennants, and neither has the WC. It is hard to imagine that this pennant had a long shelf life. Long enough to have a variation or a knock off. Maybe WC was a specific vendor?

[Domer05]

This Cal pennant sure looks to me to be a Trench-made pennant. It's hard to put in words, but if you look at enough of their stadium pennants, they start to look the same.

One sign, for instance, is the way the artist writes the name of the stadium beside the drawing. In the 1950s, he/she used a combination of upper and lower case letters. Also, they were hand written, which means if you look at enough of these, you start to recognize the handwriting.

Below you'll see a side-by-side comparison of what I'm talking about. Note that the word "Stadium" sure looks similar, but for the "S". That difference notwithstanding, I still think the same artist drew these two renderings, and Trench made both pennants.

Which is consistent with our previous beliefs, namely that Rob's '62 photo pennant and '62 batter on baseball near bridge pennants--both of which bore this "WC" mark--were made by Trench.

It's noteworthy that the University California is located in Berkeley, just across the bay from San Francisco. This fact, and the observation that only some of these pennants bore the "WC" mark while others didn't, suggests that "WC" signifies either the name of the concessionaire that ran both Candlestick and Memorial Stadium, or else a bay area retailer that did a lot of business with Trench, like a novelty or sporting goods store that would sell both Giants and Bears pennants.

I think we may be close to solving this mystery....

[ooo-ribay]

Have we discussed this before? Marc’s photo pennant used to be mine.

[bocca001]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Have we discussed this before? Marc’s photo pennant used to be mine.

Rob- That pennant has a "unique" smell among my pennants. Was it always that way? Did you happen to pee on it before you sold it?

I'm attaching a pic of my other copy. The rare brown front with black back version. I bought this one when I figured that I'd have to wait forever to get a better one (and then, of course, the better looking one showed up soon thereafter... the brown one does smell better though).

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Rob- That pennant has a "unique" smell among my pennants. Was it always that way? Did you happen to pee on it before you sold it?

I'm attaching a pic of my other copy. The rare brown front with black back version. I bought this one when I figured that I'd have to wait forever to get a better one (and then, of course, the better looking one showed up soon thereafter... the brown one does smell better though).

To the first question: not that I remember. I know it used to be mine, due the the ring left by a rusty pin.

I assume you’re being facetious about the “rare brown front with black back.”

[bocca001]

Yeah, the front on that one is faded by the sun, so it is now brown instead of black. Very noticeable in person. The back is still very black.

I think I noticed that yours has different colored tassels (orange). Maybe those with orange tassels have the WC, whereas black tassels have no WC?

[jimm]

Originally Posted by Domer05

It's noteworthy that the University California is located in Berkeley, just across the bay from San Francisco. This fact, and the observation that only some of these pennants bore the "WC" mark while others didn't, suggests that "WC" signifies either the name of the concessionaire that ran both Candlestick and Memorial Stadium, or else a bay area retailer that did a lot of business with Trench, like a novelty or sporting goods store that would sell both Giants and Bears pennants.

My Cal pennant lacks this mark, in fact my collection is devoid of any marks I believe, so many variations

[jimm]

[bocca001]

That's awesome Jimm. I've been looking for that one. Love the guy swinging the redwood.

[jimm]

Thanks, dont see them often. Played in Rohnert Park Stadium, an Angel affiliate I think. Later inhabited by the Sonoma County Crushers of the Independant Western League. Kevin Mitchell even managed them and managed to get in a brawl where the other teams owner got clobbered

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

[71buc]

For some reason this one has proven to be elusive. I finally picked one up today. Not an earth shattering event but at least it keeps this thread on the first page.

[perezfan]

Great Pirates Pennant! You never see that variation...

Awesome pickup!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by 71buc

For some reason this one has proven to be elusive. I finally picked one up today. Not an earth shattering event but at least it keeps this thread on the first page.

Always great to pick up something you’ve known was “out there.” I doubt you even had to pay much.

[71buc]

$30 well spent

[bocca001]

I was in SF this past week went to a Giants game. They have an area called the "Vault" with some memorabilia to help celebrate 60 years in SF. They only had one pennant on display (a not so rare version with a pitcher that was not even worthy of a picture). But they did have these two banners. One that looked very much like Rob's. And a second pretty cool one of a batter that was supposedly hung along SF streets to help welcome the team in 1958.

[jimm]

Very nice, dig the card display as well

[ooo-ribay]

The “Welcome Giants” is either on loan from a Net54 member or he sold it to the Giants. I’m guessing on loan.

[bocca001]

They said that many of the items were on loan. And the "Welcome Giants" banner was really nice.

[jimm]

A few more...

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

[perezfan]

Very nice pickups, jimm!


On a separate note, I've noticed a disturbing (and growing) trend of Ebay Sellers portraying reproduction pennants as vintage. Way too many examples to list, but here are a few examples...


Seller uses the word "vintage" in his description, and has it priced at 6 times the value of a reproduction. Hopefully nobody gets sucked in...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Bro....c100011.m1850


Just another obvious Mitchell & Ness Repro, which has garnered 2 bids over $100 so far. You would hope that anyone with over $100 to spend on a piece of felt could tell the difference...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-ORIGIN...t/192630816617


Common reproduction of a Brooklyn Bums Pennant. But the seller uses the word "vintage" and has it priced at 4 times the value of a repro...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-MLB...gAAOSwojdbOVXk


There are far more.... it took me about 4 minutes to find these three

[ooo-ribay]

^^^ P.T. Barnum’s watch was slow.

[Duluth Eskimo]

It bothers me too. I sometimes email them and obviously get no response. They all know exactly the scam they are running. I don’t know how people live with themselves, but that is society nowadays.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

It bothers me too. I sometimes email them and obviously get no response. They all know exactly the scam they are running. I don’t know how people live with themselves, but that is society nowadays.

I emailed someone about this a couple weeks back and they actually updated their listing. I expected a snarky response but all I got was "ok" and when I checked the listing was revised.

But I agree...I've noticed many more recently. I was always thankful reproductions hadn't really made their way into the pennant hobby. They've pretty much ruined the card hobby. Just about any card you search on eBay will have unauthorized fakes in the search results.

Don't know if I ever posted about it on here, but I bought a "rare" Packers pennant from a guy in Canada. It looked a little weird but it was the Packers so I took a shot. The thing was made out of fuzzy construction paper that he called "felt" and literally looked like he made it in his basement using supplies from Michaels.

He didn't offer returns, but when I threatened to open a "not as described" case with eBay...the first response was defensive and resistant. But after opening the case, someone else reached out to me and couldn't have been more cooperative. In fact, he refunded my money without me even sending it back. I didn't want it, so I did send it back...and once he received, he sent me another $10 for the return shipping cost. He's got others listed now. I see multiple teams and sports. They are junk. I also noticed he's dropped his asking prices pretty significantly.

[perezfan]

Well, unfortunately a couple of bidders felt this Mitchell & Ness Repro was worth over $300. Such a shame.... I wonder if the "winner" will still be happy when he has it in-hand?

https://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/19...p2047675.l2565

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Well, unfortunately a couple of bidders felt this Mitchell & Ness Repro was worth over $300. Such a shame.... I wonder if the "winner" will still be happy when he has it in-hand?

https://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/19...p2047675.l2565

Just curious...Did Mitchell & Ness make more than one version of this pennant? The M&N version I saw had a thinner spine and no 1946 designation on it. Do you think it was added later by someone?

That's a pretty good looking reproduction. Damn Mitchell and Ness.

[perezfan]

Yes... Someone probably added the date along the spine. The graphics of the pennant appear to be the typical M&N "raised velvet", but the date written on the spine looks like paint.

If authentic, this pennant would have sold closer to $2K.

[bocca001]

Well... you all know that I ended up with an SF Seals one of these (modern pennant with vintage look) at an early point in my pennant collecting career. That Seals pennant was even listed/pictured in Egner's vintage pennant price guide, which was why I thought it was ok. So people do get fooled.

Here are a few recent pickups that are clearly vintage (both were cheap, and I'm a sucker for red).

Jimm- if you read this, I want to know if your Bay Area collection includes a "Billy Ball" A's pennant. That's another pennant on my want my list (I heard so many Billy Ball commercials on the radio as a kid).

[jimm]

Nice don't recall a Billy Ball one... an abundance of the BigHead player style ones in my area. Probably closer to 1990

[jimm]

Do the MNs say MN on them somewheres?

[perezfan]

Unfortunately not...

They come with a paper hang-tag that has the Mitchell & Ness name and logo plastered all over it. But once that is detached, there are no markings on the actual felt pennant. Very unfortunate, as these can look pretty convincing when artificially "aged".

[thetahat]

Mitchell and Ness got me started on my vintage pennant addiction. I live near Philly and their retail store. Every Super Bowl weekend they had a 50% off sale on most items, including their repro pennants which were in their infancy. I bought some to decorate a game room. But they had some vintage pennants scattered throughout the store as decorations, and I thought they looked better, though they were not for sale. I was new to eBay and eventually started my collection.

In most instances you can tell right away by sight, but when it comes to those full sized BF3 pennants it is kinda tough ...

[Fballguy]

When did Mitchell and Ness make these? Sounds like back in the mid-90s? I assume they stopped not soon after? They don't still make them do they?

[Fballguy]

Picked this up recently in a lot of college pennants. I'm guessing this Pratt Institute in Brooklyn, NY. They did play football in this era of pennant. Though not sure. I'm guessing early 1900s?

[Fballguy]

Happy to get this rare New York Jets as well.

[ooo-ribay]

Awesome condition on those bad boys! ^^^^

[perezfan]

Great stuff, Rob...

That Pratt Pennant is sweet, and definitely early 1900s.

Been a long while since I've posted any pickups, so here are a few recent ones. The highlights are a super-rare Rockford Peaches Pennant is NRMT shape. I wanted just one example from the AAGPBL, and this was the one to have.

Also a single-year Football Franchise - the NY Bulldogs. A somewhat crazy and confusing history, as the Boston Yanks became the NY Bulldogs. After just one year, they became the New York Yanks for 2 years, and then the Dallas Texans. Thanks Google!

Also landed a rare 1960 All Star Game Pennant, with many thanks to my net54 friend Erik, for the assist...

[jimm]

Well thats a nice grouping!

[perezfan]

Thanks... I know... No focus whatsoever.

Just a completely random grouping of cool felt.

[Fballguy]

Great haul Mark! The 1960 All Star pennant reminds me of a similar NFL All Star pennant. Same team logos design. The Rockford pennant is sweet!

Happy to see that Mating Bears pennant find a good home.

Rob

[ooo-ribay]

Those are awesome, “Mr. Mint”!

[Duluth Eskimo]

Those are some nice pick ups guys. Mark, I’m surprised you were fine with the wear to that 1960 All Star. I dont think most people understand how difficult some pennants are to find. I have the American and National versions of this pennant, but not in the blue color. They are really hard to find given how easy most 1960’s pennants are to find. I also think a lot of dated 1961 Yankees pennants are very difficult for their age. You would think that anything from New York would be easy to find, but that’s not always the case.