OT: Greatest Living Four

[Golfcollector]

Nolan ryan
6 no hitters
all time strikeouts leader...will Never have this record beat.

To me that soldifies him on this list...too bad he played for generally bad teams

[basesareempty]

Originally Posted by BlueDevil89

I assume that they were looking for players from the 50's & 60's era, plus one Cincy player.

I would have went with Aaron, Mays, Koufax and Frank Robinson (Cincy player). I assume they went with Bench because they wanted a player who spent his whole career in Cincy.

Rose was left out because he is still not fully accepted back into baseball by MLB yet. The fact that they let him be part of pre-game was a major step forward.

If they were not insisting on a Reds player, Yogi Berra should have definitely been included. He could have even bumped Koufax, but I think they wanted a pitcher included.

I agree!

[toledo_mudhen]

I was pretty happy with the 4 that were chosen - Stirred lots of memories for me all in the matter of just a few minutes.....Awesome

[Donscards]

Aaron---Mays---Koufax---Rose

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by celoknob

Koufax had one of the best five year runs ever but if I was picking one pitcher I would definitely choose Randy Johnson, Maddux or Seaver as having greater careers.

I think it's tough to make this decision without having seen the players during their careers. I'm also biased towards Seaver as a Mets fan who grew up on him but also remember the long downside of his career -- which didn't exist for Koufax thus the strong memeories he left in fans' minds.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Cmount76

How do you leave Seaver out of the mix? I know his career was substantially longer, but he had nearly 150 more wins , 1,200 more K's, and a career ERA that was basically the same.

Sandy had an amazing 4 year run, something that will probably never be seen again with the way pitchers are currently dealt with, but let's not negate "Tom Terrific"

+1 - George Thomas Seaver is baseball's greatest living pitcher. His WAR & JAWS stats are the final nail in the coffin to justify that stance. Only Clemens has better WAR stats among living pitchers and we all know jolly Roger's use of steroids after he left Boston bump him from any top 10 list discussion.....he was a blatant cheater!

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think it's tough to make this decision without having seen the players during their careers. I'm also biased towards Seaver as a Mets fan who grew up on him but also remember the long downside of his career -- which didn't exist for Koufax thus the strong memeories he left in fans' minds.

Jeff - here's a few Seaver stats few people are aware of: 1) After his first 15 seasons that cover approximately 4,000 innings pitched, his lifetime ERA was an incredible 2.60!!! Talk about an unparalleled combination of peak value and longevity. 2) Along with Walter Johnson, Seaver is one of only 2 pitchers EVER who won 300+ games, post 3,000+ strikeouts and have a sub-3.00 lifetime ERA...... wow!

Joe T.

[7nohitter]

I have primarily collected Nolan Ryan since 1988, when I was 13. However, I would not put him on the 'Four Greatest Living Players' list. His accomplishments will never be duplicated, BUT his ERA was higher (though many teams would love to have him today) and look at the number of walks he issued in his career!

Great guy, yes. Hall of Famer, yes. One of the top 50 greatest living players, yes.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Aaron, Mays, Rose, Seaver.

[OldEnglishD]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

Aaron, Mays, Rose, Seaver.

+1

[darwinbulldog]

Just looking at the stats on the field I'd go with Bonds, Clemens, Mays, and Aaron.

But if you want to disqualify any or all of those four guys for PEDs, here are the next four: Seaver, A-Rod, Randy Johnson, Schmidt.

[Cubswin82]

3 of the 4 were spot on...but Bench? No way...he's not even the greatest living catcher. Yogi should have been there...that 4 I could have 100% agreed on!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Jeff - here's a few Seaver stats few people are aware of: 1) After his first 15 seasons that cover approximately 4,000 innings pitched, his lifetime ERA was an incredible 2.60!!! Talk about an unparalleled combination of peak value and longevity. 2) Along with Walter Johnson, Seaver is one of only 2 pitchers EVER who won 300+ games, post 3,000+ strikeouts and have a sub-3.00 lifetime ERA...... wow!

Joe T.

Do you remember when you heard he was traded for Doug Flynn, Pat Zachry and Steve Henderson? One of the darkest days of my youth. I still cringe when hearing the name "M. Donald Grant."

[bbcard1]

Not saying I don't get Koufax…I do, but another pitcher who played at the same time and hasn't gotten any love is Juan Marichal. ERA and srikeouts are comparable but she won 80+ more games and won 100 games more than he lost.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Do you remember when you heard he was traded for Doug Flynn, Pat Zachry and Steve Henderson? One of the darkest days of my youth. I still cringe when hearing the name "M. Donald Grant."

Absolutely Jeff.....the "Midnight Massacre"! What a horrible day that was for all faithful Met fans.

[Joshchisox08]

Just to be different than others that were mentioned so much:

"The Big Hurt" Frank Thomas
"The Big Unit" Randy Johnson
"Pudge" Carlton Fisk
Joe Torre

[peterb69]

Mays, Aaron, Rose, Bonds

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Not saying I don't get Koufax…I do, but another pitcher who played at the same time and hasn't gotten any love is Juan Marichal. ERA and srikeouts are comparable but she won 80+ more games and won 100 games more than he lost.

The years they pitched together, Koufax led the NL in wins 2 times, tied with Marichal once, Marichal never led the league by himself. Koufax led in era 5 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in strike outs 4 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in FIP 6 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in WHIP 4 times, Marichal 1. Koufax led in Ks/9 6 times, Marichal 0.

You say strike outs and era are comparable? Marichal's high for Ks was 248. Koufax had seasons of 382, 317, and 306. Ks/9 Koufax 9.3 Marichal 5.9. Marichal's best era was 2.13. Koufax's last 4 seasons were 1.88, 1.74, 2.04 and 1.73. How are those comparable? There is good reason why Koufax won 3 Cy Youngs, 1 MVP, 2 MVP runner-ups and 2 World Series MVPs during those years and Marichal didn't get a single Cy Young vote.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Beatles Guy

Seventh game of the World Series, who do you pitch - Seaver, Ryan, Koufax or Gibson? I have to go Gibson.

In 1965, Walter Alston had the choice to pitch a Hofer on full rest or pitch Koufax on 2 days rest in game 7. He chose Koufax and Koufax pitched his 2nd shutout in 3 games. I'd pitch Koufax over Gibson, but I wouldn't argue with anyone picking Gibby. The only 2 players with multiple World Series MVPS and the 2 best big game pitchers of the modern era, but Koufax's better post season era 0.95 to 1.89 makes the difference to me.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Not saying I don't get Koufax…I do, but another pitcher who played at the same time and hasn't gotten any love is Juan Marichal. ERA and srikeouts are comparable but she won 80+ more games and won 100 games more than he lost.

Did Juan go the same route that Bruce Jenner went ???

Is she know known as Juanita ?

[bcbgcbrcb]

Offensively, I would go with:

Aaron
Mays
F Robby
Bonds

Pitching-wise, I would say:

Big Unit
Seaver
Maddux
Pedro

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by rats60

The years they pitched together, Koufax led the NL in wins 2 times, tied with Marichal once, Marichal never led the league by himself. Koufax led in era 5 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in strike outs 4 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in FIP 6 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in WHIP 4 times, Marichal 1. Koufax led in Ks/9 6 times, Marichal 0.

You say strike outs and era are comparable? Marichal's high for Ks was 248. Koufax had seasons of 382, 317, and 306. Ks/9 Koufax 9.3 Marichal 5.9. Marichal's best era was 2.13. Koufax's last 4 seasons were 1.88, 1.74, 2.04 and 1.73. How are those comparable? There is good reason why Koufax won 3 Cy Youngs, 1 MVP, 2 MVP runner-ups and 2 World Series MVPs during those years and Marichal didn't get a single Cy Young vote.

Sandy Koufax's standing amongst baseballs greatest pitchers ever will always be a huge conundrum with no definitive resolution in sight. While he is the irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever (1963 - 1966), his overall standing is marred with question marks. First & foremost is the fact that he excelled in the most formidable decade ever for pitchers. Through 1968, the 15 inch mound was a major reason for some of the most incredible single season pitching performances. It wasn't until they lowered the rubber to 10 inches in 1969 that a somewhat equal balance was restored. Additionally, how about Koufax's first 7 seasons which were extremely poor to average at best? How do you truly measure his extreme success vs. His extreme failures over a 7 year period? It all comes down to establishing an equitable balance between longevity and peak success and, sorry to say, Koufax falls short on this basis to the likes of Seaver. Carlton, Palmer, Johnson, Maddux, etc. That is why the JAWS concept of rating players is widely accepted by many experts for it measures a players career WAR AT 50% and his best 7 seasons at the remains 50% , thus combining peak value and longevity. Interestingly enough, excluding the cheater Roger Clemens, Seaver leads all post-WW II pitchers in both WAR & JAWS with Maddux and Johnson right behind Seaver. Simply srated, an incredible 4/5 year run that ranks as the finest ever is still not formidable enough to place a pitcher as king of the hill when it is not coupled with ANY additional formidable seasons.

[packs]

There are only 3 pitchers in history to have won the Triple Crown three times:

Sandy Koufax
Walter Johnson
Grover Cleveland Alexander

Those three names belong together. Juan Marichal does not.

[Orioles1954]

Cal, Brooks, Eddie and Palmer. What can I say? I'm a homer!

[brewing]

Originally Posted by Cmount76

Sandy had an amazing 4 year run, something that will probably never be seen again with the way pitchers are currently dealt with, "

I believe we already saw it at the turn of the century, with 2 different pitchers.

[Touch'EmAll]

Vintageclout remarks on the height of the pitching mound - and how it helped Koufax. I have even heard stories of the Dodgers fooling with the mound even more for additional help for Koufax (only rumor to my knowledge, but?) Ryan started to throw his insane stuff after mound was dropped. Can you imagine how many no-hitters he would have had if he played a decade earlier? Oh, My! Ryan is a very unique pitcher that you have to analyze "outside the box" for full appreciation - not so cut and dry by just looking at a few mathematical numbers. And the poor team he played for, come on, sure didn't help. I saw him live many times at Anaheim Stadium, The Big A. The crowd was on a special heightened awareness of anticipation each time he pitched. Many times (not always) pure awesomeness! Like M.C. Hammer said, "Can't touch this".

Back to 4, how about 5: Berra, Ryan, Mays, Aaron & Koufax.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Sandy Koufax's standing amongst baseballs greatest pitchers ever will always be a huge conundrum with no definitive resolution in sight. While he is the irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever (1963 - 1966), his overall standing is marred with question marks. First & foremost is the fact that he excelled in the most formidable decade ever for pitchers. Through 1968, the 15 inch mound was a major reason for some of the most incredible single season pitching performances. It wasn't until they lowered the rubber to 10 inches in 1969 that a somewhat equal balance was restored. Additionally, how about Koufax's first 7 seasons which were extremely poor to average at best? How do you truly measure his extreme success vs. His extreme failures over a 7 year period? It all comes down to establishing an equitable balance between longevity and peak success and, sorry to say, Koufax falls short on this basis to the likes of Seaver. Carlton, Palmer, Johnson, Maddux, etc. That is why the JAWS concept of rating players is widely accepted by many experts for it measures a players career WAR AT 50% and his best 7 seasons at the remains 50% , thus combining peak value and longevity. Interestingly enough, excluding the cheater Roger Clemens, Seaver leads all post-WW II pitchers in both WAR & JAWS with Maddux and Johnson right behind Seaver. Simply srated, an incredible 4/5 year run that ranks as the finest ever is still not formidable enough to place a pitcher as king of the hill when it is not coupled with ANY additional formidable seasons.

That's your opinion. I was able to watch Koufax pitch. He was the best I've ever seen. His performance over those 4-5 seasons along with his brilliance in the post season make it easy for me to say he was the best pitcher of the modern era and the greatest lefty of all time.

You simply can't use JAWS for Koufax. First of all, bringing up his early years makes me question your knowledge of baseball history. In 1954, the Dodgers signed a player named Roberto Clemente as a bonus baby. Because they sent him to the minors, the Pirates were able to draft him that fall from the Dodgers. So, when the Dodgers signed Sandy Koufax in 1955, they weren't going to repeat that mistake. Koufax couldn't be sent to the minors. Unlike Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, etc. , Koufax couldn't develop pitching against weak competition, he had to pitch against the best and his stats suffered.

Second, we don't know what Koufax would have done after 1966. He didn't have access to the modern medicine of today and chose to retire in his prime. There is no doubt in my mind that if he had chosen career over long term health, he would have continued to be the best pitcher in baseball, winning Cy Youngs, MVPS and World Championships and this wouldn't even be a debate.

[Wayne]

I would go with
Nolan Ryan
Hank Aaron
Cal Ripken
Willie Mays

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by rats60

The years they pitched together, Koufax led the NL in wins 2 times, tied with Marichal once, Marichal never led the league by himself. Koufax led in era 5 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in strike outs 4 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in FIP 6 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in WHIP 4 times, Marichal 1. Koufax led in Ks/9 6 times, Marichal 0.

You say strike outs and era are comparable? Marichal's high for Ks was 248. Koufax had seasons of 382, 317, and 306. Ks/9 Koufax 9.3 Marichal 5.9. Marichal's best era was 2.13. Koufax's last 4 seasons were 1.88, 1.74, 2.04 and 1.73. How are those comparable? There is good reason why Koufax won 3 Cy Youngs, 1 MVP, 2 MVP runner-ups and 2 World Series MVPs during those years and Marichal didn't get a single Cy Young vote.

It goes back to how you judge them. The value over the career was greater for Marichal than Koufax as he won 100 more games (nearly) and had a better win percentage on teams that were not as successful. He was not popular, both because of his nationality and deportment and the fact that he wrapped a bat around John Roseboro's head. That contributed to his poor showing in popularity contests. If you want to make the argument the Koufax was better over a short period of time and Marichal was better over a long period of time, I have no beef with that.

[packs]

My living four:

Sandy Koufax
Hank Aaron
Greg Maddux
Rickey Henderson

[tedzan]

YOGI BERRA

WHITEY FORD

SANDY KOUFAX

WILLIE MAYS



TED Z
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
Still searching for these 4 cards to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)
.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Sandy Koufax's standing amongst baseballs greatest pitchers ever will always be a huge conundrum with no definitive resolution in sight. While he is the irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever (1963 - 1966), his overall standing is marred with question marks. First & foremost is the fact that he excelled in the most formidable decade ever for pitchers. Through 1968, the 15 inch mound was a major reason for some of the most incredible single season pitching performances. It wasn't until they lowered the rubber to 10 inches in 1969 that a somewhat equal balance was restored. Additionally, how about Koufax's first 7 seasons which were extremely poor to average at best? How do you truly measure his extreme success vs. His extreme failures over a 7 year period? It all comes down to establishing an equitable balance between longevity and peak success and, sorry to say, Koufax falls short on this basis to the likes of Seaver. Carlton, Palmer, Johnson, Maddux, etc. That is why the JAWS concept of rating players is widely accepted by many experts for it measures a players career WAR AT 50% and his best 7 seasons at the remains 50% , thus combining peak value and longevity. Interestingly enough, excluding the cheater Roger Clemens, Seaver leads all post-WW II pitchers in both WAR & JAWS with Maddux and Johnson right behind Seaver. Simply srated, an incredible 4/5 year run that ranks as the finest ever is still not formidable enough to place a pitcher as king of the hill when it is not coupled with ANY additional formidable seasons.

I have an issue with the "irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever" statement. Why is Koufax' 4 years better than Lefty Grove's 1930-33? In fact, look at Grove's WAR for pitchers from 1930-1937, or even 1928-1937. NOBODY touches that dominance, not even a roided-up Clemens. Take what Grove did during the biggest hitter's era until the late 90's and move him into the pitching-friendly 60's, and he'd crush anyone.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I have an issue with the "irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever" statement. Why is Koufax' 4 years better than Lefty Grove's 1930-33? In fact, look at Grove's WAR for pitchers from 1930-1937, or even 1928-1937. NOBODY touches that dominance, not even a roided-up Clemens. Take what Grove did during the biggest hitter's era until the late 90's and move him into the pitching-friendly 60's, and he'd crush anyone.

Johnson and Alexander had some unbelievable 4 year stretches that I would bet rival Koufax statistically. on an era adjusted basis

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Johnson and Alexander had some unbelievable 4 year stretches that I would bet rival Koufax statistically. on an era adjusted basis

Agreed. What I would give to go back 100 years ago, when Walter and Old Pete were absolutely dominating baseball.

[packs]

Don't forget the dominance of Big Ed Walsh either. From 1908 to 1912 he won 127 games with a 1.71 ERA and gave up 400 less hits than innings pitched.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tedzan

YOGI BERRA

WHITEY FORD

SANDY KOUFAX

WILLIE MAYS



TED Z
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
Still searching for these 4 cards to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)
.

Yogi over Aaron???

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by rats60

That's your opinion. I was able to watch Koufax pitch. He was the best I've ever seen. His performance over those 4-5 seasons along with his brilliance in the post season make it easy for me to say he was the best pitcher of the modern era and the greatest lefty of all time.

You simply can't use JAWS for Koufax. First of all, bringing up his early years makes me question your knowledge of baseball history. In 1954, the Dodgers signed a player named Roberto Clemente as a bonus baby. Because they sent him to the minors, the Pirates were able to draft him that fall from the Dodgers. So, when the Dodgers signed Sandy Koufax in 1955, they weren't going to repeat that mistake. Koufax couldn't be sent to the minors. Unlike Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, etc. , Koufax couldn't develop pitching against weak competition, he had to pitch against the best and his stats suffered.

Second, we don't know what Koufax would have done after 1966. He didn't have access to the modern medicine of today and chose to retire in his prime. There is no doubt in my mind that if he had chosen career over long term health, he would have continued to be the best pitcher in baseball, winning Cy Youngs, MVPS and World Championships and this wouldn't even be a debate.

Never said he wasn't the best pitcher at his best....unquestionably the best peak value pitcher ever. But when iconic pitchers such as Seaver, Maddux, Johnson and Palmer, just to mention a few are performing at a superior level for 10-15 years, a 5 year pitcher cannot be rated ahead of them.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I have an issue with the "irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever" statement. Why is Koufax' 4 years better than Lefty Grove's 1930-33? In fact, look at Grove's WAR for pitchers from 1930-1937, or even 1928-1937. NOBODY touches that dominance, not even a roided-up Clemens. Take what Grove did during the biggest hitter's era until the late 90's and move him into the pitching-friendly 60's, and he'd crush anyone.

In that 4 year period, Koufax averaged an ERA of approximately 1.90 along with 300+ strikeouts a year! Not even Grove posted numbers like that at his best. However, you make a SUPER point regarding the fact Grove's great seasons were during a hitters era vs. Koufax's prime being in a pitcher's era. Very Interesting!

[scottglevy]

Kind of a shame that none of the newer folks make a compelling enough case to be strongly considered for this list ... with the exception of Maddux or as a stretch Jeter IMO.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by rats60

That's your opinion. I was able to watch Koufax pitch. He was the best I've ever seen. His performance over those 4-5 seasons along with his brilliance in the post season make it easy for me to say he was the best pitcher of the modern era and the greatest lefty of all time.

You simply can't use JAWS for Koufax. First of all, bringing up his early years makes me question your knowledge of baseball history. In 1954, the Dodgers signed a player named Roberto Clemente as a bonus baby. Because they sent him to the minors, the Pirates were able to draft him that fall from the Dodgers. So, when the Dodgers signed Sandy Koufax in 1955, they weren't going to repeat that mistake. Koufax couldn't be sent to the minors. Unlike Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, etc. , Koufax couldn't develop pitching against weak competition, he had to pitch against the best and his stats suffered.

Second, we don't know what Koufax would have done after 1966. He didn't have access to the modern medicine of today and chose to retire in his prime. There is no doubt in my mind that if he had chosen career over long term health, he would have continued to be the best pitcher in baseball, winning Cy Youngs, MVPS and World Championships and this wouldn't even be a debate.

Question my knowledge of baseball? Where did that come from genius? Fyi, Tom Seaver spent ONE season in AAA before being called up by the WORST team in baseball and won an incredible 16 games with a very bad '67 Mets team. It took Koufax 7 seasons to figure it out. If you can pitch, you can pitch. Bob Feller came to the majors virtually right out of high school and was blowing away hitters his first season.....your serve!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Question my knowledge of baseball? Where did that come from genius? Fyi, Tom Seaver spent ONE season in AAA before being called up by the WORST team in baseball and won an incredible 16 games with a very bad '67 Mets team. It took Koufax 7 seasons to figure it out. If you can pitch, you can pitch. Bob Feller came to the majors virtually right out of high school and was blowing away hitters his first season.....your serve!!!

If memory serves Dwight Gooden was tearing through major league batters at a very tender age. I hardly think Koufax's career path can be attributed to not being in the minors. It took him until his 7th year to find his control, reportedly because someone -- one of the catchers -- finally figured out he was overthrowing.

[glynparson]

Barry Bonds, Ken Griffey Jr. , Willie Mays, Hank Aaron

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

It goes back to how you judge them. The value over the career was greater for Marichal than Koufax as he won 100 more games (nearly) and had a better win percentage on teams that were not as successful. He was not popular, both because of his nationality and deportment and the fact that he wrapped a bat around John Roseboro's head. That contributed to his poor showing in popularity contests. If you want to make the argument the Koufax was better over a short period of time and Marichal was better over a long period of time, I have no beef with that.

Marichal may have accumulated more counting stats because Koufax retired at a younger age. I don't equate that with being better over a long period of time. Koufax in his short career led the league in far more catagories and more times than Marichal. Marichal for his whole career only led the league in wins 1 1/2 times, era 1 time, Ks 0 times, FIP 0 times, WHIP 2 times. Only 1 no hitter, 0 Cy Youngs, highest MVP finish 5th, 0 World Championships, 0 World Series MVPs. I don't see the value. I think voters were more swayed by his on field performance than his nationality or the Roseboro incident.

Koufax's teams were more successful because Koufax was so great. Marichal had Mays, McCovey, Cepeda and Perry as teammates, but came up short vs. Koufax and Drysdale. They only overcame the Dodgers in 62 when Koufax injured his hand in July, missed 2 months and was ineffective pitching injured in September.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Marichal's 63-66 is obviously a little short of Koufax's, but by surprisingly little if you look at up. He won 94 games in that stretch compared to 97 for Koufax, and his ERA and WAR while not as good are not that far short either.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by scottglevy

Kind of a shame that none of the newer folks make a compelling enough case to be strongly considered for this list ... with the exception of Maddux or as a stretch Jeter IMO.

I think a lot of this has to do with nostalgia. Pedro had a sub 2 ERA in the year 2000, a year with the highest amount of run production since I believe the 30s. He had an ERA+ of almost 300. Rickey is first all time in steals and runs, while being second in walks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

I think a lot of this has to do with nostalgia. Pedro had a sub 2 ERA in the year 2000, a year with the highest amount of run production since I believe the 30s. He had an ERA+ of almost 300. Rickey is first all time in steals and runs, while being second in walks.

But for steroids, Bonds and ARod and maybe Pujols would merit very serious consideration as just as good as Mays and Aaron etc. Griffey too if he hadn't fallen off the cliff quite so young. So I don't think it's only nostalgia but the steroid era.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Question my knowledge of baseball? Where did that come from genius? Fyi, Tom Seaver spent ONE season in AAA before being called up by the WORST team in baseball and won an incredible 16 games with a very bad '67 Mets team. It took Koufax 7 seasons to figure it out. If you can pitch, you can pitch. Bob Feller came to the majors virtually right out of high school and was blowing away hitters his first season.....your serve!!!

And Tom Seaver went straight from high school to one season in the minors to the Mets? Could have fooled me. I thought he pitched in college for USC. I guess you don't know as much as you thought or were you just being deceptive thinking I didn't know that?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by rats60

And Tom Seaver went straight from high school to one season in the minors to the Mets? Could have fooled me. I thought he pitched in college for USC. I guess you don't know as much as you thought or were you just being deceptive thinking I didn't know that?

In fairness, you just made up the part about Seaver going straight from high school to the minors.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yogi over Aaron???

Peter

I can never tell when you're serious, or just jiving ?


Anyhow, Yogi is first in my book.

Tell me....what other living BB player has contributed more to the success of his team than Yogi ?

Yeh....go ahead and check-out the stats of other players currently living....then compare.

I don't have to waste my time searching thru numbers....for I'm fortunate to be old enough to have seen Yogi play from 1947 to 1963.
And, trust me I saw many, many Yankees games over those 17 years.

Furthermore, I followed the Milwaukee Braves from 1954 thru 1964. They were my favorite NL team when I was young.

From a young kid, I have always contended, that for the most part, the key to a Championship team is a "super-star" catcher.
And, Yogi's all-around performance exemplifies this.



TED Z
.

[earlywynnfan]

Only slightly off-topic:

Had sports talk radio on the other night, which I almost never listen to because, well, the callers are all idiots who clearly don't know as much as me!

So they were choosing the Top 4 from each team's history. Finally, an interesting topic. The broadcaster throws out 8 names, you have to pick 4. When I turned it on someone was putting out a case for Jack Morris, which was fun.

Then a caller wants to talk Twins/Senators: "Bert Blyleven." Announcer agrees. "Rod Carew" duh, check. "Harmon Killebrew." Check. Now, I'm not expecting this guy to know about Goose Goslin or Sam Rice, but he next says "Joe Mauer." The broadcaster says "Hold it right there, aren't you forgetting Walter Johnson?" "Yeah, I know about him, I just love Mauer." THIS IS WHEN I PUNCH MY DASHBOARD!!!


Sorry, just had to share that.