Graded Spalding Cut out Pictures/Revisited

[ullmandds]

Just saw this Spalding cut out graded by Beckett...does anyone know how long becket has been encasing them? Atleast they label them more accurately than psa.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-Spaldin...item417aa8baea

[daves_resale_shop]

No idea...

But I will say that the pricing on this one is ridiculous... you can find the New Orleans photo (not common-if you look for it), taken out of the guide in the $50-75 range...

[bcbgcbrcb]

If you look a little, you can find a complete guide for the higher end of that estimate.

[drcy]

If they're correctly labelled, they're correctly labelled. Though I'd prefer the word 'page' be on the label.

[drcy]

The grading director at Beckett once told me they will holder anything you give them that fits in a holder. As long as it's labelled accurately, that's fine. I believe he gave that answer after I asked if they would holder someone's own snapshots he shot at a baseball game he attended.

No, I never said I was for the cutting up of old baseball guides. Because I'm not.

And I meant within reason. I don't believe Beckett will authenticate a cheese sandwich with a Jesus image, even if it fits in a holder. Maybe if it's Babe Ruth.

[Leon]

As has been said, as long as they label them correctly i don't think it's a big deal. I don't know when the started grading them.
I can't believe someone would pay that kind of price for that item but I have seen worse. As a matter of fact I have that same picture from a smaller guide and bought it as a non graded cut out. I think I paid about $10 shipped for it. I wanted it to go with something else I have. They have a place in the hobby, to me, but it's not in the hundreds of dollars range place .

[barrysloate]

One of the problems of slabbing these cutouts is it may afford them a status they don't deserve. The slab might give someone the impression that they are closely related to baseball cards, and worthy of standing alone. As such, they should conceivably command a high price in the marketplace. Fact is, they are just pages torn out of a book, and while attractive are virtually worthless. Remember, there are always beginners out there who can be easily fooled.

That, and the fact they are destroying these guides, rankles me.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I am opposed to grading something (actually I am opposed to grading period) that has been destroyed but in the case of some of the old Spalding and Reach Guides, many are offered in rough shape or in pieces.

I keep a chart on eBay prices and you can find a beat up 1909 for under $50 quite often. Like Phil offered a VG copy with covers can be had for $75 or so.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

One of the problems of slabbing these cutouts is it may afford them a status they don't deserve. The slab might give someone the impression that they are closely related to baseball cards, and worthy of standing alone. As such, they should conceivably command a high price in the marketplace. Fact is, they are just pages torn out of a book, and while attractive are virtually worthless. Remember, there are always beginners out there who can be easily fooled.

That, and the fact they are destroying these guides, rankles me.

I quit trying to save the world from making bad decisions. If someone wants to buy a cutout that is labeled as a cutout more power to them. I do understand the debate, which is that it sort of "legitimatizes" them but if labeled correctly then people need to be smart enough to know it's only a page from a book. BTW, I have some Supplements I like quite a bit. Here is a larger Supplement that I bought the smaller cut out to go with...It is approximatly 11 x 15, quite large...

[ksfarmboy]

Leon, that larger photo was cut out of a book too.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ksfarmboy

Leon, that larger photo was cut out of a book too.

I am aware of it. I shouldn't have really called it a Supplement though it's quite large. It was taken from a large folio magazine. It was under $90 and would look great framed. I don't think I overpaid for it but if I did it isn't in the top 1000 financial mistakes I have made. All that matters to me is that I knew what I was buying and was happy with the price.

[nolemmings]

One of the problems of slabbing these cutouts is it may afford them a status they don't deserve. The slab might give someone the impression that they are closely related to baseball cards, and worthy of standing alone. As such, they should conceivably command a high price in the marketplace. Fact is, they are just pages torn out of a book, and while attractive are virtually worthless. Remember, there are always beginners out there who can be easily fooled.

That, and the fact they are destroying these guides, rankles me.

Very well put.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Leon

I quit trying to save the world from making bad decisions. If someone wants to buy a cutout that is labeled as a cutout more power to them. I do understand the debate, which is that it sort of "legitimatizes" them but if labeled correctly then people need to be smart enough to know it's only a page from a book. BTW, I have some Supplements I like quite a bit. Here is a larger Supplement that I bought the smaller cut out to go with...It is approximatly 11 x 15, quite large...

Hey Leon- I tend to agree somewhat that if somebody wants to buy them they are free to do so. But the person likely to pay several hundred dollars for one of these cutouts probably is doing so in error, thinking they are worth more than they really are. If you tried to sell just the cutout without the slab, you might get five or ten bucks for it. But put it in a slab, it suddenly becomes something else. Yes, anyone can buy anything he wants, but the grading companies should reject them as not slabbable.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hey Leon- I tend to agree somewhat that if somebody wants to buy them they are free to do so. But the person likely to pay several hundred dollars for one of these cutouts probably is doing so in error, thinking they are worth more than they really are. If you tried to sell just the cutout without the slab, you might get five or ten bucks for it. But put it in a slab, it suddenly becomes something else. Yes, anyone can buy anything he wants, but the grading companies should reject them as not slabbable.

If you were the President of the company slabbing them you might see things differently. We can agree to disagree on this one .

[barrysloate]

I think the grading companies have certain responsibilities, since we know that putting cards in holders with labels is a form of minting money. You change a label from a 6 to a 7 you've just created wealth. You take a worthless cutout and put it in a slab you've done the same. Hopefully the companies will take this responsibility seriously.

We had a thread a few weeks back where somebody posted a newspaper clipping of Nolan Ryan, from a 1966 Sporting News, that was slabbed and subsequently sold for $750. Take it out of the slab and it's worth fifty cents. We are all entitled to our opinion but mine is I don't like it.

Yes, we will most definitely disagree on this one.

[drcy]

I agree with Barry in that I don't like the idea of people tearing out pictures from old publications to have them graded.

But if it's already torn out and the grader accurately labels, I won't blame them.

In case any of you missed it, there was/is a big date from PSA collectors because PSA graded several Nolan Ryan 'Pre-Rookie' pictures cut out from a 1966 Sporting News magazine, and included it as part of the Nolan Ryan registry. As a result, a PSA graded Mint 10 '1966 Sporting News Ryan handcut' sold for about $700 recently! You'll be relieved to know that, while they didn't it as sign of a the hobby apocalypse, many PSA collectors on the CU board thought grading a cut out magazine picture as if it was a quasi-card was highly dubious and opened a can of worms. One joked that the PSA 10 example sold for about $699 too much. Even the PSA registry loyalists wondered how such a thing could be included as required part of a player registry.

Oh, and in 'AAA graded 10 Putnam Dictionary Babe Ruth' fashion-- the 1966 Sporting News Ryan has a partial article on back and you can even the text through the front.

[ethicsprof]

There was a time when the vintage grading card companies filled an okay niche in the hobby,particularly once fraud took its hold on much of our beloved avocation. Now I worry a bit
about the speed with which they are sliding down weird slippery slopes by grading and authenticating items which often trap the novices and are unnecessary at best and solely motivated by profit and greed at worst. Some years back I had everything graded. In recent years, I've sent nothing in. I'm wary of this weird slippery slope. I understand full well that businesses inherently live to make a profit but I would hope that they would remember that they are often
also a service offered to the one and the many. I'd like to see the TPG companies wrestle with this before the weird slippery slope becomes not weird but usual and the service inexorably and irrevocably tainted. IMHO

all the best,
barry

[bgar3]

Apparently grading them gives them credibility and value to some people. i personally do not get it, and hate that, in some cases, books are being destroyed. but, as someone once said, "concerning taste no arguing is". I can't wait to see a xerox copy of the Nolan Ryan news photo, in a limited edition card 1 of 1, hand made, encased in plastic with a number on it. WOW.
By the way, Leon your New Orleans team photo came from a book not a magazine, THE BOOK OF BASEBALL, by Patten and Mcspadden, 1911, pages 115-116.

[maniac_73]

I think it just goes back to something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bgar3

By the way, Leon your New Orleans team photo came from a book not a magazine, THE BOOK OF BASEBALL, by Patten and Mcspadden, 1911, pages 115-116.

Thanks, I appreciate the correction. I would hope the page I have came from a book that was not worth saving otherwise. Even though I don't have a problem with correctly grading them I do generally take issue with cutting up any historical items (unless they are already ruined).

[edhans]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

One of the problems of slabbing these cutouts is it may afford them a status they don't deserve. The slab might give someone the impression that they are closely related to baseball cards, and worthy of standing alone. As such, they should conceivably command a high price in the marketplace. Fact is, they are just pages torn out of a book, and while attractive are virtually worthless. Remember, there are always beginners out there who can be easily fooled.

That, and the fact they are destroying these guides, rankles me.

+1

[Exhibitman]

An accurately labeled cutout listed as authentic isn't going to collapse the industry...

My collecting interests have always run towards the offbeat items, so I am perhaps a bit more receptive to grading co's slabbing non-traditional items than others, but I also remember that on the great spectrum of hobby weirdness what we do isn't that recently mainstreamed. In 1976, for example, my mother wanted to kick my father's @$$ for lending me $45 to buy 1952 and 1953 Topps Mays cards at a show in NYC. When I was a kid, collecting cards was something that only a small group of oddballs did--people would hand me boxes of old cards happily to free up garage and attic space. And even I never thought to save the wrappers and the boxes from the cards I was buying at the local candy store...I just bought a 1975 box [thanks Larry] to replace the two I threw away in 1975. Even now, planning my trip for the National, some people still look at me like I'm from Mars or something when I say I am spending my summer vacation in Cleveland collecting baseball cards.

The Hobby evolves as different items interest different people. Look at the last several years at how vintage photos have come into the mainstream in the Hobby. Yes, TPGs slabbing non-card items legitimizes cut-outs to some extent, but the funny thing to me is that it has taken so long for sports collectors to start in on that sort of vintage paper ephemera. Collecting items clipped from periodicals is a big part of other paper collecting fields. At a paper collectibles show I attend there are usually a couple of vendors whose entire inventories are cuts from old magazines and books. I am not seeing how TPG encapsulation of oddball items diminishes the card collecting end of things. Has anyone's 1968 Topps Ryan lost value because PSA slabbed a cutout? Will the Joe Jackson New Orleans team shot that started this thread lead anyone not to pick up a CJ Jackson? If not, what's the harm? As long as the buyer has the information necessary to understand the purchase, no harm is done, and if someone wants their item encapsulated, as long as it is accurately listed on the flip, again, no harm. My feeling is that it is just as likely that items like the ones in question can serve as 'gateway' items to more mainstream card collecting.

I readily admit to some personal bias in this: I have a number of pieces that were parts of newspapers, magazines and/or books. Sometimes they are the only realistic way to collect items issued during the careers of the athletes involved. Early 19th century copper plate engravings of boxers from Pierce Egan's Boxiana book. Might look nice in a Beckett slab...







Other times they are nice additions to a player run.



Regardless, I am not comfortable telling people how to enjoy their collecting.

[JLange]

As far as collecting goes, I generally draw the line at items removed from a book, magazine, or newspaper that are clearly just part of the article/story. That said, if the author or editor intended for these items to be removed, as is the case with many of the paper items in the hobby, then I am perfectly fine with them being cut out and even slapped, even if that meant destroying the rest of the item. Anything at all with dotted lines and instructions to cutout to collect or save for one's scrapbook would be fine by me. These spalding pages don't fit the bill in my book.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Leon

If you were the President of the company slabbing them you might see things differently. We can agree to disagree on this one .

They won't slab a skinned Old Judge, but they'll slab a cutout from a Spalding Guide...in what universe does that make sense?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

One of the problems of slabbing these cutouts is it may afford them a status they don't deserve. The slab might give someone the impression that they are closely related to baseball cards, and worthy of standing alone. As such, they should conceivably command a high price in the marketplace. Fact is, they are just pages torn out of a book, and while attractive are virtually worthless. Remember, there are always beginners out there who can be easily fooled.

That, and the fact they are destroying these guides, rankles me.

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

There was a time when the vintage grading card companies filled an okay niche in the hobby,particularly once fraud took its hold on much of our beloved avocation. Now I worry a bit
about the speed with which they are sliding down weird slippery slopes by grading and authenticating items which often trap the novices and are unnecessary at best and solely motivated by profit and greed at worst. Some years back I had everything graded. In recent years, I've sent nothing in. I'm wary of this weird slippery slope. I understand full well that businesses inherently live to make a profit but I would hope that they would remember that they are often
also a service offered to the one and the many. I'd like to see the TPG companies wrestle with this before the weird slippery slope becomes not weird but usual and the service inexorably and irrevocably tainted. IMHO

all the best,
barry

I totally agree with both Barry's (Sloate and Arnold).

I have quite a few of the Spalding and Reach Guides (1905 - 1912) in nice condition. Now, should I go "whacko"; and, cut the pages out of these books that have pictures
of Joe Jackson (or Ty Cobb, or Christy Mathewson, or Cy Young, etc.) and submit them to get "plasticized" ? Then try to sell them for ridiculous prices ? ?

I don't think so !


Consider this.....if I don't get them plasticized.....but, simply cut them out and try to sell these pictures "raw". Does anyone on this forum think that I'll find buyers willing to
pay several 100's of dollars for them ? Not if they are sober and of sound mind

Now let's consider this......for example take my 1949 LEAF Babe Ruth card. Obviously it's ungraded, but I would have no problem selling it for several 100's of dollars. Should
I get this Ruth plasticisized....then it's not unrealistic for me to expect to sell it for 1000+ dollars.

My point here is, that this Ruth card has at least 30 years of established increasing value, whereas the picture pages from out of 100+ year old sports publications (whose
market value is only $75) do not.

P.S......It will be interesting to see if this ebay seller sells this picture in 3 days ?


TED Z

[Leon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

They won't slab a skinned Old Judge, but they'll slab a cutout from a Spalding Guide...in what universe does that make sense?

I am not positive but I believe Beckett grades skinned cards. Of course I have no issue with the grading of those either as long as they are labeled correctly (with transparency).

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by JLange

As far as collecting goes, I generally draw the line at items removed from a book, magazine, or newspaper that are clearly just part of the article/story. That said, if the author or editor intended for these items to be removed, as is the case with many of the paper items in the hobby, then I am perfectly fine with them being cut out and even slapped, even if that meant destroying the rest of the item. Anything at all with dotted lines and instructions to cutout to collect or save for one's scrapbook would be fine by me. These spalding pages don't fit the bill in my book.

Jason, since all of our cards were meant to be played with by kids, and some [tattoos, transfers and stickers] were meant to be peeled or licked and stuck on things that would annoy parents and deface school property, I tend not to get too worried about manufacturers' intent. I certainly don't think anyone making a baseball card in 1933 expected them to be stored away in archival materials and cherished like holy relics.

Let's face it, we're all a bit eccentric about this thing of ours.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am not positive but I believe Beckett grades skinned cards. Of course I have no issue with the grading of those either as long as they are labeled correctly (with transparency).

Sorry, I should have been more specific...I was speaking of PSA which it looks like will now slab magazine/book cutouts.

[JLange]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Jason, since all of our cards were meant to be played with by kids, and some [tattoos, transfers and stickers] were meant to be peeled or licked and stuck on things that would annoy parents and deface school property, I tend not to get too worried about manufacturers' intent. I certainly don't think anyone making a baseball card in 1933 expected them to be stored away in archival materials and cherished like holy relics.

Let's face it, we're all a bit eccentric about this thing of ours.

Good point. I've been known to bend my own rules for collecting now and then. Especially if I really want the item, I'll find a way to make it work!

[baseballart]

Originally Posted by bgar3

Apparently grading them gives them credibility and value to some people. i personally do not get it, and hate that, in some cases, books are being destroyed. but, as someone once said, "concerning taste no arguing is". I can't wait to see a xerox copy of the Nolan Ryan news photo, in a limited edition card 1 of 1, hand made, encased in plastic with a number on it. WOW.
By the way, Leon your New Orleans team photo came from a book not a magazine, THE BOOK OF BASEBALL, by Patten and Mcspadden, 1911, pages 115-116.

Bruce

I concur entirely with your post. It particularly irks me when well-known sellers who know better refer to this New Orleans photo as coming from a "folio", implying it was meant to be removed from the book. Complete crap.

Max

[Leon]

Originally Posted by baseballart

Bruce

I concur entirely with your post. It particularly irks me when well-known sellers who know better refer to this New Orleans photo as coming from a "folio", implying it was meant to be removed from the book. Complete crap.

Max

For the record, I bought it from a very experienced hobbyist/dealer and he told me it came from a folio. I never knew it came from a book until this thread.

[aaroncc]

Adam, I collect the book plate engravings as well. I enjoy them too not enough to take them out of a book. But as you know there are quite a few Boxiana book plates around that makes it possible to collect without removing them ourselves. By the way couple years ago I got 3 Boxiana book plates put in Beckett slabs. Turns out I personally don't like them slabbed, but tried it out.

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

An accurately labeled cutout listed as authentic isn't going to collapse the industry...

My collecting interests have always run towards the offbeat items, so I am perhaps a bit more receptive to grading co's slabbing non-traditional items than others, but I also remember that on the great spectrum of hobby weirdness what we do isn't that recently mainstreamed. In 1976, for example, my mother wanted to kick my father's @$$ for lending me $45 to buy 1952 and 1953 Topps Mays cards at a show in NYC. When I was a kid, collecting cards was something that only a small group of oddballs did--people would hand me boxes of old cards happily to free up garage and attic space. And even I never thought to save the wrappers and the boxes from the cards I was buying at the local candy store...I just bought a 1975 box [thanks Larry] to replace the two I threw away in 1975. Even now, planning my trip for the National, some people still look at me like I'm from Mars or something when I say I am spending my summer vacation in Cleveland collecting baseball cards.

The Hobby evolves as different items interest different people. Look at the last several years at how vintage photos have come into the mainstream in the Hobby. Yes, TPGs slabbing non-card items legitimizes cut-outs to some extent, but the funny thing to me is that it has taken so long for sports collectors to start in on that sort of vintage paper ephemera. Collecting items clipped from periodicals is a big part of other paper collecting fields. At a paper collectibles show I attend there are usually a couple of vendors whose entire inventories are cuts from old magazines and books. I am not seeing how TPG encapsulation of oddball items diminishes the card collecting end of things. Has anyone's 1968 Topps Ryan lost value because PSA slabbed a cutout? Will the Joe Jackson New Orleans team shot that started this thread lead anyone not to pick up a CJ Jackson? If not, what's the harm? As long as the buyer has the information necessary to understand the purchase, no harm is done, and if someone wants their item encapsulated, as long as it is accurately listed on the flip, again, no harm. My feeling is that it is just as likely that items like the ones in question can serve as 'gateway' items to more mainstream card collecting.

I readily admit to some personal bias in this: I have a number of pieces that were parts of newspapers, magazines and/or books. Sometimes they are the only realistic way to collect items issued during the careers of the athletes involved. Early 19th century copper plate engravings of boxers from Pierce Egan's Boxiana book. Might look nice in a Beckett slab...







Other times they are nice additions to a player run.



Regardless, I am not comfortable telling people how to enjoy their collecting.

[drcy]

Folio implies the prints were stand alones, usually loose in the envelope, box or folder or otherwise loosely bound (such as with string) and intended to be removed as stand alones.

I bought a 1940s Toni Frissell (famous magazine photographer) folio she was hired to photograph, with the folio used to promote/advertise a Western railroad. Or maybe it was sold in the train's gift shop. It was a thin wide box of loose scenic prints, each intended as a display item. The prints themselves had no text except for her faux pre-printed signature at the bottom, but the cover of the box had a colorful graphics and text for the railroad. The complete boxed folio isn't rare-- they were available to the public--, but probably goes for around $1,000, maybe more. As I said, Frissell is a well known photographer, and vintage railroad advertising and memorabilia is popularly collected. I bought it because of the Frissell connection and already owned one or two of her original photos.

Today's trivia answer: Toni Frissell remains the only person to photograph covers for both Vogue and Sports Illustrated magazines. She's best known today as a 1930s-50s fashion photographer, but, in the 1950s, became the first female staff photographer at Sports Illustrated.

[baseballart]

Originally Posted by Leon

For the record, I bought it from a very experienced hobbyist/dealer and he told me it came from a folio. I never knew it came from a book until this thread.

Leon

I would think that your seller has some explaining to do

Max

[Leon]

Originally Posted by baseballart

Leon

I would think that your seller has some explaining to do

Max

Well, I bought it in a group so probably won't go back to him. As of yesterday, and I am sure today too, he still has at least one, if not more, of these same types (not exact same pic but from the same book) listed on ebay as coming from a portfolio. I consider it a learning experience as I do everything else. If I ever sell it I will make sure I list it as coming from the book it did. That book is quite an expensive book, I noticed, as I was doing some more research yesterday. Live and learn. And yes, of course, he should say where they really came from if he knows.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Leon

Well, I bought it in a group so probably won't go back to him. As of yesterday, and I am sure today too, he still has at least one, if not more, of these same types (not exact same pic but from the same book) listed on ebay as coming from a portfolio. I consider it a learning experience as I do everything else. If I ever sell it I will make sure I list it as coming from the book it did. That book is quite an expensive book, I noticed, as I was doing some more research yesterday. Live and learn. And yes, of course, he should say where they really came from if he knows.

It may have been removed from a book, but it looks frameworthy...I'd frame it up if I were you Leon.

[doug.goodman]

I think the grading companies have certain responsibilities...

Remember that the company that gets paid for their opinions that started this thread is the same company that has a "10" grade and a "collector's 10" grade, which are very much NOT the same thing.

Their "responsibility" to their profit margin is evidently the only one they put any "care" into.

The misleading of uneducated collectors is obviously a part of their business model.

Doug

[chaddurbin]

who knew NASA was ahead of the cut-out curve by 10 years!

[drcy]

That's what I've thought too. AAA and NASA has gained some retrospective legitimacy. In 25 years, history books will list them as pioneers of the hobby.