Babe Ruth?

[rscheck]

Originally Posted by travrosty

the "tell" is a myth. like mysinger said on the other site, it's an authenticators job to tell the difference and withholding oinf doesn't help the hobby. its a myth that forgers troll the sites looking for people who give them info on how to make better forgeries. they have genuine exemplars, they have eyes.

they are really spending hundreds of hours watching people talk about bob feller and willie mays so they can catch one phrase on an autograph for their improvement? it's ridiculous. they are too busy forging and trying to make $

the ticket shown looks like the u is over the capital R in Ruth, (something that babe would do, so it wouldn't rule it out just based on that) and the other that Chris says is the same work looks like the "uth" was signed first, then the R was signed last, as the R seems to overlap the u. (something babe would be unlikely to do and would rule it out in my opinion) how does the same guy do that on one and different on the other? frankly, if you compare each letter of each signature side by side, there are loads of differences.

again, i dont know if the autograph on the ticket is a forgery, but please explain how this other autograph matches it?

sorry for showing side by side comparisons and explaining stuff, i know it's frowned upon on this thread.

I believe this eloquently spoke to this.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Last time I post or reply in this thread:

Why is it that so many people on here are more than happy when they post an autograph and ask for an opinion from Chris or Richard about its authenticity and when they reply with Good or Bad, they are perfectly fine with that.....

But now they have no credibility

Chris, I believe has had the trust of many people on here. He has done a lot of great things. I think that is why this is very frustrating for people including myself.
However, Credibility is not a forever stamp.
I am sure he has his reasons for not adding to his thread for days. If it is simply an opinion, that is fine.. just state that. But to say it is absolute, there should be some proof. This is my opinion.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Last time I post or reply in this thread:

Why is it that so many people on here are more than happy when they post an autograph and ask for an opinion from Chris or Richard about its authenticity and when they reply with Good or Bad, they are perfectly fine with that.....

But now they have no credibility

Two different camps. There are probably a few who think certain people's opinions are infallible, but I haven't seen them questioning Chris or Richard's credibility in this thread.

David and Chris have a dispute, but if you ignore that, the main thrust of this thread is 'evidence', not credibility.

[David Atkatz]

Chris and Richard have masterfully painted themselves into a corner.
Either they are in possession of a magic "tell" (giving away the work of the mysterious "Michigan, forger") which they steadfastly refuse to share with hobby professionals, or, they got nothin'.

Either way, someone's full of it.

[Big Dave]

I hope the ticket sells for 10k+ and the buyer and seller are both happy with the transaction. The overall consensus, by a vast majority, is the autograph and ticket are authentic. I would believe that over any super secret bs being shoveled on here.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Runscott

David and Chris have a dispute, but if you ignore that, the main thrust of this thread is 'evidence', not credibility.

Claiming to have evidence, but refusing to share it with anyone, in order to a) help clean up the hobby, or b) simply show that you're not full of sh*t, goes directly to a person's credibility, Scott.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Claiming to have evidence, but refusing to share it with anyone, in order to a) help clean up the hobby, or b) simply show that you're not full of sh*t, goes directly to a person's credibility, Scott.

Agreed, but I think the OP was referring to the credibility of Chris' opinion on whether or not a signature is authentic.

[Runscott]

...but thinking ahead, if Chris at some point presents evidence that the ticket and/or provenance or fraudulent, then we would have to deal with the authenticity of the signature. Certainly someone could have forged a Ruth signature on a good ticket, but if the ticket is bad, then the signature is bad.

Which is why the 'tell' is irrelevant at this point.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Agreed, but I think the OP was referring to the credibility of Chris' opinion on whether or not a signature is authentic.

If the OP is me, that is not the case I value Chris' opinion as well as many other's on this board.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Runscott

...but thinking ahead, if Chris at some point presents evidence that the ticket and/or provenance or fraudulent, then we would have to deal with the authenticity of the signature.

At some point? The auction ends tonight!

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Runscott

...but thinking ahead, if Chris at some point presents evidence that the ticket and/or provenance or fraudulent, then we would have to deal with the authenticity of the signature. Certainly someone could have forged a Ruth signature on a good ticket, but if the ticket is bad, then the signature is bad.

Which is why the 'tell' is irrelevant at this point.

Isn't it possible that Ruth could have signed a ticket and then someone wante dto make it extra special and make it his 700th? I know a stretch but possible right? That is, unless the entire ticket is a forgery.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

If the OP is me, that is not the case I value Chris' opinion as well as many other's on this board.

I don't remember who it was. This is one of those threads where you don't want to have to go back and look for anything - it must be a good read, though, or we wouldn't have so many people popping in and stating that they just got through reading the entire thing.

I've enjoyed it so much that I made a new pot of coffee before sitting down to read the last few pages Of course, that could still be the afterglow of watching the Astros dismantle the Mariners after all the trash-talk in the Seattle newspaper.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Of course, that could still be the afterglow of watching the Astros dismantle the Mariners after all the trash-talk in the Seattle newspaper.

Scott - I have respected your posts throughout Net54 but an Astros fan?
Wow,,, I thought it was bad for me being a Mets fan,,, but the Astros? .
I will have to look at your posts in a whole new light now .
You should try to find a major league team to root for.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Scott - I have respected your posts throughout Net54 but an Astros fan?
Wow,,, I thought it was bad for me being a Mets fan,,, but the Astros? .
I will have to look at your posts in a whole new light now .
You should try to find a major league team to root for.

Like the Tribe!! The didn't lose to the yankees last night, it's like a victory! (And if it rains again today, chalk up another non-loss in the, uh, well, some column!)

Ken

[Frozen in Time]

I originally joined this forum because of my interest in vintage photos. After a couple of years viewing numerous threads I was very pleased with the amount of new information regarding this topic (and others) that were covered. In particular I have valued very much the free exchange of ideas, different views and new perspectives that have been shared with friends like Jimmy and Ben via PMs. I have enjoyed these interactions very much and have learned a lot!

I guess I was spoiled by the positive and sharing environment that existed with the vintage photo community (and many others on this forum), because many of the autograph threads that I have read, and this one in particular, pale in comparison from a sharing/learning experience point of view.

Yes, I have learned a lot about Mantle autos (mostly from a few kind individuals who were willing to PM some very helpful criteria to look for) but for some reason many of the auto threads seem primarily to involve agendas, drama, egos and personal attacks. I realize that is often the price of admission and I'm fine with that, I just wish more of the "experts" would try to help novices like myself by sharing actual facts/evidence when it comes to a determination of authenticity. Otherwise, I don't see the point.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Like the Tribe!! The didn't lose to the yankees last night, it's like a victory! (And if it rains again today, chalk up another non-loss in the, uh, well, some column!)

Ken

Maybe they should do like they do in hockey, if it is tied after regulation time you don't lose (you are going to get at least 1 point), if baseball is tied after 9 innings they can play sudden death for 1 inning. And then, if still tied, have a HR hitting contest to decide the winner
Just kidding - I think that part of hockey is foolish. The shootout should be like the DH,,, get rid of it now.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Scott - I have respected your posts throughout Net54 but an Astros fan?
Wow,,, I thought it was bad for me being a Mets fan,,, but the Astros? .
I will have to look at your posts in a whole new light now .
You should try to find a major league team to root for.

That was cruel.

Yesterday I was wearing my Astros garb prior to the game, and one of our building janitors looked at me in surprise, and asked in broken English: "Are you REALLY an Astros fan?!?"

I guess being an Astros or Mets fan could explain some things - maybe having a sort of weird 'Napoleon complex' due to shortness of team?

[collectbaseball]

Does the signature on the ticket look like the ones that were almost undeniably signed by Ruth in 1934? (Seen in post #208)

[MooseDog]

Originally Posted by Frozen in Time

I guess I was spoiled by the positive and sharing environment that existed with the vintage photo community (and many others on this forum), because many of the autograph threads that I have read, and this one in particular, pale in comparison from a sharing/learning experience point of view.

Craig -

In case you haven't figured it out by now, autograph collectors are, to put it kindly, a little "different" than most collectors. I'll certainly put myself in this category.

Honestly I don't know why, but it is true. We take on projects we can never complete - like complete runs of signed trading cards, or everyone whoever played for a team or sport, knowing full well that there are no known examples of some autographs and such projects will never be completed. We argue over authenticity and who signs/who doesn't.

It was a very tight-knit community once, maybe back in the 1980s and before, we were shunned by the card collectors, despised by the memorabilia collectors but we got our kicks hanging out all day at ballparks and hotels and trading envelopes full of duplicates through the mail to people we never met. Yeah, we bought and sold too, ten cents a pop for commons and a Maris might run you $3.00.

I think there is also a bit of bitterness in us hard-core graphers. We all hate, absolutely hate the passing off of forgeries. For me, it was attending and selling at shows in the early 1990s, when guys I'd never seen at the ballparks or hotels suddenly had binders full of all the big names - Mantle, Dimaggio, Williams, Jordan, and bit nice looking sharpie signed pieces. Every card shop had signed stuff with COAs (from now discredited TPAs).

I could tell they were bad, but people kept buying them because they looked nice. At the time I didn't offer COA's and didn't think I needed to since I got nearly everything in person or from someone else who did.

Then the card shops started sending armies of kids out to the hotels and ballparks and ruined it for everyone.

And now, you have players charging upwards of $100 a signature and getting it.

I was priced out of the hobby long ago, I limit my collecting to the few (and new) A's, Seals and Sharks.

But I remember the older guys in the hobby who were always nice to me - Dick Dobbins, Stan Marks, Will Davis, Steve Brunner, Bill Zekus, Mike Wheat, Bill Corcoran, Ron Gordon, Doug McWilliams and Hall of Famer Nick Peters just to name a few...and I always feel a responsibility to follow their example and help out when I can.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is don't let the drama put you off, hard as that may be. Some of this stuff is like a soap opera, you hate yourself for watching/reading, but you want to see how it turns out.

Maybe some of us old-timers who are a little too quiet here should post about some of our experiences. I'm a little reluctant as Jim Stinson's stories and writing ability put mine to shame, but I'll have a go at it, assuming anyone want to hear about the "good old days".

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

Craig -

In case you haven't figured it out by now, autograph collectors are, to put it kindly, a little "different" than most collectors. I'll certainly put myself in this category.

Honestly I don't know why, but it is true. We take on projects we can never complete - like complete runs of signed trading cards, or everyone whoever played for a team or sport, knowing full well that there are no known examples of some autographs and such projects will never be completed. We argue over authenticity and who signs/who doesn't.

It was a very tight-knit community once, maybe back in the 1980s and before, we were shunned by the card collectors, despised by the memorabilia collectors but we got our kicks hanging out all day at ballparks and hotels and trading envelopes full of duplicates through the mail to people we never met. Yeah, we bought and sold too, ten cents a pop for commons and a Maris might run you $3.00.

I think there is also a bit of bitterness in us hard-core graphers. We all hate, absolutely hate the passing off of forgeries. For me, it was attending and selling at shows in the early 1990s, when guys I'd never seen at the ballparks or hotels suddenly had binders full of all the big names - Mantle, Dimaggio, Williams, Jordan, and bit nice looking sharpie signed pieces. Every card shop had signed stuff with COAs (from now discredited TPAs).

I could tell they were bad, but people kept buying them because they looked nice. At the time I didn't offer COA's and didn't think I needed to since I got nearly everything in person or from someone else who did.

Then the card shops started sending armies of kids out to the hotels and ballparks and ruined it for everyone.

And now, you have players charging upwards of $100 a signature and getting it.

I was priced out of the hobby long ago, I limit my collecting to the few (and new) A's, Seals and Sharks.

But I remember the older guys in the hobby who were always nice to me - Dick Dobbins, Stan Marks, Will Davis, Steve Brunner, Bill Zekus, Mike Wheat, Bill Corcoran, Ron Gordon, Doug McWilliams and Hall of Famer Nick Peters just to name a few...and I always feel a responsibility to follow their example and help out when I can.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is don't let the drama put you off, hard as that may be. Some of this stuff is like a soap opera, you hate yourself for watching/reading, but you want to see how it turns out.

Maybe some of us old-timers who are a little too quiet here should post about some of our experiences. I'm a little reluctant as Jim Stinson's stories and writing ability put mine to shame, but I'll have a go at it, assuming anyone want to hear about the "good old days".

I think more people than you think would love to hear about the old days, if you care to share. I enjoy hearing of collecting autos, even though I don't collect them, and would certainly enjoy any stories shared.

[travrosty]

I found the tell!!!

[Frozen in Time]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

Craig -

In case you haven't figured it out by now, autograph collectors are, to put it kindly, a little "different" than most collectors. I'll certainly put myself in this category.

Honestly I don't know why, but it is true. We take on projects we can never complete - like complete runs of signed trading cards, or everyone whoever played for a team or sport, knowing full well that there are no known examples of some autographs and such projects will never be completed. We argue over authenticity and who signs/who doesn't.

It was a very tight-knit community once, maybe back in the 1980s and before, we were shunned by the card collectors, despised by the memorabilia collectors but we got our kicks hanging out all day at ballparks and hotels and trading envelopes full of duplicates through the mail to people we never met. Yeah, we bought and sold too, ten cents a pop for commons and a Maris might run you $3.00.

I think there is also a bit of bitterness in us hard-core graphers. We all hate, absolutely hate the passing off of forgeries. For me, it was attending and selling at shows in the early 1990s, when guys I'd never seen at the ballparks or hotels suddenly had binders full of all the big names - Mantle, Dimaggio, Williams, Jordan, and bit nice looking sharpie signed pieces. Every card shop had signed stuff with COAs (from now discredited TPAs).

I could tell they were bad, but people kept buying them because they looked nice. At the time I didn't offer COA's and didn't think I needed to since I got nearly everything in person or from someone else who did.

Then the card shops started sending armies of kids out to the hotels and ballparks and ruined it for everyone.

And now, you have players charging upwards of $100 a signature and getting it.

I was priced out of the hobby long ago, I limit my collecting to the few (and new) A's, Seals and Sharks.

But I remember the older guys in the hobby who were always nice to me - Dick Dobbins, Stan Marks, Will Davis, Steve Brunner, Bill Zekus, Mike Wheat, Bill Corcoran, Ron Gordon, Doug McWilliams and Hall of Famer Nick Peters just to name a few...and I always feel a responsibility to follow their example and help out when I can.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is don't let the drama put you off, hard as that may be. Some of this stuff is like a soap opera, you hate yourself for watching/reading, but you want to see how it turns out.

Maybe some of us old-timers who are a little too quiet here should post about some of our experiences. I'm a little reluctant as Jim Stinson's stories and writing ability put mine to shame, but I'll have a go at it, assuming anyone want to hear about the "good old days".

Thank you very much!!! If the sincerity and tone that is so obvious in your post were adopted by other auto threads it would be a welcome addition. Perhaps it is the nature of the beast (I don't really collect autos, except for a few Mantles from years ago), but I also hate forgers in any segment of the hobby and I am just trying to learn as much as I can in this new(for me) area of collecting.

Let me join with Leon and say that I also would love to hear more about the "good old days".

Thanks again.

Craig

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by Frozen in Time

Thank you very much!!! If the sincerity and tone that is so obvious in your post were adopted by other auto threads it would be a welcome addition. Perhaps it is the nature of the beast (I don't really collect autos, except for a few Mantles from years ago), but I also hate forgers in any segment of the hobby and I am just trying to learn as much as I can in this new(for me) area of collecting.

Let me join with Leon and say that I also would love to hear more about the "good old days".

Thanks again.

Craig

Thank you to Craig and Moosedog for ending this thread on a high note.

[Shrine213]

Originally Posted by travrosty

I found the tell!!!

Is the tell that it looks completely authentic?

[Bestdj777]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think more people than you think would love to hear about the old days, if you care to share. I enjoy hearing of collecting autos, even though I don't collect them, and would certainly enjoy any stories shared.

+1

Moosedog, I would love to hear your stories, and I am sure a lot of the other collectors my age would feel the same.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Shrine213

Is the tell that it looks completely authentic?

i am not saying.

[JT]

Bid is at 12000

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=55190

Talk about what publicly can do for you.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Who the Michigan forger is...

[JT]

And the final bid was.......12,000.00

I'm happy for the consignor.

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=55190

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JT

And the final bid was.......12,000.00

I'm happy for the consignor.

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=55190

I didn't win it. Chris scared me from bidding

(just kidding - nobody sue me, please)

[Scott Garner]

Congrats to consigner rscheck on the final realized price for the Babe Ruth 700th HR ticket stub!

$12K is a great outcome for you.

Thanks to you and H & S's Josh Wulkan for coming on the board to share your side of the story.

[rscheck]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Congrats to consigner rscheck on the final realized price for the Babe Ruth 700th HR ticket stub!

$12K is a great outcome for you.

Thanks to you and H & S's Josh Wulkan for coming on the board to share your side of the story.

Thanks all. I do have to say it was an "interesting" experience. For those of you that were supportitive thanks.

[travrosty]

the circus is over. 12 grand, i guess the original poster didnt have the hobby resume for vintage baseball to sway anyone, along with the fact he didnt present any facts.

i still don't know if the autograph is good, but i have to see proof either way. he certainly threw spence at jsa and root at sgc under the bus and then disappeared.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I didn't win it. Chris scared me from bidding

(just kidding - nobody sue me, please)

You root for the Astros, why would anyone want to inflict more misery on you by suing you .
Ouch, I know that one hurt .

[cubsfan-budman]

"The truth is out there"...somewhere.

Congrats to the consignor.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

"The truth is out there"...somewhere.

Congrats to the consignor.

haha, yes

[GrayGhost]

Ok, the item sold, the consignor and H and S realized nice dollars, and I'd say the winning bidder will love his item.

Do you guys need to continue the pot shots and childish posts and pictures? Just am wondering.

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

Ok, the item sold, the consignor and H and S realized nice dollars, and I'd say the winning bidder will love his item.

Do you guys need to continue the pot shots and childish posts and pictures? Just am wondering.

No offense, but how is this any different from David Atkatz getting pot shots thrown at him a year and a half later?

[Shoeless Moe]

Is there a chance Chris was talking this smack and turns out he was the winning bidder?

It could be my new auction strategy.

[travrosty]

chris started the thread and couldnt close the deal. he tried to set everyone up so he could knock everything down and look like the hobby hero. he didnt pull it off so if he looks like something less than prince charming it's his own fault. This is thread number two he has done this and for what reason?

Like I said before, I didn't know if the ruth was good or bad, but he didn't provide any proof it was bad. It was all a waste, and no one else is to blame.

Lesson - don't start a thread you can't or aren't willing to back up.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Interesting comment posted by Roste on the HaulsOfShame website about the Babe Ruth signed 700th Homerun ticket.

HOS-TR2.jpg

[thetruthisoutthere]

The deal isn't done by a long shot.

I've been on the sidelines reading the name-calling and saving the screenshots for the day when I will address particular comments posted by a few members of Net54.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

The deal isn't done by a long shot.

I've been on the sidelines reading the name-calling and saving the screenshots for the day when I will address particular comments posted by a few members of Net54.

How long do we have to wait?

[David Atkatz]

Heeeee's baaaaack!

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

I've been on the sidelines reading the name-calling and saving the screenshots for the day when I will address particular comments posted by a few members of Net54.

So I guess we're all waiting for the second second coming!

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Interesting comment posted by Roste on the HaulsOfShame website about the Babe Ruth signed 700th Homerun ticket.

Attachment 96588

so what? having doubts about it and saying you know why its fake are two different things. i never said i had proof, you did, but you didnt close the deal. there is such thing as an authentication company giving out a "no opinion" as well. of course you know that but it doesn't make for good drama.

i never said it was real or fake. i didnt start the thread, you did. we have been waiting a long time. if you didnt have proof, why did you start the thread? obviously the proof didnt sway, jsa, sgc, or huggins and scott. "take my word for it" isn't proof.

[ss]

Couldn't agree more.

[rscheck]

[QUOTE=thetruthisoutthere;1120254]The deal isn't done by a long shot.

Contra Mr. Williams contra. The deal is done, and the check is cashed. To quote someone MUCH smarter than me, "you are a strange sad little man". You sit in your moms basement with your pasty white skin and you throw out comments about things you know nothing about (and yes Mr Williams, you knew NOTHING about this particular ticket). I am not sorry I am one of 9,833,360 people (go ahead look it up) who live in Michigan, one of whom would appear to be some forger you seem to know a great deal about (I am not him). I am not sorry, through my dad, I was fortunate enough to meet a woman that was kind. I realize in the world you live in these two completely unrelated events could never take place. The reality is the story I told is true. There are still people out there that believe in honor and integrity and if I thought for a moment this ticket/autograph wasn't real I would have pulled it from the auction myself. You see mr Williams not everyone is out there just to make a nickel (or in this case 214,000 of them). You offered up no proof, or evidence about anything you ELUDED to. Heritage never had the ticket in their possession prior to its sale, this other grading company that you mentioned never had the ticket in their possession to grade it before it went to H&S. These are facts.indisputable, hand on the Bible in court, facts. I offered to speak to you , you left ONE message and didn't have the decency to leave your phone number. I came on the forum and answered ALL questions that were asked and yet you continue to sit in your moms basement and pass judgement on me, a man you have never met. You also declined to pass along "information" that you supposedly had. If that's the kind of hobby you are involved in I will stick to running where people say good morning when they see each other and offer advise (okay sometimes its the wrong advise but their heart is in the right place).

Having said all of that I now feel better.

Thank you,

[GrayGhost]

[QUOTE=rscheck;1123692]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

The deal isn't done by a long shot.

Contra Mr. Williams contra. The deal is done, and the check is cashed. To quote someone MUCH smarter than me, "you are a strange sad little man". You sit in your moms basement with your pasty white skin and you throw out comments about things you know nothing about (and yes Mr Williams, you knew NOTHING about this particular ticket). I am not sorry I am one of 9,833,360 people (go ahead look it up) who live in Michigan, one of whom would appear to be some forger you seem to know a great deal about (I am not him). I am not sorry, through my dad, I was fortunate enough to meet a woman that was kind. I realize in the world you live in these two completely unrelated events could never take place. The reality is the story I told is true. There are still people out there that believe in honor and integrity and if I thought for a moment this ticket/autograph wasn't real I would have pulled it from the auction myself. You see mr Williams not everyone is out there just to make a nickel (or in this case 214,000 of them). You offered up no proof, or evidence about anything you ELUDED to. Heritage never had the ticket in their possession prior to its sale, this other grading company that you mentioned never had the ticket in their possession to grade it before it went to H&S. These are facts.indisputable, hand on the Bible in court, facts. I offered to speak to you , you left ONE message and didn't have the decency to leave your phone number. I came on the forum and answered ALL questions that were asked and yet you continue to sit in your moms basement and pass judgement on me, a man you have never met. You also declined to pass along "information" that you supposedly had. If that's the kind of hobby you are involved in I will stick to running where people say good morning when they see each other and offer advise (okay sometimes its the wrong advise but their heart is in the right place).

Having said all of that I now feel better.

Thank you,

Hopefully this is over now. Cloak and dagger stuff is getting old.