FAKE packs and an FBI Fraud Investigation: What would YOU do?

[glynparson]

Did not just get altered cards through psa but through all the grading companies including sgc and he posted proof on here with before and after pics.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

This is certainly a fascinating thread.

After reading the whole thread my take on the translation of events is as follows.

Pepis was a wax/cello pack dealer and expert. He allegedly knows the ins and outs and possibilities based on sequences and such.

Pepis submitted a number of his own packs over the years to PSA for resale purposes.

Throughout the course of time Pepis became disillusioned when he saw, what he thought were bad packs, in PSA holders.

In order to test the system himself, he rigged up a bunch of bad packs on his own. They passed at PSA. He went public with PSA's authentication short-comings, based on evidence he planted himself into the system.

Pepis kept those altered packs in his collection as evidence.

In response, PSA placed an alert on ALL packs Pepis had submitted to them over the years.........leaving collectors he had sold to, holding the bag.

I hope this is the case, and he hasn't actually sold any of his altered packs.

Excellent synopsis! Thank you for posting that.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Did not just get altered cards through psa but through all the grading companies including sgc and he posted proof on here with before and after pics.

I was thinking about that also.

The problem is nobody ever grades the graders and when some finally does and exposes problems, the motives are typically framed with an evil intent.

[Bpm0014]

One simple question that may help clear up a lot of things...black or white....yes or no: Did Pepis ever sell an altered pack??

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

One simple question that may help clear up a lot of things...black or white....yes or no: Did Pepis ever sell an altered pack??

+1

[Goodsport40]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

One simple question that may help clear up a lot of things...black or white....yes or no: Did Pepis ever sell an altered pack??

If he responds and claims he did not sell altered packs will anyone believe it?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Goodsport40

If he responds and claims he did not sell altered packs will anyone believe it?


Robert

It's post-war PSA stuff - probably most here won't care. There is plenty of pre-war card drama to keep most of us going, but call us if someone starts forging T206-era packs.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Runscott

It's post-war PSA stuff - probably most here won't care. There is plenty of pre-war card drama to keep most of us going, but call us if someone starts forging T206-era packs.

+1

The most shocking thing I've learned in this thread is that there's a market for 70's-80's cello packs.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by pepis

My oroginal intention was to write a story about the unopened packs
corruption ...

An honest request Jose: please hire fellow board member Barry Sloate to help with grammar before publishing the story. You will get a LOT more readers.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

+1

The most shocking thing I've learned in this thread is that there's a market for 70's-80's cello packs.

Put it in a plastic tomb, throw a number on it and encourage collectors to compete for the best number and it's instant gold.

[pepis]

The FBI investigation is over after going through my data on how some stars
shouldn't be on top of certain packs and taking a close look and examining packs that i passed by PSA, the agents agreed that they were pretty bad jobs
in my part and they were surprised they got authenticated and in fact graded
one of the agents went on to say that i proved that Steve Hart
is bad at his job and being bad at his job is not a crime.

[tkersting]

Can you disclose which packs were fabricated and did any leave your possession. This will help for those who own unopened PSA star packs. Thanks.

[MattyC]

What about all the packs you sold people-- both online via eBay and in off-eBay transactions?

[pepis]

Originally Posted by MattyC

What about all the packs you sold people-- both online via eBay and in off-eBay transactions?

Matty
i sold many graded packs to people (customers) in fact i sold you
a couple of them and when you found out about the FBI investigation
you acted like a scared boy and dump them to someone else, instead
of confronting me and PSA on the matter, as far as you know you sold bad packs to other people.

[Gmrson]

Originally Posted by pepis

one of the agents went on to say that i proved that Steve Hart is bad at his job and being bad at his job is not a crime.

Are you thinking you should be celebrated?

Also you haven't answered the question about passing along bogus packs into the hobby? Instead you hurl an insult at the person asking the question. I have nothing invested into this other than it sickens me to see fraud and cheating in a hobby I really enjoy. If these responses are all you can add why reignite the thread?

[MattyC]

Actually, Jose, of the two packs I bought from you, I sold both of them LONG BEFORE your activities and the FBI investigation became known, so I could buy an expensive card. And at the time I sold those packs, I was very torn about parting with them because they were among my favorite pieces.

Had I still owned them after this thread became known to me, I would have confronted both you and PSA.

The one time I suspected I had some altered items (trimmed cards in this case), I drove them down to Joe Orlando and PSA, and they reviewed them and bought them back to be destroyed. I didn't sell those cards I suspected were trimmed and instead got perhaps less from PSA because I care about my name in the hobby.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by pepis

Matty
i sold many graded packs to people (customers) in fact i sold you
a couple of them and when you found out about the FBI investigation
you acted like a scared boy and dump them to someone else, instead
of confronting me and PSA on the matter, as far as you know you sold bad packs to other people.

What a great guy..

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Corruption is a fact of life, but IMO this hobby seems to attract a disproportionate amount of people who are allergic to an honest day's work.

+1...well met, Jeff.

[deadballfreaK]

Wow. As a pretty new member to this board I had never read any of this. First thing that comes to my mind is I always considered unopened packs the easiest thing in the world to fake. Especially wax packs. A little heat and you could open and close em at will. Don't know much about cellos, beyond my time as a collector, but I expect they could be opened and closed and easily faked as well.

[MBMiller25]

FBI investigation concluded
The FBI investigation is over after going through my data on how some stars
shouldn't be on top of certain packs and taking a close look and examining packs that i passed by PSA, the agents agreed that they were pretty bad jobs
in my part and they were surprised they got authenticated and in fact graded
one of the agents went on to say that i proved that Steve Hart
is bad at his job and being bad at his job is not a crime.

The downfall of this world will be the lack of morality in men!

It's amazing to me how this goes from you creating FAKE cello packs, to a "Steve Hart" doesn't know how to do his job. Steve is probably the most honest individual in a hobby that's littered with filth and fraud, and you come on here and frankly go out of your way to make a statement like you have above about Steve not be good at his job. The fact that your trying to play this out like you're some sort of crusader makes me want to puke.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

"So - you invested our life savings in PSA-graded cello packs? WELL HERE'S ANOTHER FINE MESS YOU'VE GOTTEN US INTO!"

[pepis]

Originally Posted by tkersting

Can you disclose which packs were fabricated and did any leave your possession. This will help for those who own unopened PSA star packs. Thanks.

Like i said earlier in the thread all the packs that i personally altered and
got grated are still in my possession and all have clear signs of being
altered, the problem with young collectors is that they have no clue how
to id the real thing and counterfeiters on ebay keep making star packs
with certain stars that never came on top because of the manufacture
pattern and these fake packs keep making it into PSA holders for example
below i have a picture of a Mike Schmidt on top that i made one huge
problem Schmidt never came in the top section only the bottom and that
can be easily proven.






CU members aconite and daveG offered as much as $1250.00 for the pack since it is rare
sure it didn't come from topps if i was a scammer i would have never turn down that much money.

[pepis]

Here is one the FBI agent couldn't believe, a PSA 10?
besides the fact that Munson never came on top of a 1979 cello the back seal
has clear sloppy signs of being resealed.

[the 'stache]

After reading this whole thread, I feel the urge to take a second shower.

[Exhibitman]

So lemme see if I have this straight: The fact that the fraud was poorly perpetrated means it wasn't a crime because the TPG should have caught it? Makes perfect sense to me. I'll remember to do a really poor job of it next time I knock over a 7/11.

[CW]

I find it utterly and almost comically bizarre that rather than set up a website or mail-in guidebook in order to educate collectors about what to look for in manufacture patterns and pack sequencing, Jose would instead choose to create fake packs to slip by PSA in order to prove Steve Hart's inability to spot fakes, then allegedly sell them to unsuspecting customers for profit. ??? As if THAT will help the hobby and allow collectors to make educated decisions when buying these packs? ???? It simply does not compute. At least not to a sane person....

[HRBAKER]

It's an amazing hobby we have.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by CW

I find it utterly and almost comically bizarre that rather than set up a website or mail-in guidebook in order to educate collectors about what to look for in manufacture patterns and pack sequencing, Jose would instead choose to create fake packs to slip by PSA in order to prove Steve Hart's inability to spot fakes, then sell them to unsuspecting customers for profit. ??? As if THAT will help the hobby and allow collectors to make educated decisions when buying these packs? ???? It simply does not compute. At least not to a sane person....

Did Jose admit or was it ever proven that he sold the fake packs? In one of his recent posts, he claims all of the fake packs he graded are still in his possession.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Did Jose admit or was it ever proven that he sold the fake packs? In one of his recent posts, he claims all of the fake packs he graded are still in his possession.

I also read the same thing, that Jose still has the fake ( fraudulent ) packs. Good for him if he still has the packs, it does not sit well with me that he has made someone, Steve Hart, out to apparently be bad at their job. That is PSA's decision to make, as Steve's employer. Steve may, in fact, be very good at his job. Jose, you have NOTHING to be proud of or to gloat over. The way this has been handled by you is very dirty in my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The truth of the matter is that anybody skilled enough, be it in packs or cards, can get alterations past even the best of authenticators, especially given that they aren't operating crime labs but making low-tech judgments for short money. If Steve Hart catches most bad packs, then that is probably the most one can realistically hope for.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

I also read the same thing, that Jose still has the fake ( fraudulent ) packs. Good for him if he still has the packs, it does not sit well with me that he has made someone, Steve Hart, out to apparently be bad at their job. That is PSA's decision to make, as Steve's employer. Steve may, in fact, be very good at his job. Jose, you have NOTHING to be proud of or to gloat over. The way this has been handled by you is very dirty in my opinion.

Lou,
at some time last year Steve and i exchange several emails on the matter
and at the end i did offer to discuss it face to face so i could show him
his mistakes, but he elected not to and that was the last communication,
i have been a star pack dealer/collector since december 1969 which is
even before he was born,,,,,you would think i know what i'm talking about!

[CW]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Did Jose admit or was it ever proven that he sold the fake packs? In one of his recent posts, he claims all of the fake packs he graded are still in his possession.

I don't know what he has admitted or not admitted, but I did read this post from this thread. Judging from previous statements, and the fact that he was creating fake packs in the first place, I am not sure if I can trust either Jose's statements or his sanity at this point. I guess I can edit my post to say "allegedly" selling fake packs.

Originally Posted by pepis

Matty
i sold many graded packs to people (customers) in fact i sold you
a couple of them and when you found out about the FBI investigation
you acted like a scared boy and dump them to someone else, instead
of confronting me and PSA on the matter, as far as you know you sold bad packs to other people.

[martindl]

Interesting read.

Somewhere along the line it's alleged that the person grading the bogus packs was also selling packs that he himself graded. Is there hard proof of that?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by CW

I don't know what he has admitted or not admitted, but I did read this post from this thread. Judging from previous statements, and the fact that he was creating fake packs in the first place, I am not sure if I can trust either Jose's statements or his sanity at this point. I guess I can edit my post to say "allegedly" selling fake packs.

Yeah, this thread will never win any awards for coherency, and the second quote to Matty could be interpreted a number of ways, but if Jose did cooperate with the FBI, as he claims in Post #161, there doesn't seems to be any findings of wrongdoing on his part, but only the FBI allegedly admitting that clearly bad packs were graded and there was no crime in that.

[Gmrson]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Yeah, this thread will never win any awards for coherency, and the second quote to Matty could be interpreted a number of ways, but if Jose did cooperate with the FBI, as he claims in Post #161, there doesn't seems to be any findings of wrongdoing on his part, but only the FBI allegedly admitting that clearly bad packs were graded and there was no crime in that.

So I guess yet another question is did the FBI destroy the packs? Did Jose contact the FBI or someone else? I'm not sure how much the FBI wants people creating fake items to only say "I'm conducting my own investigation". I bet they hear that one alot.

All I know is I would never trust someone trying to create bogus items for any reasong. Why not just approach PSA if they see bad items and offer information to why they think it's fraudulent. That seems more an asset to this hobby than spending time creating fake items.

[Wite3]

Jose is starting to sound more and more like Peter Nash...

[oldjudge]

I'm late to the dance, but if all Jose did was to pass some bad packs by PSA with the intent being to show that they didn't know what they were doing, and never sold any of these packs, he did nothing wrong. In fact, he pointed out a weakness in the hobby. Sounds like the TV station that passed the bad autographs past some of the autograph authenticators a few years ago to show that they were error prone (at best). When will people learn that if they can't authenticate what they buy themselves, they shouldn't buy?

[ALR-bishop]

....do not seek advice on a matter with significant legal implications on a public bulletin board. Get professional attorney client legal advice.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Gmrson

So I guess yet another question is did the FBI destroy the packs? Did Jose contact the FBI or someone else? I'm not sure how much the FBI wants people creating fake items to only say "I'm conducting my own investigation". I bet they hear that one alot.

All I know is I would never trust someone trying to create bogus items for any reasong. Why not just approach PSA if they see bad items and offer information to why they think it's fraudulent. That seems more an asset to this hobby than spending time creating fake items.

I have no idea what has happened to the fake packs.

I think one major detail that Jose took issue with is that there there was a long thread on the CU Board that exposed the problem in December 2010. The issue then was that a 1973 Topps Cello pack had a 1974 or 1975 Topps wrapper. See Post #42 on this thread.

In typical fashion when grading problems surface, CU/PSA deleted the thread but I was able to recover it with the Google Cache feature, but now I see those links don't work anymore. See Post #91 on this thread. I'm now curious to know exactly how those Google Cache links were deleted? Did PSA contact Google? I believe Jose's point of doing all of this was to see if they fixed the problem during that two year period and it appears they didn't.

I also just noticed in this thread that at least one bad graded pack was supposedly listed on Ebay two years later in December 2012 (a month before this thread started). But the auction listing did mention the pack was bad. See Post #49 on this thread. It doesn't say exactly who the seller is, but I'm guessing it was Jose.

As I've been saying for years, someone needs to grade the graders, otherwise how else will we know how competent they are?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I'm late to the dance, but if all Jose did was to pass some bad packs by PSA with the intent being to show that they didn't know what they were doing, and never sold any of these packs, he did nothing wrong. In fact, he pointed out a weakness in the hobby. Sounds like the TV station that passed the bad autographs past some of the autograph authenticators a few years ago to show that they were error prone (at best). When will people learn that if they can't authenticate what they buy themselves, they shouldn't buy?

I, too, am late to the dance and I feel the same way you do. Like Jose, I also question Steve's knowledge in this hobby. Don't get me wrong, I truly believe he is a man of great integrity, but integrity and knowledge are two different things.

About 4 years or so ago, I bought a 1975 Topps wax tray from Steve in one of his eBay auctions. I got it for $3XX (I can't remember the exact amount, but it was over $300). I thought I got a really good deal because at the time he was selling them for like $500 (maybe more) on his BBCE website. I was going to leave it sealed, but temptation got the better of me and after a few months I decided to open it. The cellophane around the tray looked good, but when I opened the packs they were clearly resealed. A bunch of EX commons with creases, corner wear and wax/gum stains in on cards that were in the middle of the pack (nowhere near the gum). I wondered at the time how the cellophane could be resealed. Now, I guess I know. That put a bad taste in my mouth about unopened product and I don't collect that garbage anymore.

If none of the bogus packs were sold and nobody was defrauded, then I applaud Jose for his efforts. Thank you, Jose.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I have no idea what has happened to the fake packs.

I think one major detail that Jose took issue with is that there there was a long thread on the CU Board that exposed the problem in December 2010. The issue then was that a 1973 Topps Cello pack had a 1974 or 1975 Topps wrapper. See Post #42 on this thread.

In typical fashion when grading problems surface, CU/PSA deleted the thread but I was able to recover it with the Google Cache feature, but now I see those links don't work anymore. See Post #91 on this thread. I'm now curious to know exactly how those Google Cache links were deleted? Did PSA contact Google? I believe Jose's point of doing all of this was to see if they fixed the problem during that two year period and it appears they didn't.

I also just noticed in this thread that at least one bad graded pack was supposedly listed on Ebay two years later in December 2012 (a month before this thread started). But the auction listing did mention the pack was bad. See Post #49 on this thread. It doesn't say exactly who the seller is, but I'm guessing it was Jose.

As I've been saying for years, someone needs to grade the graders, otherwise how else will we know how competent they are?

Don,
i have a friend with much or the hole thread in a disk in pics
here you have a couple of very key pictures of the thread in which CU member maggyman uncovered the fact that the FAKE schmidt pack came from Steve Hart himself
he authenticated his own bogus pack had it graded by the Co. he works for and sold the fake pack himself and instead of coming clean and owning the mistake he tried
to covered up.

[jhs5120]

I'm fairly certain members of the CU board have purchased plenty of bad packs from Pepis, and many surfaced on eBay. I could be wrong, but there are still several members who are bitter with what Pepis did to them.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I'm fairly certain members of the CU board have purchased plenty of bad packs from Pepis, and many surfaced on eBay. I could be wrong, but there are still several members who are bitter with what Pepis did to them.

Jason, your comment is dumb and ignorant! how can you be fairly certain of something that nobody has any prove! and that is because it didn't happen,
however almost every CU member that collects graded packs does have bogus packs that came from different sources i've seen a few 1978 cellos w/Bench
on top for example and Bench never came on the top section and that is something that can be verified easily and a few members already know know
i'm right but they are to afraid to bring it to light because they would have to admit they learned it from me or my post
thank you for bringing the cu members bushing up
i did see that cpamike said he called me out he is one of the most respected
people on that board but here is something you don't need to be fairly certain
you can be absolutely certain that the rack pack in the picture CPAMIKE sold
about 3 weeks ago to an innocent collector is BOGUS and he knows that
in fact 3 weeks earlier he sold another bogus rack although that one was
graded by GAI so he figure he could hide behind that. see jason the truth
is in net54 and the BS in CU.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To paraphrase Fitzgerald, buying sealed packs is a matter of infinite hope.

[RGold]

Ella collected sealed packs?

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by RGold

Ella collected sealed packs?

No, F. Scott did.http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Barney-Pelty-Vertical-PSA-4-F-Scott-Fitzgerald-Stamp-on-Reverse-/271202412133?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item3f24ec6665

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by pepis

Jason,
thank you for bringing the cu members bushing up
i did see that cpamike said he called me out he is one of the most respected
people on that board but here is something you don't need to be fairly certain
you can be absolutely certain that the rack pack in the picture CPAMIKE sold
about 3 weeks ago to an innocent collector is BOGUS and he knows that
in fact 3 weeks earlier he sold another bogus rack although that one was
graded by GAI so he figure he could hide behind that. see jason the truth
is in net54 and the BS in CU.

You never addressed my concern (which is very telling to me). Have any of your bad packs entered the market?


According to several who have some of your jobs in their possession, the answer is yes.

You can keep circling the question, but most of us already know the answer.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Aloha Jose....Have any of your bad packs entered the market??

By the way I'm FBI...(From Big Island) Dave.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Originally Posted by pepis

Jason,
thank you for bringing the cu members bushing up
i did see that cpamike said he called me out he is one of the most respected
people on that board but here is something you don't need to be fairly certain
you can be absolutely certain that the rack pack in the picture CPAMIKE sold
about 3 weeks ago to an innocent collector is BOGUS and he knows that
in fact 3 weeks earlier he sold another bogus rack although that one was
graded by GAI so he figure he could hide behind that. see jason the truth
is in net54 and the BS in CU.

Jose, you're going to have to prove that CPAMike knew those packs were bad before you go throwing out accusations like that. Not cool.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Jose has "surfaced" on the post war side.