The Goodwin Plank and Magie are TRIMMED!

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Does this imply that the Green Cobb is insignificant?
or that it is properly numerically graded in your opinion?

I don't know what tools/techniques/technologies are used by a TPG to determine if trimming has occurred. Hell, unless someone took safety scissors to a card, I can't tell. But regarding the Green Cobb, can you truly say simply by looking at the scan that it's trimmed? That top left corner gives me some pause, but maybe it's just a slight diamond cut?

Note that there was another Cobb (Bat Off) in the same submission that was deemed Authentic (likely due to trimming). What did they see in the Bat Off that they missed in the Green?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by E93

The point is that for me the three previously known examples (two obvious printer scraps and a hand cut card in the '80's) are too small of a sample to draw a definitive conclusion.

...
JimB

'Three' isn't actually a sample size - it's 3/4 of the total known population. If there were known to be twenty and we could only see four, and they were all hand-cut, THEN you could use the 'sample size' argument, although 20% is a large sample, even in a population that small.

If we assume that there WERE twenty, but only these four survived, then we are assuming that ALL of the factory-cut ones are either undiscovered, or did not survive. Isn't it more likely that factory-issued cards would have survived, than 'scraps' such as these three? (plus the one in question).

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by t206hound

I don't know what tools/techniques/technologies are used by a TPG to determine if trimming has occurred. Hell, unless someone took safety scissors to a card, I can't tell. But regarding the Green Cobb, can you truly say simply by looking at the scan that it's trimmed? That top left corner gives me some pause, but maybe it's just a slight diamond cut?

Note that there was another Cobb (Bat Off) in the same submission that was deemed Authentic (likely due to trimming). What did they see in the Bat Off that they missed in the Green?

That isn't an angle cut at the top left corner, that is a blatant dog ear'd cut.

And yes an angle cut would be fine but the bottom edge would need a matching opposite angle cut. This wavey bottom edge on the Green Cobb is flat across.

[danmckee]

Actually, I could see these 2 being swapped! I could live with the bat off numerically and the Green Cobb is just mind boggling.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by danmckee

That isn't an angle cut at the top left corner, that is a blatant dog ear'd cut.

And yes an angle cut would be fine but the bottom edge would need a matching opposite angle cut. This wavey bottom edge on the Green Cobb is flat across.

Not always true. As far as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the bottom of this one:

[ullmandds]

i agree with you dan...with the top left and lower rt on that cobby as they appear...I believe it's trimmed.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Not always true. As far as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the bottom of this one:

Bottom may be ok Scott, maybe top got hacked down funky as it looks like it should be significantly larger all of the way across.

Maybe Ted Z or Jim Rivera or Tim Cathey the T206 experts could chime in here but I don't think what you are showing can happen in the factory with what we know of the cutting process?

dan

[theuclakid]

I believe SGC should be given the benefit of the doubt on these questionably graded T206's, not just because of their distinction among most pre war collectors of being the most consistent graders of pre war cards, but because they have seen the cards raw, in hand and have carefully examined the edges with the best available lighting, magnification and expertise...I dont see how anyone can be as sure as SGC with regards to the authenticity of the card by just viewing an enlarged scan, the assumed historical production facts not withstanding....Bruce Perry

[danmckee]

6000+ views and rocking!

This is a kick-ass thread!

I see what Bill told me with the Cobb Bat off, that card looks good from the scan and looks like it would have warranted a numerical grade. Very interesting, has anyone looked at the other Authentics? How many look good?

[Peter_Spaeth]

As long as we are at it, comments on this one?

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by theuclakid

I believe SGC should be given the benefit of the doubt on these questionably graded T206's, not just because of their distinction among most pre war collectors of being the most consistent graders of pre war cards, but because they have seen the cards raw, in hand and have carefully examined the edges with the best available lighting, magnification and expertise...I dont see how anyone can be as sure as SGC with regards to the authenticity of the card by just viewing an enlarged scan, the assumed historical production facts not withstanding....Bruce Perry

This is fairly stated Bruce, a good point.

Though I think SGC's consistency has changed after Derek left

and I will beg to differ on the Green Cobb

You could place that one on the moon and give me a telescope and I could see it is hacked.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by theuclakid

I believe SGC should be given the benefit of the doubt on these questionably graded T206's, not just because of their distinction among most pre war collectors of being the most consistent graders of pre war cards, but because they have seen the cards raw, in hand and have carefully examined the edges with the best available lighting, magnification and expertise...I dont see how anyone can be as sure as SGC with regards to the authenticity of the card by just viewing an enlarged scan, the assumed historical production facts not withstanding....Bruce Perry

Bruce there is certainly an appeal to that argument, but ultimately the logic of it is that SGC is infallible: SGC is the expert, SGC examined it and graded it, therefore SGC must be right. Do you believe that?

[danmckee]

my opinion, top and bottom are hacked. But I welcome other opinions and I think we need the larger raw scan so that the holder insert doesn't deceive us at the corners.

John Wonka can you add the raw Magie for us?

Thank you

[BleedinBlue]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Isn't it more likely that factory-issued cards would have survived, than 'scraps' such as these three? (plus the one in question).

Scott,

I don't agree with with this.

For the record there is nothing of substance I can offer regarding any of these cards being trimmed or not. I've never held the cards in hand and don't feel I have enough information to form a definitive opinion. I also can't afford them so any possibility of owning these cards exists solely in my mind. That being said, the Green Cobby gives me reason to pause.

As to the issue of factory cut cards being more likely to survive than hand cut scraps...

As unbelievable as it may sound to many of us on this board, a large proportion of the originally issued T206 cards were quickly discarded by the original purchaser who had no interest in owning the card. If a small number of factory cut Planks were issued they would only have survived had they been originally removed from the packaging by somebody who cared to save them either for themselves or gave them to somebody who wanted them. We can argue what percentage of cards pulled from packs became collectibles and what percentage went directly into the trash but I think we can all agree that the percentage which became collectibles is less than 100%. Probably far less. Scott Reader does a nice job of estimating original T206 production numbers and current populations in his Inside T206 opus. Using baseline numbers he estimates only 1/2% of the original production survived to today. Even if we doubled that number to 1% we would only expect that 1 of every 100 Planks which were issued in packs to still exist. However, I believe every non-factory "scrap" was taken from the factory to keep. Certainly they all didn't survive to this day but I don't believe too many were secreted out of the factory for trivial reasons.

That's a long way of saying that I disagree that factory cut examples were more likely to have survived than non-factory cut scraps.

[danmckee]

I guess we must remember as Bruce stated, SGC has had these in their hands and we haven't. Working off of scans is much different than in person. They are nice expensive cards and will be treasured by whoever purchases them.

[gnaz01]

So, I am not going to out a current auction, but there is this card that is currently up for auction, it is a T206 Cobb Green portrait, and this is the back. The flip says PSA5 Ex, how in the heck can the back damage on this card warrant an Ex!!!!!

[danmckee]

Are we missing something here?? Why are these not in psa holders? I would think the PSA registry would command more money than the SGC holder on these huge nice cards no?

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by gnaz01

So, I am not going to out a current auction, but there is this card that is currently up for auction, it is a T206 Cobb Green portrait, and this is the back. The flip says PSA5 Ex, how in the heck can the back damage on this card warrant an Ex!!!!!

We have discussed this one I think. I think this one is just as mind boggling. Paperloss and glue. If it is a legit flip, it almost looks like they only looked at the front? I guess if you are rushed, it could happen.

[CMIZ5290]

that psa 5 cobb has been on ebay for months....that's one that psa missed badly, or the card was swapped out. hard to believe psa would miss that.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

that psa 5 cobb has been on ebay for months....that's one that psa missed badly, or the card was swapped out. hard to believe psa would miss that.

I agree, I would bet on the swap job before a miss like that.

[CMIZ5290]

yes, i would too. no way psa misses that, let alone on a green cobb!

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

yes, i would too. no way psa misses that, let alone on a green cobb!

Quite honestly, I would shocked if they missed that on a common even!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by BleedinBlue

....

That's a long way of saying that I disagree that factory cut examples were more likely to have survived than non-factory cut scraps.

Very good argument.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Bottom may be ok Scott, maybe top got hacked down funky as it looks like it should be significantly larger all of the way across.

Maybe Ted Z or Jim Rivera or Tim Cathey the T206 experts could chime in here but I don't think what you are showing can happen in the factory with what we know of the cutting process?

dan

Dan, great thread...

I have one point to make in this huge debate. You state above that you don't think what is showing can happen in the factory with what we know of the cutting process.

The big point is that you are only drawing assumptions about the cut and not known facts. We have never had access to the factory that actually separated these cards, so how can we ever be sure about Plank, Cobb and Magie?

Not trying to stir the pot, just thought I'd ask

mike.ca.ve

[CMIZ5290]

I would like to hear opinions about the sgc 84 joe doyle...that's the one i have a genuine interest in.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

For those who are sure it is trimmed:

SGC is standing behind their grading of this card as much as is humanly possible. So if you are sure it is trimmed, SGC must also realize that. Given that scenario, why would they stick their necks out like that? To date, they have allowed PSA to stand alone on a pedestal with their Wagner 8 debacle. Why would SGC take a chance at climbing up (down?) on that pedestal with them?

Just curious what your thoughts are.

Scott

I recall very well that approx. 12 years ago SGC...."was standing behind their grading"....of the T206 Matty (portrait) card with the Red HINDU back, despite the fact
that SGC was told it was an impossible front/back combo....and therefore, a FAKE.

Subsequently, SGC relented and removed this "re-fronted" Matty card from circulation.


Yes, I'm one of those who is very skeptical of this PIEDMONT Plank having been an original factory cut T206.


TED Z

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Dan, great thread...

I have one point to make in this huge debate. You state above that you don't think what is showing can happen in the factory with what we know of the cutting process.

The big point is that you are only drawing assumptions about the cut and not known facts. We have never had access to the factory that actually separated these cards, so how can we ever be sure about Plank, Cobb and Magie?

Not trying to stir the pot, just thought I'd ask

mike.ca.ve

Hi Mike and thanks for posting.

Yes you are correct, I don't know any of this for certain. I do know that handling tobacco cards for years and buying many raw collections that a legit angle cut has always had the opposite angle cut on the other border.

That is why I was hoping Jim R or Tim C or Ted Z could comment on what they know of the cutting practice. I may be mistaking but I thought 1 or all of them did some research on that part. Tim C maybe?

thanks again for the interesting comments
dan

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

yes, i would too. no way psa misses that, let alone on a green cobb!

They've missed worse. I've posted this before, but here's a PSA 6 with paper loss on the front. It belonged to a fellow board member and I know the card wasn't swapped.

[CMIZ5290]

Maybe psa thought that was an earring!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Hi Mike and thanks for posting.

Yes you are correct, I don't know any of this for certain. I do know that handling tobacco cards for years and buying many raw collections that a legit angle cut has always had the opposite angle cut on the other border.

That is why I was hoping Jim R or Tim C or Ted Z could comment on what they know of the cutting practice. I may be mistaking but I thought 1 or all of them did some research on that part. Tim C maybe?

thanks again for the interesting comments
dan

Dan, I think Steve Birmingham is our man. Theories are great, but having someone who's handled the machinery and studied the history of it, is even better.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Scott

I recall very well that approx. 12 years ago SGC...."was standing behind their grading"....of the T206 Matty (portrait) card with the Red HINDU back, despite the fact
that SGC was told it was an impossible front/back combo....and therefore, a FAKE.

Subsequently, SGC relented and removed this "re-fronted" Matty card from circulation.


Yes, I'm one of those who is very skeptical of this PIEDMONT Plank having been an original factory cut T206.


TED Z

Ted, thanks for responding, but this is bigger, even though a mistake in this case would be much more acceptable (103-yr old hand-cut partially disguised via ravages of time, as opposed to modern re-backing). Evidence of the enormity of this Plank decision (at least in the minds of SGC) is their additional explanation.

[theuclakid]

SGC is not infallible but I still trust them or PSA more to get the Authenticity right (maybe not the grade though) than for me to just be able to see the card through the holder....now if I could view the card raw, and see the edges clearly etc.......then I would trust my expertise or any collector/seller who has handled and viewed closely a lot of these cards and knows what to look for....if you are a novice, I would say you have to trust the grading company for authenticity, even though they not infallible...when I buy any graded card, ideally, I just want to be concerned about the grade along with the price, and not to have to be concerned if the card is 100% authentic..Bruce Perry

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by theuclakid

SGC is not infallible but I still trust them or PSA more to get the Authenticity right (maybe not the grade though) than for me to just be able to see the card through the holder....now if I could view the card raw, and see the edges clearly etc.......then I would trust my expertise or any collector/seller who has handled and viewed closely a lot of these cards and knows what to look for....if you are a novice, I would say you have to trust the grading company for authenticity, even though they not infallible...when I buy any graded card, ideally, I just want to be concerned about the grade along with the price, and not to have to be concerned if the card is 100% authentic..Bruce Perry

Bruce, you are the man they are looking for - they should thank you for the ear-to-ear smiles you just gave them.

Look for my forthcoming article: "Through a Slab Darkly"

Originally Posted by ChiefBenderForever

Gretzky is much more to hockey than Wagner is to baseball so it's the Gretzky Wagner.

Really I think the Wagner 206 is way overrated but Gretzky is a fish in the meer ocean compared to Wagners ability and provenance.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Really I think the Wagner 206 is way overrated but Gretzky is a fish in the meer ocean compared to Wagners ability and provenance.

You must not watch or know anything about hockey to say that. In the sports card world yes you are correct but in the real world nothing compares to Gretzky on the ice, not even close. Wagner was good but far from the greatest in my opinion.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Ted, thanks for responding, but this is bigger, even though a mistake in this case would be much more acceptable (103-yr old hand-cut partially disguised via ravages of time, as opposed to modern re-backing). Evidence of the enormity of this Plank decision (at least in the minds of SGC) is their additional explanation.

Scott

Yes, this PIEDMONT Plank is of greater significance than the Matty example I gave. But, my point is not with respect to this Plank vs that Matty. It is that SGC in both
cases staked their reputation on the integity of their grading of these cards. And, with the former situation, SGC eventually had to "eat crow".

Only time will tell if this Plank stands as is, or will history repeat.


TED Z

[bxb]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Are we missing something here?? Why are these not in psa holders? I would think the PSA registry would command more money than the SGC holder on these huge nice cards no?

Do we know whether these cards were submitted to PSA first and rejected, and if so is there any way to find out...

[theuclakid]

Ted, I hear what you and others are saying about being skeptical with regard to the Plank...but if we cant trust them to at least get the authenticity right (no matter how difficult that is), why is anyone "taking chances" grading with them? I still say, since no one can see the whole card out of the holder, to see if the card has been rebacked or if the edges are original, then you either have to trust them or dont buy cards of this nature....yes I know I am stating the obvious here...Bruce Perry

[E93]

Originally Posted by danmckee

The Plank - It is the bottom edge to me and very noticable where it meets the left front corner. I see rounding at the corner not matching the bottom edge. Trimmed, hand-cut, whatever, that doesn't look factory to me.

Hi Dan,
I see what you are talking about and noticed it in the much-enlarged blowup of the card. It is almost unnoticeable and 1:1 levels. To me that is a very minor red flag (that can be explained in other ways) absent other evidence. If we could examine the card in person, we could examine the roll of that edge compared with the roll of the other edges on that card and other T206s in general. If this were a hand-cut card in 1909, that red flag could only be indicative of something other than trimming. Those types of indicators are evidence of trimming when a card had developed worn corners over the decades AND THEN was trimmed more recently to upgrade the appearance of the card. But that is not what most are arguing here. Most question the card because they think it must have been hand-cut because the other Piedmont scrap Planks were. If the argument is that it was trimmed recently to improve its grade, then is the presumption that it was factory cut and only the bottom edge was trimmed for that purpose? If that is the case, it is an entirely different argument and people should be thrilled to have found a factory cut Piedmont Plank, even if trimmed on one edge for grade improvement. But that is not the argument people are making. It just seems to me like there is an inconsistency in the arguments being made. If all four sides were trimmed, it must have been seriously oversized.
JimB

[atx840]

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by atx840

[slabbed Speaker removed]

funny, Chris - that's the same Tris before I cracked him out. I didn't realize there were still any of his mugshot scans on the web.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Are there any Wagner Piedmont 150s whose factory cut status is undisputed?

[BleedinBlue]

I wish somebody would stop talking about T cards and put some up on the BST.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Are there any Wagner Piedmont 150s whose factory cut status is undisputed?

Good one.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by theuclakid

SGC is not infallible but I still trust them or PSA more to get the Authenticity right (maybe not the grade though) than for me to just be able to see the card through the holder....now if I could view the card raw, and see the edges clearly etc.......then I would trust my expertise or any collector/seller who has handled and viewed closely a lot of these cards and knows what to look for....if you are a novice, I would say you have to trust the grading company for authenticity, even though they not infallible...when I buy any graded card, ideally, I just want to be concerned about the grade along with the price, and not to have to be concerned if the card is 100% authentic..Bruce Perry

Let's not forget the fake National Game card that was SGC graded nor the couple postcard fakes that were SGC graded!

Very sad work in my opinion no matter what Leon says!

NOT Consistant at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MW1]

Originally Posted by theuclakid

I believe SGC should be given the benefit of the doubt on these questionably graded T206's, not just because of their distinction among most pre war collectors of being the most consistent graders of pre war cards, but because they have seen the cards raw, in hand and have carefully examined the edges with the best available lighting, magnification and expertise...I dont see how anyone can be as sure as SGC with regards to the authenticity of the card by just viewing an enlarged scan, the assumed historical production facts not withstanding....Bruce Perry

+1

[MW1]

Not that outrageous of a grade on the T206 Speaker. The top of the card is miscut although SGC does not put qualifiers on its flips like PSA. Therefore, the only reasonable "grades" were either "Poor/Fair" or "Authentic". It was simply a judgment call on the part of SGC. I'm not sure what the issue is here since "Poor/Fair" has been used interchangeably with "Authentic" on a number of graded cards over the past decade and the respective values are roughly similar.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by MW1

Not that outrageous of a grade on the T206 Speaker. The top of the card is miscut although SGC does not put qualifiers on its flips like PSA. Therefore, the only reasonable "grades" were either "Poor/Fair" or "Authentic". It was simply a judgment call on the part of SGC. I'm not sure what the issue is here since "Poor/Fair" has been used interchangeably with "Authentic" on a number of graded cards over the past decade and the respective values are roughly similar.

There wasn't an issue. Dan made a comment that a diamond cut on one end required a diamond cut on the other. I was just saying that with the card in hand, both top and bottom borders looked good (not hand-cut) to me. The card also has kind of a surface tear (vertical) that is hard to see behind plastic, and still not too visually detrimental when raw. I don't know if that contributed to the 'poor/fair' grade - maybe it would have been higher without it, even with the diamond-cut top border.

Great thread, Dan.

[teetwoohsix]

I can't add anything that hasn't been said already, except that (unless I missed it) it seems like a year or two ago SGC would've posted in this thread by now to give a little more insight to us about these cards. Did I miss it? Or do they not follow the board the way they used to?

Sincerely, Clayton

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Not always true. As far as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the bottom of this one:

I agree with Scott. I have seen many, many caramel cards which were factory cut and had a big diamond cut on the top or bottom border without a matching diamond cut on the other top or bottom. I haven't seen as many of these weird cuts on tobacco cards but I have seen some like the Speaker which was displayed above.
I'm not weighing in on whether the Magie, Plank or Cobb are trimmed, although I do have an opinion, but rather just pointing out that not all diamond/diagonal cuts which don't have a matching opposite border, are hand cut or altered. I might mention I have also seen (and once owned) a very nice orange background Tinker E98 which had a wicked diamond cut left border and a straight right border and it sailed through grading with an SGC 40grade as SGC recognized it was a factory miscut.