The Skydash Collection ... the aftermath

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Because I know so little about the issue, I didn't have much of a clue what Skydash's Tin Tops would sell for in the Mastro Auction. I'm curious what the consensus is as far as prices realized: lower than what you thought? higher? biggest surprise?

Here's a recap on what the headliners sold for, including the 20 percent buyer's penalty:

Jim Thorpe, SGC 92 NM/MT+ 8.5 "1 of 1!" -- $51,896

Honus Wagner, Curved Letters, SGC 88 NM/MT 8 "1 of 1!" -- $8,907

Ty Cobb, SGC 88 NM/MT 8 "1 of 1!" -- $11,858

Tris Speaker, SGC 88 NM/MT 8 "1 of 1!" -- $2,963

Ed Cicotte, SGC 96 MINT 9 "1 of 1!" -- $4,339

Nap Lajoie, SGC 88 NM/MT 8 "1 of 1!" -- $3,259

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I guess I would have thought the Thorpe would have gone higher...the rest I don't know about.

This lot seems to me to have gone cheap, but then again I don't know much about the Colgan's.

http://tinyurl.com/2kv4d7

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

for all the lots was about $130-$140K. I'd say that was a little low but mostly for the Thorpe result. I thought it'd go much higher. I think the Jackson will go in the $60K range. BUT....you gotta have at least two bidders to get it moving.........He has tons of T and E stuff too that'll be in the next auction I guess..........

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Posted By: steve

I am stunned. The Skydash Tin Tops went for super low - absolutely amazed at the low, low winning bid amounts. The estimates were way higher for these rare high grade beauties.

I can only figure the Christmas time expenditures had an effect on the low prices. Or folks just do not care for the tin tops - because they don't collect them - but fact is they are so rare, one would be a fool to try to collect the set - hence low demand.


steve

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Posted By: Dave S

Totally in agreement that they sold much lower than expected...the 62 card lot Dan mentioned amazingly low!

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Im in agreement with you also. Yes the Thorpe card did fairly well. (could have been better) But if they were my lots I would have been very disappointed. Considering the rarity of the issue and the condition that these were in I as a consigner wouldnt have been happy. And a nice 20% juice. Might have been better if Skydash listed them himself on ebay with reserve! That 20% juice goes a long way for listing fees!!

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Posted By: Matt

The T205 lots I was following from the Skydash find did very well.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Al,

This is total speculation on my part, but because of the quality of the collection and what I'm guessing was a lot of competition by the auction houses to handle it, I doubt Skydash paid anything close to a 20 percent consignor's fee.

Again, speculation on my part.

Rob

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Posted By: Matt

Rob - is the "consignor's fee" something different then the 20% juice the auction house takes on top of the hammer price?

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Matt,

In most auctions the winning bidder pays a percentage of the winning bid, a "buyer's premium" as it's come to be known. The consignor's fee, which is what I think Al was referring to and what I was referring to, is the percentage that the person who owns the item pays to the auction house for selling the item. So if I'm reading your question right, yes, these are two different things.

Basically, the auction house gets paid a percentage from both the buyer and seller. While the buyer's penalty -- I mean "premium" -- isn't negotiable, if a seller has some really choice items, the percentage he pays certainly is negotiable. That's why I speculated that Skydash didn't pay a 20 percent consignor's fee.

Rob

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Posted By: Matt

Rob - WOW - so in most cases you are saying that Mastro will charge the cosigner 20% of the hammer price, plus take in another 20% of juice from the buyer? Effectively, that means the buyer is out 40% of the market value of the item.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Rob,
Happy Holidays! Your probably right a deal was probably made in respect to the 20% IMO I would think it may have been 10%. As we know when the numbers start getting that high people start feeling that the juice is just a bit much!! Lets say getting 10% from the seller and then another 20% from the buyer Thats 30% Correct me if Im wrong but on the Thorpe alone at 43,000 thats 13,000 approx. juice?
Not bad for 1 item!!!

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Matt,

I'm not sure if we're on the same page (and I should add that my example doesn't pertain just to Mastro Auctions). Here's an example that should make it clearer:

You consign a card to an auction house on which I'm the winning bidder at $100.

Based on a 20 percent buyer's premium and consignor's fee: I end up paying the auction house $120 and the auction house pays you $80.

So, yes, the auction house took in 40 percent of the hammer price, but I'm not sure about your reference to the buyer taking the entire 40 percent hit.

Rob

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Posted By: Ed Hans

I think we may safely assume that Skydash didn't pay any consignment fee. For a collection of this stature, auction houses are in fierce competition with each other and may offer to waive the fee. The auctioneers revenue would come exclusively from the buyer's premium. In fact, I wouldn't be shocked if part of the hammer fee were credited back to the consignor; ie a negative 2% consignment fee.

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Posted By: Mark Steinberg

Mastro has always charged me 15% to consign. I believe this is still their standard rate. I am SURE that if Skydash negotiated at all, he was able to list these for less than the standard 15% commission (considering the breadth of items being offered).

The consignment fee is definitely negotiable, and savvy consignors will contact multiple auctions for the best rate. For this type of item, Mastro was probably a good choice (even though prices fell a bit short of expectation). Mastro's client list and expertise with high-end cards is likely second-to-none.

If the realized prices were disappointing, I don't think the problem was anything to do with Mastro. These cards received maximum exposure, to be sure.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Ed,
I doubt that they waived the fee. If so I would be very surprised. I agree with Mark that 15% is the standard and that is why in my example I was giving the benefit of the doubt and said 10%. I really dont think they would do that. Yes it was and large find of them but If they had to give no fee to all the great items that came to them soon everybody would want that discount. I believe it was more in the 10% range.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

you guys are off your rocker if you think Skydash had to pay any type of consignors fee...Auction Houses are dying to get their hands on top shelf material, and if he had any type of negotiation skills (or advice from fellow collectors), i am sure he not only paid 0% consignors fee, but i bet he got a cash advance...

p.s. someone above said the Jackson would only hit $60K...i bet he will go for way more than that...a low grade example sold a few mohts back for $45K +/-...

even tho the thorpe is rarer than jackson (it's something like 3 examples vs. 5 known), thorpe has no where near the romance, nor cult following that shoeless joe has...

just my 2 cents for the day...

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Posted By: PC

I'm not surprised at the prices. Most people who can afford these rarities are probably very, very concerned about the economy next year (primarily because they know more then we do about the issues on the horizon), and are not going to pay a premium for any collectible that has a significant risk of declining in value.

I think we're going to see some things in this down cycle that we haven't seen before. Banks already have reserve issues because of write-downs, and we're beginning to see a domino effect in the capital markets, as money is neither plentiful nor cheap. This has already limited the ability for troubled companies to refinance their debt, which will lead to bankruptcy proceedings, which will wipe-out the high yield unsecured debt issued by those companies that is held by every financial instutition in the country. Which leads to more write-downs. The problem is already here in certain industries (homebuilders). You do not need a crystal ball to see it.

And the problems go way beyond housing sector and housing market.


But what do I know, I just collect beat tobacco and gum cards. Maybe there just aren't enough Tin Top collectors out there.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Mike,
2 cents for the day! I know you can do better than that!
I agree with you on the Thorpe vs Jackson Two different animals for following. But as for consignment fee I still think 10%. Nice pickups on the cards by the way! Al

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Posted By: Matt

Rob - we're on the same page - what I meant about the seller being out 40% is that if the seller would have sold that item without the auction house they would have kept the whole amount that the buyer paid; by going through the auction house, they're out approx 40% of that income. I just always assumed that the $$ the auction house took was from the buyer in the form of the 20%; I didn't realize they charge the consignor money as well!

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Posted By: Rhys

I was not really surprised by the prices, irrespective of the economy. I thought people were crazy for thinking the Thorpe was a 100K item to begin with and the final price was probably right where it should have been (35K-50K). The Jackson will go higher than the Thorpe, but 60K sounds about right. Once you get into rarities like this, condition does not matter as much as simply finding one.

As for the fee, I bet he didn't pay anything. Other bigger auction houses will not only completely waive the consignors fee, but negotiate what percentage of the buyers fee you will also get for a large deal. If Mastro only gave a generous 10% rate and another auction house would give you 5% on the buyers end too, then nobody in their right mind would go with Mastro at an automatic 15% hike at the bottom line. If he paid anything on the sellers end than he should have weighed his options with one of the other companies first because he did himself a disservice.

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Posted By: leon

Read what Rhys just said.....go with it....(I have no inside information either)...regards

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Matt,
Welcome to the world of auction houses!! Sounds to me you need to bid on an item and get your feet wet!!! Al

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Posted By: MVSNYC

thanks Al...

be well.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Leon,
Rhys is right but like I said I also felt the Thorpe was (just) a little low. And target price was very close,but some of the other lots were very low IMO. As for fee thinking about it now it was probably no fee,for a great collection like this. Probably came with dinner and drinks!!!!LOL

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Posted By: Matt

Al - I've bid and won in the past - I just assumed the 20% went to the auction house and the consignor got the rest;
It sounds to me like I should open an auction house!!

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Matt,
YES it does sound like that!LOL And if you do then I think you should use Barry S. As a model!!!! Hi Barry.

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Posted By: Tom Nieves

Matt,

I'd be happy to explain it to you for a small fee.

Tom

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Posted By: Matt

Tom - would it involve you fronting $8k to a total stranger?

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Posted By: JK

Tom - very funny.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Consignment fee??? You gotta be kidding me. The only question is did Mastro pay him for the privledge of selling his lots.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Jim- agreed...we see eye-to-eye on this...

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

My understanding is Robert Edwards is the only house who is not really negotiable on consignment fee.

Greg

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Posted By: Fred C

Looks like this thread is turning into one of those discussions about auction houses and the "juice".

Didn't Mastro raise the buyers premium so that they could lower the sellers premium in an effort to attract more sellers?

To keep with the thread - it was mentioned that some people speculated on the Thorpe going to $100K. I guess this auction pretty much settled that discussion. Still, $40K isn't bad for a Colgans card.

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Posted By: Jason L

that Skydash-whoever didn't force them to put it all in the April auction, given the better spending patterns you often see after bonus and tax-return time.

These surprised some on the downside because the demand was overestimated. Very rare, scarce, neat, whatever you want to call it, but not terribly collectable for enough people in such small populations, so it's not as though the audience is wide enough to drive these things like the Thorpe into $100k+

may have realized a better price if it was packaged better

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Posted By: JimB

I know the numbers did not hit the excited speculation of some, but I thought they were strong. Mastro certainly did all that was possible to hype them. If they did not get it in that auction, they would not have gotten it anywhere else either. Anywone who would have been interested knew about it. I disagree that he would have done better on ebay. No way! I also agree that the Jackson is much more desirable that the Thorpe and will probably bring more $.

I assume Skydash was able to work a good consignment deal. Everybody knew he was being courted by multiple auction houses. I'm sure they all offered the best deals they could to him to get that collection consigned.
JimB


P.S. Just to correct a little math that was offered earlier...

"You consign a card to an auction house on which I'm the winning bidder at $100.

Based on a 20 percent buyer's premium and consignor's fee: I end up paying the auction house $120 and the auction house pays you $80.

So, yes, the auction house took in 40 percent of the hammer price, but I'm not sure about your reference to the buyer taking the entire 40 percent hit."

That would make a 33% hit, not a 40% hit. $80 is 67% of $120. However, I would be shocked if Skydash paid a percentage like that.

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Posted By: Wesley

I am surprised the Cobb, Wagner and other cards sold for as much as they did. Jackson and Thorpe might have images unique to the Tin Top set, but it is near impossible to distinguish the other players from the regular Colgan Chips.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

I am in total agreement with Rhys (kinda starnge for two brothers to agree on anything). But before the auction him and I talked about it and our estimate on the Thorpe was in the $35-45,000 range, with the possibility of reaching into the $50,000's. The other cards also ended for about what I had anticipated, some being slightly low, and some slightly high (or at least I thought), but the condition of the cards was truly rare for the issue.

I was also kinda surprised when people were throwing out the $100,000 estimates on the Thorpe, but I have been surprised before. I think the Jackson will end for more than the Thorpe, but also not into the 100K's. The main reason the lower grade Jackson did so well was due to it being the first Jackson available in an EXTREMELY long time. This will be the second Jackson in under a year, so it will be affected, but should still reach $50-60,000+.
-Rhett

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Posted By: David Smith

Because of their rarity (and condition) if I had the money, I would much rather spend a combined $200,000 or so on the Jackson, Thorpe and the rest of the Tin Tops than the same amount on a poor condition T206 Wagner. I mean, if you have THAT type of money to spend on cards, I think it would be better to spend it on high grade rarities than the more "common" T206 Wagner.

Once you became owner of the Tin Tops, it would be much easier to find a T206 Wagner than trying to do things in reverse.

Just my opinion,

David

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Posted By: JimB

I would take a T206 Wagner in poor condition over some little round "cards" any day. I am sort of joking about the "cards" thing, but seriously, I don't think these are even in the same league as the Wagner. There are a handful of cards I might rather have than a Wagner, but these ain't among them. Not even close. But differences of opinion make the world go round. They also keep the vintage card market diverse. Occassionally there are differences of opinion here.
JimB

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Posted By: T206Collector

I get that there are some people that are not overly impressed by T206, with or without Wagner. But if you are weighing two choices: a bunch of black and white pogs that no one outside of a very small niche of very rich Americans has heard of -- and a T206 Wagner in whatever condition makes those two choices ecomonically the same at the time of the transaction, you take the Wagner each and every time.

How many turns, dips and dives did your vintage collecting interests have to take before it came up with these pogs as extremely valuable collectibles? The Wagner will always have resell potential. These pogs? Er, no.

But for everyone writing about how amazing they are and the results of the most recent Mastro auction, I would have thought these Tin Top pogs were available with a large slushie at the local Gas N Sip. Just look under the oversized bottle cap.

I recognize that there is a "fine wine" element here, and I am advocating for the merlot that everyone likes -- but if you've ever turned down a Wagner for some other card, when you had never previously owned a Wagner, I'd sure like to hear about it.


(edited for typos and a minor substantive point.)

Visit http://www.t206collector.com for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: Paul

Do any of you know what an SGC 88 / PSA 8 ordinary Colgan's Chips of Wagner would usually sell for? I'm thinking not a whole lot less than the Colgan's Tip Top from the Skydash Collection. But I don't really know, which is why I'm asking.

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Posted By: Richard

Paul -

An SGC 88 or PSA 8 colgan's chip wagner would go for $2000-2500.

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Posted By: Wesley

I hope I am not violating the VCP TOS by posting this, but a PSA 8 Colgan Chip Wagner sold for $2442 and a SGC 88 Colgan Chip Wagner sold recently on ebay for $2550. By contrast, the SGC 88 TIn Top Wagner sold last night for $8907.

The last PSA 8 Cobb sold over one year ago for $1851. The SGC 88 Tin Top Cobb sold last night for $11858.

With identicles front images, the Tin Tops are certainly not worth 5 to 6x more than the regular Colgans to me. But then again, I have never been especially fond of the Colgan Chips either.

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Posted By: steve

Assume current price levels equal. The choice of the T206 Wagner in beater condition vs. 1 of 1 rarity Cobb/Wagner/Ruth in top condition. I'll leave the T206 Wagner on the table.

I buy the best I can afford in PSA/SGC EX 5 or better. I once had a Grover Alexander, because a nice Alexander is tough, in PSA 4. The little crease killed it for me.

I also want eye appeal - very important. The Colgan's (Thorpe excluded) have very impresseive photos. They just ooze vintage.

A beater Wagner would be a coveted eyesore.

steve

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Posted By: T206Collector

...where you are coming from in the normal context of a beater card worth $1,000 and another nice card worth $1,000. But a Wagner beater isn't a beater -- it's a Wagner. Condition doesn't enter into it.

It's easy to talk about leaving a Wagner on the table in hypothetical terms. But I want to hear from someone -- anyone -- who did that and instead invested their money in another card. (If you decided not to drop $1,500 on a Wagner in 1975 because that was a lot of money back then, I am less interested -- though still curious.)




Visit http://www.t206collector.com for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: steve

From Memory Lane, a T206 Wagner PSA 2 closes shortly and is at $250.k

What else in the vintage card market might sell for as much? How about the 1916 Ruth rookie? Or the highest known graded Cracker Jack Cobb?

Give me a tangible choice to choose from. I'm not current on the super huge price card market.

great discussion, steve

edited - the PSA 2 Wagner sure looks trimmed on the top to me - I could also be off the deep end.

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Posted By: Rhys

T206 cards are the most overrated cards in the hobby. With literally millions of them out there I honestly cant see what the attraction is. Colgans are different and much rarer and as for the black and white thing, it does not seem to hurt Breisch Williams cards. I guess I am different but I would take the Colgans any day. In fact, I think I would take just about anything ahead of T206 cards but I feel as though Colgans are vastly underrated. With a large player selection, rarities being discovered every day, Real Horner Photos, and overall much tougher to find than T206 cards, Colgans have everything going for them except corners. If these cards were square instead of round they would be worth 3X as much as they are. But that is fine, keep them cheap and affordable. To each his own and I guess collecting T206 cards is cool and everything, but to me it is like waking up every morning and eating the same Wheaties breakfast for 30 years; Predictable and ordinary, but if that floats your boat than thats cool. Give me those nasty pogs anyday!

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

I collected Colgan's for 20 years. Really only collected the Tin Tops towards the end and NEVER saw any on ebay for sale--maybe once or twice in REALLY low condition. By comparison, I saw (and won) quite a few red bordered E270's. The Tin Tops are VERY VERY scarce overall in relation to the normal Stars of the Diamond. I think the 5 to 1 ratio on Cobbs and Wagners is right on par......a 'common' ungraded Tin Top would typically sell for $125-$200 now which is 4-5X a common Stars of the Diamond. When I sold my Colgan's I had 25 or so Red Borders and 7-8 Tin Tops with about 230-240 of the Stars of the Diamond.

The people bidding on and buying these Tin Tops very likely already have Wagner's. Just my opinion.......there are more Wagner's available and out there than Jacksons OR Thorpes by a 15-20 to 1 margin. At least Jackon's or Thorpes that have been seen and known in the hands of collectors. Even with that disparity, they'll never sell for what a Wagner will even in poor condition. Just due to the notoriety of the Wagner. Many, if not all, of the N173 OJ Cabinets are more scarce than the Wagner too and they don't command that type of money. Just supply & demand......

Was hoping Sky would get a little more coin for them but as someone stated above, he has nothing in them. My estimate for the Jackson is $62,500. We should have that be one of the contests early in 2008..........

I'm sure Mark Macrae could give us more details on the Colgan's Tin Tops and other series....much more than myself....

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Posted By: nbrazil

"With literally millions of them out there I honestly cant see what the attraction is."

Scarcity is not the only variable a collector uses to determine what set to collect.