Hey, pennant guys

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

The comparison clinches it, no doubt. Now the question is, why was it made? And that's where the scary part comes in: I hope we're not in for a generation of repros good enough to be floating around shows and auctions without question.

Good question. It’s not a Mitchell and Ness which usually leaves enough of a difference in the graphics to know it’s a repro. I think these were made to be passed off as real. As for repros to pass as “real”, yes they can fool the casual collector who wants a neat display for his favorite team, but I’d think that all of us here could tell by feel if not sight.

Of course it’s the casual collector who plays a significant role in determining value (or lack thereof) …

[perezfan]

Yep... to have it in-hand would be tremendously helpful. Much tougher on a two dimensional screen. I couldn't initially see it on eBay, but hopefully would've noticed upon physical inspection.

The telltale signs you mentioned are undeniable, and I'm now with you, that the entire pennant is a convincing fake (made to deceive). In addition to the incorrect placement of "1955", the comma after "Alston" is too close to "Mgr."

These were not produced in large quantities like M &N. So who had the technology and the skills to pull this off, and why haven't we seen it with other teams' pennants? Hopefully we never will, as this is really criminal.

[Fballguy]

The seller is a good guy. I've bought many pennants from him and he seems to get quite rare ones too. The spine and tassels are obviously wrong, but I wouldn't have suspected anything off with the body, unless maybe I held it in hand.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by murphusa

College Basketball

That same graphic appears on a fairly highly coveted late 60's Lew Alcindor pennant. Used to sell for in excess of $200 but there was a recent find of 20 or so. Not sure if that had any impact on sale price. Whoever has them hasn't flooded the market with them so maybe not.

[ooo-ribay]

I see the 1955 Dodgers pennant is no longer available. Did it sell or was it pulled?

[rlevy]

It was pulled within a couple of hours of when it was listed. I assumed it was for an off-eBay sale until I saw Greg's posting questioning its authenticity. So no way to know why it was pulled at this point.

Greg, are all these 1955 Brooklyn scroll pennants only made of cloth?

Rick

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by rlevy

It was pulled within a couple of hours of when it was listed. I assumed it was for an off-eBay sale until I saw Greg's posting questioning its authenticity. So no way to know why it was pulled at this point.

Greg, are all these 1955 Brooklyn scroll pennants only made of cloth?

Rick

Rick, to the best of my knowledge they are all blue cloth. Never seen any different. The one that reads “World and National League Champs” is even harder to find. I can’t even find a picture of it. But it is glorious.

The ‘49 and ‘52 Dodger scroll pennants are felt and came in multi colors. Strangely, have never seen a ‘53 or ‘56 scroll pennant from either Bkln or NYY.

[rlevy]

Thanks Greg, interesting info. I’m hoping to land a Brooklyn scroll pennant at some point. I do remember seeing a ‘55 with both nl and world champs on it, but it wasn’t in very good shape. Surprising that so few of them have ever surfaced given how momentous an event it was for Brooklyn.

Rick

[Duluth Eskimo]

This pennant has been sold as “genuine” for years. I have pointed this out to auction houses, eBay sellers, etc all to no avail. This pennant was made in the 80’s - 90’s, but I don’t have any details. The only thing that makes sense is a Mitchell & Ness from their earliest production. Mitchell & Ness made very high quality reproductions and sold them along with their jerseys in their catalogs. I used to have an account with them and would buy jerseys to get autographed. There are other pennants too (black 59 White Sox, etc) that get too passed off as authentic. They generally only reproduced very rare desirable pennants that most collectors could never find. You need to remember that the only place you could find pennants back in the day was at shows or antique shows. There were no auctions with photographs for the most part. We take for granted the 1000’s of pennants you scroll through on eBay every day. Anyways, this is a repro.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

This pennant has been sold as “genuine” for years. I have pointed this out to auction houses, eBay sellers, etc all to no avail. This pennant was made in the 80’s - 90’s, but I don’t have any details. The only thing that makes sense is a Mitchell & Ness from their earliest production. Mitchell & Ness made very high quality reproductions and sold them along with their jerseys in their catalogs. I used to have an account with them and would buy jerseys to get autographed. There are other pennants too (black 59 White Sox, etc) that get too passed off as authentic. They generally only reproduced very rare desirable pennants that most collectors could never find. You need to remember that the only place you could find pennants back in the day was at shows or antique shows. There were no auctions with photographs for the most part. We take for granted the 1000’s of pennants you scroll through on eBay every day. Anyways, this is a repro.

What years did Mitchell & Ness make pennants?

[murphusa]

Being in Philly, I spent alot of time at M&N's store and also time with the owner. He always made his items with a difference from the original. On all of his jackets, sweaters, and jerseys there was always one extra button.

I do not know what he did with pennants but there is a difference

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by murphusa

Being in Philly, I spent alot of time at M&N's store and also time with the owner. He always made his items with a difference from the original. On all of his jackets, sweaters, and jerseys there was always one extra button.

I do not know what he did with pennants but there is a difference

I got into collecting vintage pennants because of Mitchell and Ness. I had about 15-20 pennants from my childhood, bought at Phillies games, they were from the mid 70s to mid 80s. I always liked drawing the logos. Sometime around 1997 I noticed a Mitchell and Ness advertised Super Bowl weekend sale of 50% off items. They did this for a few years. I went in and saw their repro pennants and bought a bunch to decorate the newly renovated basement. In the old store, the owner had original pennants hanging on the walls. Some were nice, like the ‘49 Phillies Blue Jay roster pennant. “Not for sale” I was told. A year or so after that I discovered eBay and I bought a big pile of vintage at a flea market, sold off my repros at the Philly memorabilia show for cheap.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

This pennant has been sold as “genuine” for years. I have pointed this out to auction houses, eBay sellers, etc all to no avail. This pennant was made in the 80’s - 90’s, but I don’t have any details. The only thing that makes sense is a Mitchell & Ness from their earliest production. Mitchell & Ness made very high quality reproductions and sold them along with their jerseys in their catalogs. I used to have an account with them and would buy jerseys to get autographed. There are other pennants too (black 59 White Sox, etc) that get too passed off as authentic. They generally only reproduced very rare desirable pennants that most collectors could never find. You need to remember that the only place you could find pennants back in the day was at shows or antique shows. There were no auctions with photographs for the most part. We take for granted the 1000’s of pennants you scroll through on eBay every day. Anyways, this is a repro.

Mitchell and Ness pennants all seem to have designs and lettering with the same feel as the pennant itself. This ‘55 pennant looks like it was screened. I agree that it’s a repro but it seems like a different process than M&N.

Like Mark says, this was made to deceive. The creator made a point to match the traditional Trench font used in the names, and came really close but left enough of a difference to tell.

[thetahat]

Also interesting about the 1955 Dodgers, it seems to be the only year of the 1940s-50s that Trench made their scroll pennants on cloth. Both ‘55 Bkyn and NYY. All the others are felt. All the different 1954 Indians and NYG and the 1957, 58 Braves. 1949 and 1952 Dodgers are felt. Some in the 1960s are cloth, with the scroll not being screened just the names, like this Redlegs pennant.

Anyone have a counterexample?

[thetahat]

I’ve been pretty inactive of late on eBay but did pick these up recently. The 1969 Twins is part of the cool ASCO cloth set, I only had it in red. I like the way Minnesota is written, very retro. And I love the dated Trenches, especially from ordinary seasons. I never saw the ‘52 Tribe.

[ooo-ribay]

Great pickups, Greg!

I just got this. I don't usually care too much about color variations and I have plenty of "Giants on the Bridge" but for $35, delivered, what the hell? The tip is so sharp you could cut yourself.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

What years did Mitchell & Ness make pennants?

I had my account before they got popular and you could still have athletes sign jerseys for the same price as any other item. I would say late 80’s to early 90’s forward. They were advertised in their catalog. I will have to look to see if I still have a catalog somewhere.

In regards to make up, some were different than vintage. Some were identical. I’m not going to argue about this, but I’ve been buying and selling vintage pennants and memorabilia since the 80’s. I’ve mistakingly bought them on eBay back in the day and sent back for return. They obviously aren’t made of the original pressed felt, rather a very soft more modern woven felt like material. They were very well produced just like their jerseys. They made high quality products. I’ve only seen baseball and no other sports. They specifically had the 1955 Dodgers scroll with the pink bum, but it was a brighter blue. That was probably the most popular back then because you couldn’t find nice Brooklyn pennants and the Brooklyn Dodgers were very collectible in those days. I still see these pennants offered for sale as original as well as listed in auctions.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Here are two that are commonly mistaken as original. These are listed as M&N on eBay right now. There is also someone trying to sell this 1969 version as real. You can see the stitching and piping, but both these are same as original. Obviously the 1969 Mets was only made on woven fabric and not felt.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Great pickups, Greg!

I just got this. I don't usually care too much about color variations and I have plenty of "Giants on the Bridge" but for $35, delivered, what the hell? The tip is so sharp you could cut yourself.

Thanks, and that Giants is sweet. They should have put the Mullin Giant in the stadium pennant instead of the generic batter.

[thetahat]

Here we go again

https://www.ebay.com/itm/22519272735...6X1YA&LH_BIN=1

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Here we go again

I guess we're going to have to start authenticating and slabbing them--not!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I had my account before they got popular and you could still have athletes sign jerseys for the same price as any other item. I would say late 80’s to early 90’s forward. They were advertised in their catalog. I will have to look to see if I still have a catalog somewhere.

In regards to make up, some were different than vintage. Some were identical. I’m not going to argue about this, but I’ve been buying and selling vintage pennants and memorabilia since the 80’s. I’ve mistakingly bought them on eBay back in the day and sent back for return. They obviously aren’t made of the original pressed felt, rather a very soft more modern woven felt like material. They were very well produced just like their jerseys. They made high quality products. I’ve only seen baseball and no other sports. They specifically had the 1955 Dodgers scroll with the pink bum, but it was a brighter blue. That was probably the most popular back then because you couldn’t find nice Brooklyn pennants and the Brooklyn Dodgers were very collectible in those days. I still see these pennants offered for sale as original as well as listed in auctions.

No argument from me. The Mets is graphically identical. So are their BF3 remakes, come to think of it.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I guess we're going to have to start authenticating and slabbing them--not!

Ugh

[thetahat]

What is going on here??? Sure looks modern to me … could I be wrong?

EDIT: not wrong

https://www.ebay.com/itm/22518842759...p2047675.l2557

[ooo-ribay]

I’m beginning to get freaked out.

What is wrong with the Raiders and Tigers pennants?

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I’m beginning to get freaked out.

What is wrong with the Raiders and Tigers pennants?

That particular Raiders example is definitely misshapen and has something weird going on with the spine/stitching but I've seen other examples of it and think it's legit. They all have red spines for some reason, which is definitely odd.

This one would benefit greatly from a trim job on the nose and a gray spine and tassels. How does a tip get stretched that much without tearing?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

That particular Raiders example is definitely misshapen and has something weird going on with the spine/stitching but I've seen other examples of it and think it's legit. They all have red spines for some reason, which is definitely odd.

This one would benefit greatly from a trim job on the nose and a gray spine and tassels. How does a tip get stretched that much without tearing?

The seller got great money, but me? I would have ironed it prior to taking pictures.

[thetahat]

Okay so maybe I haven’t been THAT inactive on eBay …

Two super-sized (5-1/2 feet long) 1969 ASCOs popped up. Similar composition to my others except these don’t have grommets. The seller claims these were hung with others at the ‘69 ASG in DC which was initially postponed by rain, causing the noticeable bleeding on the Dodgers spine. (1st pic is from the auction.) Who knows if true but there was a rain out. Maybe it was at an event or something. I’d love to know more about them.

Bleeding typically is, for me, a fatal flaw. I can cope better with missing tassels or tip. But I took a gamble that I could get it out. Turns out I had a metal yardstick that fit perfectly in the spine, so I made a 20/80 bleach/water solution and brushed it on it … it worked great with no spotting at all on the underneath blue. Bleeding all gone.

That makes 6 teams now and 18 to go. LOL. No shot. But Id love to get a super-sized Pilots if one still exists. I think I saw a Twins somewhere …

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

The seller got great money, but me? I would have ironed it prior to taking pictures.

He obviously attended Jonsstats' "Who gives a crap...here's a picture" sellers seminar.

[Fballguy]

Because body parts in pennant photos amuse me...

This looks like a crime scene photo. Suburban housewife finally has enough of her husband's excessive pennant expenditures. Her mistake? Doesn't mourn long enough before attempting to cash in.

[ooo-ribay]

Pretty, pretty cool, Greg! Even for…you know…

[ooo-ribay]

Who might have made these? The batter in the moon ball has been done for many teams. A different maker(?) later incorporated it in their pennants.

[thetahat]

I think it is the “mystery NY area company”. I gotta find the pic that someone (you?) posted at some sort of 1960s banquet, behind the podium hung a bunch of team pennants. The top on is definitely from that group, likely the others.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

I think it is the “mystery NY area company”. I gotta find the pic that someone (you?) posted at some sort of 1960s banquet, behind the podium hung a bunch of team pennants. The top on is definitely from that group, likely the others.

I was kind of thinking the bottom three would be a west coast maker because I’ve never really seen anything similar…

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Okay so maybe I haven’t been THAT inactive on eBay …

Two super-sized (5-1/2 feet long) 1969 ASCOs popped up. Similar composition to my others except these don’t have grommets. The seller claims these were hung with others at the ‘69 ASG in DC which was initially postponed by rain, causing the noticeable bleeding on the Dodgers spine. (1st pic is from the auction.) Who knows if true but there was a rain out. Maybe it was at an event or something. I’d love to know more about them.

Bleeding typically is, for me, a fatal flaw. I can cope better with missing tassels or tip. But I took a gamble that I could get it out. Turns out I had a metal yardstick that fit perfectly in the spine, so I made a 20/80 bleach/water solution and brushed it on it … it worked great with no spotting at all on the underneath blue. Bleeding all gone.

That makes 6 teams now and 18 to go. LOL. No shot. But Id love to get a super-sized Pilots if one still exists. I think I saw a Twins somewhere …

Wow. Love those pennants Greg.

[UKCardGuy]

I don't have this in hand yet...waiting for delivery. But I couldn't believe my luck when I came across this 1936 Yankees Grommet Pennant and managed to win it.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I don't have this in hand yet...waiting for delivery. But I couldn't believe my luck when I came across this 1936 Yankees Grommet Pennant and managed to win it.

FANTASTIC pennant with great colors. Congrats!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I don't have this in hand yet...waiting for delivery. But I couldn't believe my luck when I came across this 1936 Yankees Grommet Pennant and managed to win it.

Dayum! I'm adding you to the "Heavy Hitters" of this thread.

[MK]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I don't have this in hand yet...waiting for delivery. But I couldn't believe my luck when I came across this 1936 Yankees Grommet Pennant and managed to win it.

Absolutely gorgeous. Fantastic pickup Gary.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Who might have made these? The batter in the moon ball has been done for many teams. A different maker(?) later incorporated it in their pennants.

Rob: Marc and I have been discussing these anomalies....

I'm pretty sure all four were made by Trench/IMPKO, around the time Tom Storm purchased IMPKO and their patented screen printing process. Each pennant represents a blend of Trench artwork + IMPKO's signature coloring; and all appear to have been made in the latter half of the 1960s, when the two companies became one.

As far as we know, these were only made for the SF Giants.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Rob: Marc and I have been discussing these anomalies....

I'm pretty sure all four were made by Trench/IMPKO, around the time Tom Storm purchased IMPKO and their patented screen printing process. Each pennant represents a blend of Trench artwork + IMPKO's signature coloring; and all appear to have been made in the latter half of the 1960s, when the two companies became one.

As far as we know, these were only made for the SF Giants.

Interesting. So if the ball moon artwork is Trench, that mean that the other "Batter and Moon" pennants for the Brooklyn Dodgers and the Phillies were by Trench too, right? What about the "Fielder and Moon" LA Dodgers?

[ooo-ribay]

Makes total sense, Kyle. Thanks for the info….I’ll have to see if I can remember it.

I’ve never seen the fielder and the moon before. Interesting.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Interesting. So if the ball moon artwork is Trench, that mean that the other "Batter and Moon" pennants for the Brooklyn Dodgers and the Phillies were by Trench too, right? What about the "Fielder and Moon" LA Dodgers?

Yep, I think both design series came from Trench. During the late 1950s, Trench was experimenting with a bunch of new production methods and artists, e.g., they made a few pennants without tassels in 1959; they switched to different woven cloth substitutes throughout the decade; and they employed cutting edge screen printing techniques. They even launched a premium line using flocked graphics that they quickly abandoned. The Storms were keen on modernizing the decades old company when they bought it in the late 1950s. Innovation was key to their success.

Some changes worked out. Some didn't.

Below, here's (1) the tassel-less stadium pennant featuring the LA Coliseum and known Trench batter artwork; (2) a second stadium pennant featuring an alternative depiction of the LA Coliseum by a new artist with same Trench batter and unique "Dodgers" script; (3) the fielder and moon pennant featuring same "Dodgers" script; and (4) a ca. 1960 photo of a vendor selling pennants #1-2 outside the LA Coliseum, with other known Trench pennants.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Interesting. So if the ball moon artwork is Trench, that mean that the other "Batter and Moon" pennants for the Brooklyn Dodgers and the Phillies were by Trench too, right? What about the "Fielder and Moon" LA Dodgers?

Here's a Yankees "Baseball Moon" version you don't often see....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/26592482653...Bk9SR8iRmo73YA

[thetahat]

I think that these pennants come from whoever made these, it includes the Phillies, pic is 1962-64 (corner of Colt 45s barely visible far right). I just have a tough time accepting these as Trench, given what they were known to make during that period.

[thetahat]

Heads up on this

https://www.ebay.com/itm/26592800971..._b3YA&LH_BIN=1

This exact pennant just sold in auction on Monday, it’s a beautiful pennant, the bottom tassels were either completely detached or were literally hanging by a thread. Seemingly the only flaw but here it was:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/20410323662...app-cvip-panel

New owner/seller glued them into place (told me so) but does not mention this in description. I know there is a Tigers collector here and you may (or may not) find this useful …

[ser1979]

Funny story about the guy selling the Tigers pennant. Guy messaged me one day over a pennant I had for sale. Gave me a long story about how he's only a collector needed this pennant for his personal collection. So I sold the pennant for less than what I was asking cause I had upgraded only to have him turn around and list it for about 3 times what he paid for it, lol. Lesson learned. He is also overpriced on his pennants IMO. Link is to the pennant I sold him about a year ago that is still for sale.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/29440031393...AAAOSwdwBhQ2Tk

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ser1979

Funny story about the guy selling the Tigers pennant. Guy messaged me one day over a pennant I had for sale. Gave me a long story about how he's only a collector needed this pennant for his personal collection. So I sold the pennant for less than what I was asking cause I had upgraded only to have him turn around and list it for about 3 times what he paid for it, lol. Lesson learned. He is also overpriced on his pennants IMO. Link is to the pennant I sold him about a year ago that is still for sale.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/29440031393...AAAOSwdwBhQ2Tk

Interesting, and unfortunate. And yes, I agree, his items are way, way overpriced.

The pennant he repaired was very nice, I wanted it and would have bid higher if not for the tassel issue. (I have it in red but with less vibrant colors.) I display my pennants with the tassels tucked behind the pennant but still, I keep resale value in mind. Now it is glued and up for resale without any reference to it. Lame.

[661fish]

I made an offer on his green one with the diamond of tigers. He is pretty shrewd. Hopefully nobody buys from him.

[sayheykid54]

Vintagebaseballco is one of the best sellers on Ebay. Impeccable reputation. They have revised the pennant to reflect the repair.