N175 Goodwin and Company Gypsy Queen packs, cartons, cards etc....

[Leon]

I posted a new pick up of a Gypsy Queen carton and since there was a question (hey Joe G) I figure I will do a thread so as not to clutter the August Pickups thread too much. Here are the 2 cartons again. The one on the right is similar in design to the pack shown, which has 1888 printed on the inside (I believe). It has been my belief that the N175 cards came in the pack shown (which came in the box shown). As for dating them I will just put them both at circa 1887. Pack and card collecting is a lot of fun and the items are quite a bit scarcer, many times, than the cards they are associated with. The cards were made to be collected, not so much the packaging.

[Jay Wolt]

Wow! Fantastic pickup! Congrats!

[Matvoo]

Wow thats amazing

[Joe_G.]

I love these items Leon. The Gypsy Queen baseball card issues are so rare and a lot of mystery surrounds some of the items (California League GQs for example). I also enjoy collecting the packs the cards came in but not enough packs to go around. Beautiful packs and cartons.

[kamikidEFFL]

Simply amazing. If you don't mind me asking what do boxes usually run for. Incase I come across one sometime.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Joe_G.

I love these items Leon. The Gypsy Queen baseball card issues are so rare and a lot of mystery surrounds some of the items (California League GQs for example). I also enjoy collecting the packs the cards came in but not enough packs to go around. Beautiful packs and cartons.

Thanks Joe et al,
Yes, the tobacciana aspect of our cards is a lot of fun to collect and research. I know a lot of collectors enjoy it as much or more than I do (and I enjoy it a lot.) To be clear I already had the Carton and pack, of which I had 2 at one time, that are more white and just recently picked up the very colorful carton. Also, while I thought I had kept the other pack similar to this, without a stamp, I kept the one with a stamp as can be seen in this 400 dpi scan. It's sort of good news bad news; bad part is the printed inscription can't be read. The good part is the exact dating of the pack can be done as a stamp and overprint are present. I believe this says "1887".

and to answer the question on value, in a major auction each carton is around $800-$1200.....the pack would be 2x-3x that....in my biased opinion....

[Jacker_ Cracks]

Very nice Leon!

[Joe_G.]

Based on the packs I have studied, I believe your overprint reads as follows:

Manufr No. 40
Third District N.Y.
Nov I 1887

Although it almost looks like yours might say No 42 and your "I" should be a "1" after November. All other Goodwin & Co. packs I've studied list the month followed by a 1. I know baseball cards were distributed in packs at least into the month of October in 1888 (one of my packs has a baseball card notice stamped on the side) so this could have contained a card as well (late 1887 card).

[steve B]

There's an online image modifier designed specifically for bringing up images of cancels. Retroreveal if I remember the name right. The demos I've seen are pretty impressive but I haven't tried it myself. It would probably do a good job on hard to read handstamps on cards too.

I read the cancel essentially the same way Joe does. The "I" should be a "1". Tax stamps were usually required to be cancelled with the date of use, but in practice were only done once a month (Or used the same cancel for the whole month )

Steve B

[jerrys]

My understanding is that the GQ cigarette packs that were contained in box on the left did not have insert cards. The GQ packs shown were held in the box on the right and carried N162 cards.

[canjond]

Here's my countertop display, which is similar to Leon's. I had a second (similar) carton at one time, too, but ended up selling it a while back.

[1880nonsports]

pretty clean shown below. Wish I had a pack to go with it....
I agree that the ancillary peripherals like packs and cartons and advertising pieces are more scarce and elusive. What makes the GQ cartons so special is the graphics.
Along the same lines - what was in the OJ carton as far as cards? I have a "show card" (often called a store card) featuring the box and an 1880's copyright.

[kkkkandp]

I am very jealous of all your counter display owners. They are spectacular.

All I have (other than my Old Judge cards) is one cigarette pack, an advertising head, and an ornate, letter-sized Old Judge envelope.

[1880nonsports]

is the soldier with #7 - I have a couple I would trade 2 for 1...........

[jerrys]

I hoped that someone would have commented on my earlier post.

Nine years ago I wrote an article on early cigarette packs; it was published by SCD. The text in the article was slightly modified but the pictures that were set in position to show the reader the relationship between a pack and a card were reduced to a meaningless collage.

http://js-gallery.net/scd3-05.htm

This was the original submission:

http://js-gallery.net/packs.htm

As shown the N175 was attributed to the early GQ pack but after publication I received slight criticism for my assumption and advised that that pack was produced earlier than the cards. I am still without proof of a date.

[Leon]

Jerry
I don't think your links are working? I have never seen proof of dating of the cartons but the overprint on my pack points to 1887. I assume the white carton is from that year too. With no proof of a card inside a pack I have just thought the ornate one would go better with the N162s and the white looking one with N175s. I would like to eventually see some definitive proof and hopefully some day we will find it.

[Joe_G.]

Leon, the links seem to work for me.

Jerry, thanks for posting your research, I find it very interesting. We do know that the N175s were issued in 1887, likely later in the year while N162s are certainly an 1888 issue. Leon's overprint dates his pack very close to, if not within, the N175 run. The same pack could have continued into 1888 when the N162s were issued. I hope more details surface with time but lean towards thinking N175s were distributed in the pack with the overprint. Jerry, have you been able to study overprint(s) on the ornate GQ packs?

[1880nonsports]

not much has changed. I haven't thought much about it since relinquishing my pack. Time to re-visit the subject I suppose as my interest temporarily piqued.

few quick thoughts before I review Jerry's article.
Both cartons might have contained packs that contained inserts.
It makes sense that the one on the left is earlier despite it being more ornate as the "straight cut" verbiage and use of a label not sized for the box on the other suggests a contemporary or later issue. That said - I don't think the one on the right REPLACED the one on the left and expect the one on the left continued to be used. Perhaps the "SC" carton was to address a seperate (and smaller) segment of the market.

Both packs might have contained a card. and the one with a cancel appears within the correct time frame. Not sure about the photo cards but generally sets of the lithographed inserts were inserted all at the same time and all within a small window. I think the N162's would most likely have been in the box on the left. The GQ's - no idea.

[jerrys]

Leon, sorry about the link. I can not find anything wrong.

Joe, where can I find some GQ packs to study?

The GQs are conjecture.


Several ornate GQ cigarette boxes exist but the plainer GQ box is possibly unique.

[Joe_G.]

Hello Jerry, I thought that maybe you had some information, perhaps some overprints on the ornate packs, that led you to the believe that the N175s were matched to them while the later N162s were matched to the more plain packs. With Leon's overprint now entering the discussion, do you still believe N175s were issued with the ornate packs?

[jerrys]

I am sure the tobacco companies did not start and stop design and product changes by the calendar. There must have been an overlap of the older cards and packs blending with of the new. That November 1 product could have been the beginning of the last run of GQ cards - the N162s.........?

[rjackson44]

Very pretty leon

[E93]

Been away for a few days. Leon and others, those are phenomenal!
JimB

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by jerrys

I am sure the tobacco companies did not start and stop design and product changes by the calendar. There must have been an overlap of the older cards and packs blending with of the new. That November 1 product could have been the beginning of the last run of GQ cards - the N162s.........?

Could be, but there is pretty good evidence that the N175s date to 1887 and N162s date to 1888 based on player/team combos. Goodwin was always quick to update player moves. With the N162s, Dunlap is shown with Pittsburgh. Dunlap played 1887 w/ Detroit and would sign Pittsburgh contract in January of 1888 but not named Captain of the team until just before the start of the season. His N162 shows him as Captain of the Pittsburgh team. I believe the baseball card production and distribution mirrored the baseball season with tobacco pack inserts changing to other subject matter during the off season.

[jerrys]

Joe - sounds right.
The GQ order:
1887 N175 plain pack
Overlap
1888 N162 ornate pack

N175 cards are much scarcer than N162s. Why? The replacement offered -
ornate pack, better insert card, longer run, advertising, all....?

Any comments about attribution of the later cigarette packs in the article?

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