52 Topps question on Gray Face

[callou2131]

New to vintage and have a question.One of my Pcs is Luke Easter. He was my moms favorite player while growing up. Anyway I wanted to get a few replacement cards because of condition issues. I picked up a 52 off of ebay. When I got it I saw that it had a black back. The one I had was a red back., I know that the Blacks are from the first print run. I have also heard of Gray face cards. When looking at the printing colors, I think this may be a gray face. I may get it graded. I think it is a strong 6 or may get a 7. Just wondering if the black back gray faces are more scarce, and if they carry a premium?

[ALR-bishop]

My two Easters look the same as yours. You can find slight color differences in many first series cards, usually always a function of whether they are red or black backs. On some, Glaviano, Boone and Whemeier come to mind, the differences are very noticeable. There tends to be a slight premium for black back cards.

Cards 131-180 can be found with grey or cream backs. The grey are scarce and command a big premium, and the fronts of the greys do tend to be darker and less focused than the creams

[SMPEP]

There were at least two runs of black back cards (we know this because there are Sain/Page versions with the correct back and with the wrong back).

It appears to me (and George Vrechek who wrote an article that included this point) that there are a half dozen or so cards from the black back series that were originally printed with "grey" faces, and later without the grey faces. George hypothesizes that these were corrected at the same time as the Page/Sain error (and that's as good as any theory in my book).

To my knowledge, the Easter is NOT one of the cards that had a grey face version, and I do not think the card you showed has any variation to it.

Cheers,
Patrick

[ALR-bishop]

Good info Patrick, do you have a scan or example of one of the grey faces ?

Do you know if the Super 52 set that sold in H&S included any of those. The description says (see Link in Campos thread) there were 91black backs = 11 variants, but does not list them all

[Cardboard Junkie]

I've been collecting 52's since the fifties....never heard of gray face cards. ? Dave. Examples please.

[SMPEP]

Here's the link to George's article (#4 under what else at the end is the only info on the grey faces):
http://www.oldbaseball.com/refs/5253printing.html

honestly, I don't consider this much of a variation. I have a few that are arguably the grey faces but the differences are so subtle that I do not consider them true variations (and both Boone and Kretlow have much bigger variations). I think the Crandall face variation is more obvious and distinct ... and that one is hard to spot too.

I don't know exactly what was included in the master set as variations for the black backs, but the Boone, Kretlow and Wehmeier are undoubtedly three of them (in addition to page/sain). Probably the Parnell as well.

Cheers,
Patrick

[Cardboard Junkie]

That's kind of vague. I gotta see some examples before I believe it. Dave.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

My two Easters look the same as yours. You can find slight color differences in many first series cards, usually always a function of whether they are red or black backs. On some, Glaviano, Boone and Whemeier come to mind, the differences are very noticeable. There tends to be a slight premium for black back cards.

Cards 131-180 can be found with grey or cream backs. The grey are scarce and command a big premium, and the fronts of the greys do tend to be darker and less focused than the creams

Al,

It doesn't really say. Here is the HS link for the auction:

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=59354

The description mentions 2 catalogued variations in the and 9 uncatalogued variations in black backs 1st series. The description also notes there were "29 color/print" variants in the set.

Z Wheat

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

That's kind of vague. I gotta see some examples before I believe it. Dave.

I agree Dave. All of my Black Back cards have a " grayish " face which is a very common trait. In the case of the Easter cards shown, just looking at the front of the cards it is easy to tell which is the Black Back and the Red Back. As to the original posters thinking to grade the Black Back, I do not see the card as a 6 or 7. He should be happy with a 5. Don't waste the time or money to grade the card. Just enjoy it as it is.

[Cardboard Junkie]

There are tens of thousand of 52 Topps on ebay right now.....show me one example of this grey face variation among black backs.....I'm calling Bull$hit!

[Republicaninmass]

I'll 2nd! I've never heard of it, however the black/red backs do have different printing on the fronts. Glaviano, for example

[savedfrommyspokes]

In looking through my red and black backs, it is clear that the red backs have more vibrant colors on the front. I looked at one card, the #57 Lopat card, and the cap and bill of the cap on the RB is colored all one color, while the BB version has some "shading" evident on both the bill and cap itself. In looking through the BB examples listed on ebay, most have the identical shading as mine, while two of the PSA graded BB versions have different amounts of shading on the cap than the others. The first scan is my RB, 2nd is the BB with the "shading" on the cap.

Here are two BB copies with the different shading on the caps than the other BB #57 cards listed on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-E...item51b1eb176a


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-TOPPS-B...item2581945ae1


Could either of these two ebay listings be the "grey faced" variations?

[GoldenAge50s]

I'm w/ David P on this one! I have all the '52's I bought as a kid & of course been collecting since the late '40's & have never heard of 'Grey-face" '52 Topps.

[ALR-bishop]

As I said earlier, I see a lot of front differences in the first series depending on whether the card is a red or black back, but had never heard about grey faces versus clear faces in the black backs.

But, Saved listed a link from a George Vrececk article which discusses his theory that due to the Sain/Page error, Topps likely did do a second printing of the black backs. I have a lot of respect for George's work in the variant arena. In the article he discusses the differences in color background of the Boone and Kretlow cards...and those differences do exist. If there was a second printing of the BBs then there likely are other minor color differences. Not sure though about grey faces other that in the latter Canadian series.

But, interesting discussion anyway

[Cardboard Junkie]

Yup....George talks a good game. Dave

[SMPEP]

I went through my dupes last night and couldn't find any convincing examples of a grey face.

At one point, I thought I had one card that if you squinted hard appeared to have a greyer than normal face but I guess I traded it. It was not very convincing to me as a variation so I guess I didn't even save it.

Cheers,
Patrick

[tombocombo]

1952 topps first series black backs have many more variations than the obvious sain/page boone whemeier scraborough. i will give you guys another variation in the first series it is glaviano front not back has distinct variation.

[ALR-bishop]

I mentioned that one in the 2nd post. It is not a color background variant like Scarborough and some others. The front logo has two distinctive different colors, but as far as I know the difference is always a function of it being a black or red back. On the other hand there are two different color backgrounds on Boone, for both the red and black back versions.

I view most of these as printing variants rather than variations like the Sain /Page or the black versus red backs. But I still collect them. Would be happy to swap lists with you

[Cardboard Junkie]

I'm pretty sure you have them all covered Al. Is your grey stock canadian 52s complete? Oh, and how many 52 topps for a master master set..about 550 or so I'm guessing. Dave.

[ALR-bishop]

There is an earlier thread in here that discusses/ debates the makeup of a master set. I think Ted Z and others posit a traditional number there that includes the catalog variations,including the grey back Canadians and the 3 DPs. But if you look at the CL for the Super Set in the H & S auction ( link in the beginning of the Campos thread, or google H&S 1952 super set), it lists several additional print defect /variants not in the traditional lists and totals 579. I do not think everyone would buy into all of them, but it would expand the list if followed. I am going to be out of town for awhile but when back plan to compare my list with the list for that super set to see if I have any not on that list. I know I lack some on that super list and have started looking for them :-/

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

There is an earlier thread in here that discusses/ debates the makeup of a master set. I think Ted Z and others posit a traditional number there that includes the catalog variations,including the grey back Canadians and the 3 DPs. But if you look at the CL for the Super Set in the H & S auction ( link in the beginning of the Campos thread, or google H&S 1952 super set), it lists several additional print defect /variants not in the traditional lists and totals 579. I do not think everyone would buy into all of them, but it would expand the list if followed. I am going to be out of town for awhile but when back plan to compare my list with the list for that super set to see if I have any not on that list. I know I lack some on that super list and have started looking for them :-/

Cool!...I am interested. Dave.