Cutting cards from an uncut sheet????

[UKCardGuy]

The 2 hour interview thread got me thinking about uncut sheets.

I'm sure this is going to get some heated opinions but besides the travesty of destroying a rare uncut sheet, what are everyone's thoughts on cutting cards from an uncut sheet?

I can see an argument that a card cut from an uncut sheet is still a legit card. My gut tells me that cutting an uncut sheet is just wrong. But As I went through the different scenarios in my head, I came up with both objections and rationale.

• If the card is cut to the original manufacturers measurements, is it Authentic trimmed? Or Authentic Altered? If so, what's been altered? Because they were never intended to be issued as uncut sheets.
• What's the difference to having the card cut in the factory in 1909 or 1955 rather than 2024? Is the issue that the card's been cut with non-OEM equipment? Or that it was cut outside the original time period it was manufactured?
• If the issue is to do with the time period, then is a card cut from an uncut sheet the equivalent of a Type 2 photo?
• If the issue is that the card was cut without OEM equipment, then if someone had access to Topps's original cutting machines, would it be OK to cut them in 2024 if using the original equipment?
• What if it was an uncut sheet of strip cards (e.g W514 or W551s). Is it OK because those cards were meant to be hand cut? I know that people cut Hostess Panels to submit a single card for grading. This doesn't seem to raise alarm bells with anyone.
• Is it because the original manufacturer didn't do the cutting? If so, can someone bring an early Topps sheet back to Fanatics/Topps for them to cut? Would it be OK then?

Let's hear your thoughts.

[BioCRN]

I think anyone who hasn't seen Evan Mathis's collection of uncut sheets should be very concerned about their 1950s-1970s graded collection...or excited there's going to be more high end examples leaking to the market now and in coming years.

[Snowman]

Marshall Fogel's PSA 10 1952 Mantle would like to vote twice in this poll.

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Marshall Fogel's PSA 10 1952 Mantle would like to vote twice in this poll.

Agreed. Like stated in the 1952 Rosen find thread, some of us believe / heard Rosen found uncut sheets along the way. This might explain why a full 52 high number uncut sheet was never found if I recall correctly. A partial one was displayed at 1-2 Nationals though in the 1980s (1981 or 1982 and 1988?)

I found this odd since Woody Gelman (worked for topps and sold tons of overstock through his Card Collectors Company) sold tons of seldom seen Topps items

[OhioLawyerF5]

To me, the issue is that once an item leaves the manufacturer and gets into the market, that's what the item is. A card cut at the factory and distributed in that form by the manufacturer, is and always will be a card. An uncut sheet that leaves the factory that way, is and always will be an uncut sheet. When it is cut up later, it becomes an altered uncut sheet.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

When it is cut up later, it becomes an altered uncut sheet.

What if the original manufacturer cuts it up later?

What if it’s cut not by the original manufacturer but the original manufacturers equipment is used?

What if it were cut using original manufacturer equipment by the employee that did the cutting only 50yrs later?

If Topps cuts a grouping of last years sheets tomorrow does that need to be disclosed to the buyer?

[swarmee]

It's just silly the rationale people are attempting to use to legitimize hacking up uncut sheets to replicate cards that were meant to be cut at the factory decades ago. The value in a card that has survived in top shape despite being released in packs 100 years ago and survived in high grade is what the grading industry was built on. However, incompetence by the grading companies in not detecting alterations does not make altering cards okay.

If the card was released in cut down format (Topps/Bowman/T206 etc trading card), it's not okay to cut it from a sheet and pass it off as original (even in a grading slab with a number grade). If it was only released as sheets and intended to be cut by the customer (Hostess/Post/Jello/strips), then those were intended to be cut by the customer and can be cut now.

SGC offered a sheet cutting service with grading, just a few years ago, but they either didn't get many takers because they were putting "sheet-cut" on the flips or because people would rather do it in the privacy of their own houses to scam.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

It's just silly the rationale people are attempting to use to legitimize hacking up uncut sheets to replicate cards that were meant to be cut at the factory decades ago. The value in a card that has survived in top shape despite being released in packs 100 years ago and survived in high grade is what the grading industry was built on. However, incompetence by the grading companies in not detecting alterations does not make altering cards okay.

If the card was released in cut down format (Topps/Bowman/T206 etc trading card), it's not okay to cut it from a sheet and pass it off as original (even in a grading slab with a number grade). If it was only released as sheets and intended to be cut by the customer (Hostess/Post/Jello/strips), then those were intended to be cut by the customer and can be cut now.

SGC offered a sheet cutting service with grading, just a few years ago, but they either didn't get many takers because they were putting "sheet-cut" on the flips or because people would rather do it in the privacy of their own houses to scam.

I'm not trying to create any rationalization. Personally, I don't think sheets should be cut up. But as I thought through the objections objectively, I could see arguments both ways. So I tried to list out what my specific objections were. Was I opposed to the timing, the equipment, etc.?

I like how you've put it, "The value in a card that has survived in top shape despite being released in packs 100 years ago..." Do by cutting a sheet, somebody is cheating those of us who are buying cards from packs as they were originally issued.

I didn't know that SGC used to offer a sheet cutting service. I like the concept though because it's noting such cards as "Sheet Cut" in the same way that PSA qualifies later photos created from the original negatives as Type 2. That allows the buyer to make an informed choice. Do I want the original pack issued or the same card that was cut from a sheet later.

But with the money to made, it wouldn't surprise me if a card manufacturer started buying up sheets to cut them and ew-issue them in a new mystery box. I mean, they cut up bats, autos and game used jerseys. Cutting up sheets that were originally intended to be cut up doesn't seem far-fetched.

[bnorth]

I will go the other way. I have cut up a LOT of sheets over the years. I used a professional matting cutter that cut every card to the exact size. I never had anything graded and when I sold the cards I told everyone I cut them from a sheet. I mainly cut up junk era error sheets but would have no problem cutting up pretty much any sheet with very fer exceptions.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Personally, I don't think sheets should be cut up.

+1…. I’m a big fan of leaving everything alone.

[NATCARD]

That SHEET Cut scenario was done for me. I was in the porcess of cutting up hundreds of proof and progressive proof sheets from the original Topps auction in 1989 for a client. The "SHEET CUT" was used for the cards they slabbed for the proofs. as Covid hit, the process came to a screeching halt and has never started up again. They will no longer slab these cards. Jeff W

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by NATCARD

That SHEET Cut scenario was done for me. I was in the porcess of cutting up hundreds of proof and progressive proof sheets from the original Topps auction in 1989 for a client. The "SHEET CUT" was used for the cards they slabbed for the proofs. as Covid hit, the process came to a screeching halt and has never started up again. They will no longer slab these cards. Jeff W

Hi Jeff, SGC is still slabbing secondary market sheet cut cards but it’s rare. Sometimes I wonder if you need to know someone or better yet, be someone ‘famous’ in their eyes w/in the hobby.

PSA is also grading secondary market cut proofs (e.g. 1973 candy lids proofs listed on eBay). They just grade them authentic. I had many conversations with SGC since my 1977 Topps Baltimore Reggie Jackson 3-color proof purchase. Got nowhere. Will try the PSA route next.

I think it’s important both of these already graded Reggie proofs are in a grader’s DB that can be looked-up at any point. Still fathom why SGC didn’t enter these 2 proofs into their DB when graded prior to the 2019 REA auction. This is why I would even think about getting the cards re-holdered plus it’s also good to know the cards can be re-cased in-case anything happens to the slab (e.g. a crack which happens to me a lot in my SGC graded cards) .

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

What if the original manufacturer cuts it up later?



What if it’s cut not by the original manufacturer but the original manufacturers equipment is used?



What if it were cut using original manufacturer equipment by the employee that did the cutting only 50yrs later?



If Topps cuts a grouping of last years sheets tomorrow does that need to be disclosed to the buyer?

My answer already addresses those questions. What was the item's condition when it was released from the manufacturer originally. That's what the item forever is.

And if Topps cuts a previous sheet later, and releases it, the law requires they put the current year of release on the copyright, so as to not deceive.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

And if Topps cuts a previous sheet later, and releases it, the law requires they put the current year of release on the copyright, so as to not deceive.

What law is this?

Not saying you are wrong…..but it sure does sound like a gigantic pile of bullshit.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

What law is this?



Not saying you are wrong…..but it sure does sound like a gigantic pile of bullshit.

I'm not saying copyright law requires a particular date (in fact there is no requirement to have a copyright notice at all anymore). Copyright laws are about protecting intellectual property, not fraud prevention. It would be considered fraudulent to re-release a previous year's product without indicating so in the collectibles market.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

What law is this?

Not saying you are wrong…..but it sure does sound like a gigantic pile of bullshit.

What else would you expect from a guy who includes 'Lawyer' as part of his screen name on a baseball card forum?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

My answer already addresses those questions. What was the item's condition when it was released from the manufacturer originally. That's what the item forever is.

And if Topps cuts a previous sheet later, and releases it, the law requires they put the current year of release on the copyright, so as to not deceive.

That last bit is fascinating.
I'm thinking that would require registering a new copyright for the recently cut card from an old sheet.

I don't think they do that for the buybacks stamped with various logos. They might not even indicate a copyright or trademark for those logos (Could totally be wrong there, I haven't looked at the couple I have in a long time. )

[steve B]

I can think of instances where the manufacturer "reprinted" cards.
Or, made cards that were outside of general production, but were not readily identifiable as different.

When Topps had the "send us money and wrappers and a list of what cards you don't have and we'll send them to you" promotion.
They had so much demand for stars and rookies they printed special sheets to provide those cards. as far as I know the cards from those sheets are not identifiable unless you have an uncut strip or block.

Upper deck claimed a production figure for a hockey set, and later made more of them. Only found out because the first batch was packed on its own and the second batch was packed with other cards. (they also later faked yugioh cards which they were the licensed printer/distributor for. And apparently mostly got away with it. ) The "new" cards may be identifiable, I don't have enough from that set to know for sure.

[steve B]

My thoughts in red.

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

The 2 hour interview thread got me thinking about uncut sheets.

I'm sure this is going to get some heated opinions but besides the travesty of destroying a rare uncut sheet, what are everyone's thoughts on cutting cards from an uncut sheet?

I'm generally against it. of course there are always exceptions

I can see an argument that a card cut from an uncut sheet is still a legit card. My gut tells me that cutting an uncut sheet is just wrong. But As I went through the different scenarios in my head, I came up with both objections and rationale.

• If the card is cut to the original manufacturers measurements, is it Authentic trimmed? Or Authentic Altered? If so, what's been altered? Because they were never intended to be issued as uncut sheets.
  I would prefer seeing them as altered. Especially sets that were issued as uncut sheets - 84 Nestles and sets issued both ways 83 Topps.
• What's the difference to having the card cut in the factory in 1909 or 1955 rather than 2024? Is the issue that the card's been cut with non-OEM equipment? Or that it was cut outside the original time period it was manufactured?
  Both, in some cases it could be very difficult to tell. The equipment changed very little for decades. There may still be differences.
• If the issue is to do with the time period, then is a card cut from an uncut sheet the equivalent of a Type 2 photo?
  That's an interesting way to look at it. The card is an original card, just not factory cut. The key is that in most cases it's done to increase the value and if not disclosed.... Ok, lets not go down that path.
• If the issue is that the card was cut without OEM equipment, then if someone had access to Topps's original cutting machines, would it be OK to cut them in 2024 if using the original equipment?
  I think not. But I can see someone disagreeing.
• What if it was an uncut sheet of strip cards (e.g W514 or W551s). Is it OK because those cards were meant to be hand cut? I know that people cut Hostess Panels to submit a single card for grading. This doesn't seem to raise alarm bells with anyone.
  My preference would be to leave an uncut strip of strip cards uncut.
  I'm sort of against seeing hand cut cards graded. I totally get that I'm very much in the minority thinking an A grade should be the only grade for sets like Hostess. That being said, bowing to reality, I'm not 100% against very roughly cut cards from boxes being tidied up a bit. It would depend on the set, If I had a 1910 orange border with big portions of the box sides showing I wouldn't want it cut. Hostess with thousands being available maybe? Box cards sure, the twinkies ones not so much.
• Is it because the original manufacturer didn't do the cutting? If so, can someone bring an early Topps sheet back to Fanatics/Topps for them to cut? Would it be OK then?
  That just wouldn't work, the current way of getting the sheets to be single cards is not at all the same process as what was done years ago. It's obvious with the cards in hand (and for at least some sets, not every edge was done the same way. )

Let's hear your thoughts.