Braves want Heritage to pull Hank Aaron items from auction

[jayshum]

https://www.cllct.com/sports-collect...on-memorabilia

[CardPadre]

Oh, that's awesome. Good stuff, can't wait to see how it plays out.

[The Detroit Collector]

I mean a lot of the way these companies "photo match" or "authenticate" pieces from decades ago, is really grey and sketchy.

Eric

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by The Detroit Collector

I mean a lot of the way these companies "photo match" or "authenticate" pieces from decades ago, is really grey and sketchy.

Eric

Yup, and it only started very recently and it's been giving me that red flag uneasiness feeling for a bit now.

Used to take a lots of luck and a photographer being in the right place at the right time with a crystal clear photo and the right person having access to that photo, for anything to be convincingly photo-matched.

Now all of a sudden they're matching up equipment to multiple games across large swaths of time...and declaring it pretty definitively.

Sometimes I think they're using the same AI program that JollyRodgersRelics uses to try to convince himself and others that photo of Ernest Borgnine is actually Cap Anson in civvies.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by The Detroit Collector

I mean a lot of the way these companies "photo match" or "authenticate" pieces from decades ago, is really grey and sketchy.

Eric

I will make a prediction now that I guarantee will happen at some point, with spectacular ramifications to the GU community.

There shall be a prominent photo match company that will assert a jersey or bat was definitely used at some very historic moment. With such assertion, this item will sell for huge money. However, another very similar item will surface, and a different respected photo match authority will declare this item is, in fact, the real, genuine GU jersey or bat, and not the previously authenticated one.

Much chaos shall ensue.

-Nostradamus

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I will make a prediction now that I guarantee will happen at some point, with spectacular ramifications to the GU community.

There shall be a prominent photo match company that will assert a jersey or bat was definitely used at some very historic moment. With such assertion, this item will sell for huge money. However, another very similar item will surface, and a different respected photo match authority will declare this item is, in fact, the real, genuine GU jersey or bat, and not the previously authenticated one.

Much chaos shall ensue.

-Nostradamus

Looking forward to see how this plays out.

If you look at some of the "so-called" photo-matches done today, they are not clear-cut matches. Enlarging images (especially older ones) can distort the actual image, making you having to look hard at it to see if it's an actual photo-match. Many people just accept it today. Hey, I got a letter saying it's a match, so I'm good to go. Not true in many cases. I've been burned a few times myself, and learned my lesson, so always proceed with caution.

[swarmee]

That stuff has already happened: https://www.actionnetwork.com/nba/mi...-certification
https://petapixel.com/2023/09/06/fak...-jersey-fraud/

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by SyrNy1960

Looking forward to see how this plays out.

If you look at some of the "so-called" photo-matches done today, they are not clear-cut matches. Enlarging images (especially older ones) can distort the actual image, making you having to look hard at it to see if it's an actual photo-match. Many people just accept it today. Hey, I got a letter saying it's a match, so I'm good to go. Not true in many cases. I've been burned a few times myself, and learned my lesson, so always proceed with caution.

Photo-matching can never ever ever ever be used to establish an item is authentic. Photo-matching is what is referred to as a negative test. It can prove what something is not; it cannot establish what something is. If an item does not match, then one can conclusively say it is not real. If an item matches, the most one can say is that it might be real.

In regard to multi-million dollar jerseys, I can assure you that as I write this there are people who are examining every known photograph of a player wearing a particular jersey at a particular time to be certain that their subsequent manufacture of a forgery MADE WITH GENUINE MATERIALS VINTAGE TO THE PERIOD OF ORIGINAL MANUFACTURE matches every discernible feature shown on the photographs. For my dollar, unless the item comes with persuasive provenance it would not satisfy my comfort level to purchase. And by persuasive provenance, I mean more than just a great story of how the item has been in the family for so many years or was obtained by some person who knew the player or worked for the team. For stories such as those, unless they are corroborated by a detective agency, they are worthless. And when have you ever heard of an AH hiring such a detective agency?

We're talking about 7 and 8 figure items here, and if that fact alone doesn't incentivize every known forger extant in the human race, then nothing will.

[swarmee]

Weird; I would figure the statute of limitations on theft in Georgia would be too long to have any kind of claim to the items, if they were taken 50 years ago and transferred ownership 8 years ago.
Or do the Braves claim they also own (or had in team storage the same bases)?

It wouldn't surprise me if the Baseball Hall of Fame was sent the wrong base either, if the original Braves employee planned to keep them all for himself.

[cgjackson222]

Very interesting:

"The Atlanta Braves remain deeply concerned with Heritage’s lack of diligence and complete failure to authenticate the Disputed Items," the letter said. "We are conducting an investigation into the authenticity of the remaining Disputed Items and into how Heritage and any other party came into possession of them. If any of the Disputed Items are found to have been acquired illegally, they are the rightful property of the Atlanta Braves and should be returned to the Atlanta Braves immediately.

"And if any of the Disputed Items are found to be inauthentic, Heritage’s sale of the fraudulent items would negatively impact the value of the actual items, causing irreparable harm to the Atlanta Braves by potentially diminishing the financial and historic value of the sports memorabilia at issue."

Strong words. Not a good look for Heritage if any of the Braves' claims turn out to be true.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Very interesting:

"The Atlanta Braves remain deeply concerned with Heritage’s lack of diligence and complete failure to authenticate the Disputed Items," the letter said. "We are conducting an investigation into the authenticity of the remaining Disputed Items and into how Heritage and any other party came into possession of them. If any of the Disputed Items are found to have been acquired illegally, they are the rightful property of the Atlanta Braves and should be returned to the Atlanta Braves immediately.

"And if any of the Disputed Items are found to be inauthentic, Heritage’s sale of the fraudulent items would negatively impact the value of the actual items, causing irreparable harm to the Atlanta Braves by potentially diminishing the financial and historic value of the sports memorabilia at issue."

Strong words. Not a good look for Heritage if any of the Braves' claims turn out to be true.

I think Heritage just needs to bite the bullet on this one and take the loss, whatever it may be.

Will do more harm to them if they follow through with the auction.

Not sure they should just hand them over to the Braves either, as they are just a consignee and not the owner of the items in question either. Have the Braves deal directly with the consignor and not Heritage.

Also, if these are actually legit, is it entirely possible, all of these items would have been lost to time if the groundskeeper in question didn't bag up all these items and curate them for the last 50 years?

This is 1974 we're talking about. There was no known collectible market for bases at the time that I'm aware of. Teams weren't pulling every piece of memorabilia they could think of to sell on the secondary market, or even to put it in the stadium museum.

Braves want them NOW...but did they want them in 1974?

Also, Braves don't seem to be sure if they are "real" or "inauthentic"...but they want them "returned" to them either way. Do the Braves claim to have the "real" bases or not?

So many questions.....so much I don't know and never will.

[roarfrom34]

and to further complicate matters, Lelands auctioned off what was supposed to be 2nd base from the historic 715 game over 20 years ago:

https://lelands.com/bids/second-base...h-homerun-game

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I think Heritage just needs to bite the bullet on this one and take the loss, whatever it may be.

Will do more harm to them if they follow through with the auction.

Not sure they should just hand them over to the Braves either, as they are just a consignee and not the owner of the items in question either. Have the Braves deal directly with the consignor and not Heritage.

Also, if these are actually legit, is it entirely possible, all of these items would have been lost to time if the groundskeeper in question didn't bag up all these items and curate them for the last 50 years?

This is 1974 we're talking about. There was no known collectible market for bases at the time that I'm aware of. Teams weren't pulling every piece of memorabilia they could think of to sell on the secondary market, or even to put it in the stadium museum.

Braves want them NOW...but did they want them in 1974?

Also, Braves don't seem to be sure if they are "real" or "inauthentic"...but they want them "returned" to them either way. Do the Braves claim to have the "real" bases or not?

So many questions.....so much I don't know and never will.

Not sure how it does more harm following thru with the auctions especially on the jerseys. No one knows the ownership and what happened on items from 50-70 years ago. So I think the Braves claims are just BS and they want to get the items without spending money to get them back.

But dealing with the bases, they should probably be pulled because now because of the one in the HOF and the other possible lelands one puts the heritage ones into more question.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by swarmee

It wouldn't surprise me if the Baseball Hall of Fame was sent the wrong base either, if the original Braves employee planned to keep them all for himself.

I think there's a relatively high possibility of that being the case.

Here's the lot of bases in question. Was harder to find then I expected. I haven't a clue if they are legit or not.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...iption-071515#

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I think there's a relatively high possibility of that being the case.

Here's the lot of bases in question. Was harder to find then I expected. I haven't a clue if they are legit or not.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...iption-071515#

The HOF says they got the base directly from Hank Aaron in 1982. That’s as good a story as any here.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

The HOF says they got the base directly from Hank Aaron in 1982. That’s as good a story as any here.

Somebody gave Hank Aaron a base. I doubt he dug it out of the ground himself.

The HOF could very well have the real base...they just as easily could not.

Yeah, I'm cynical. I've seen too many items in museums and personal collections, obtained from the athlete themselves, that don't pass the sniff test.

Nat Fleischer ran The Ring Boxing Museum and had a ton of gloves on display going back to the 1950's and 60's that were given to him by the boxers themselves from various "important" fights. Half of them weren't even the right brand of glove LOL.

I don't think it's any type of purposeful deception from these athletes. This stuff wasn't even worth anything back in the day. I just don't think they were hung up on the accuracy of such things, as we are today. Especially since this has become a "business" as such.

[Kevlo17]

I’ve been increasingly skeptical of any game used items that heritage puts up for auction. For instance, they had a game used Lou Brock hat from the 70s that was very clearly a hat from the early 90s. I reached out to them about it and they apologized and pulled it from the auction. Was amazing that it was even there in the first place. Either very amateurish or with bad intentions…


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[gonefishin]

I will state that all my interactions, albeit limited, with Heritage have been very positive and I consider them to be very reputable.

Recently, there have been some serious issues with the top tier auction houses ranging from the theft at Memory Lane to this with Heritage. Makes me wonder what's going on, and if maybe processes aren't being adhered to as in the past.

It's always, always, always, about money. If anyone states anything different, it's not the truth.

[gregndodgers]

I once bought what was billed as a possible game used ABC Astros batting helmet, no flaps, that is very rare from the early 70s. The photos looked spectacular. Then I received the helmet and could still smell the fresh paint used to create the star logo on the front. Ahh, the smell of a fake.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by gonefishin

I will state that all my interactions, albeit limited, with Heritage have been very positive and I consider them to be very reputable.

Recently, there have been some serious issues with the top tier auction houses ranging from the theft at Memory Lane to this with Heritage. Makes me wonder what's going on, and if maybe processes aren't being adhered to as in the past.

It's always, always, always, about money. If anyone states anything different, it's not the truth.

Don't forget the Boston Garter sh*tshow.

[CardPadre]

Back in the box it goes.

[todeen]

There is an interview with Andy Moog, goalie in the 80s and 90s, with Edmonton and Boston and Dallas. He has some of the most iconic hockey masks ever. They asked him in his interview if he still had any masks from his career. He said he didn't have any 80s masks or masks with the Bruins. His first famous mask was painted over for Olympics in the 1980s. Other masks were painted over as well if they were still in good condition for the next season. He said nobody cared what happened to them, and neither did he. And this was late 80s and early 90s when there was definitely a market for game used equipment!

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[steve B]

Originally Posted by todeen

There is an interview with Andy Moog, goalie in the 80s and 90s, with Edmonton and Boston and Dallas. He has some of the most iconic hockey masks ever. They asked him in his interview if he still had any masks from his career. He said he didn't have any 80s masks or masks with the Bruins. His first famous mask was painted over for Olympics in the 1980s. Other masks were painted over as well if they were still in good condition for the next season. He said nobody cared what happened to them, and neither did he. And this was late 80s and early 90s when there was definitely a market for game used equipment!

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One of my odd sports collectibles is bicycles built for or used by racers or teams mostly the crazy aero stuff from the 1980's up to just before 2000 when they were gradually made illegal for competition.

The image most people have is the riders especially on the national team being given nearly perfect bikes and other equipment.
After the first use, many were repainted, some more than once. And not a high quality repaint either. The brand labels were often just vinyl stickers, and the rebranding was simply spray can paint over the old stickers and new stickers added. The sponsor only cared if it was legible in photos or from a few yards away.

One of the reasons I sort of flinch when someone gets a bike with a number hanger but a paint job from a different manufacturer and wants to "restore" it.

The "helmets" are just fiberglass head fairings with a few bits of foam glued in. for one year that was done with some sort of contact cement that's still sticky. I talked to someone who knew a few of the racers, and mentioned that I thought the foam was badly replaced on ones I have. Nope, the athletes hated how the glue never totally dried and stuck to their hair. Later ones used a different glue.

[the 'stache]

Heritage just needs to end the auction, and eat whatever profit is lost. Reputation means everything in this hobby, now more than ever, and the whiff of fraud could be ruinous for an auction house.


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[Leon]

Wow. They did what you wanted! Amazing.

Now some schmuck owes them 24 Big Ones though.

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Heritage just needs to end the auction, and eat whatever profit is lost. Reputation means everything in this hobby, now more than ever, and the whiff of fraud could be ruinous for an auction house.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Leon

Wow. They did what you wanted! Amazing.

Now some schmuck owes them 24 Big Ones though.

I am confused. Didn't all of the Aaron/Braves items sell?
https://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-b...NRO5E64ZAR65E/

· 1954 Hank Aaron game worn and signed Milwaukee Braves rookie jersey. Sold for $2.1 million.

1974 Hank Aaron game worn Atlanta Braves jersey. Sold for $138,000.

· 1974 Hank Aaron game worn Atlanta Braves cap. Sold for $9,000.

· 1948 Jim Prendergast game worn Boston Braves satin uniform. Auction extended 14 days.

· 1957 Bob Buhl game worn Milwaukee Braves uniform. Sold for $4,320.

· 1958 Joe Adcock game worn Milwaukee Braves jersey. Sold for $8,400.

· 1958 Del Crandall Gold Glove Award. Sold for $7,200.

[Leon]

Yes, it all sold but I was referencing the jersey. Sorry 'bout that. Wrong reference. I had the jersey on my mind.

Seems the auction went on schedule, and brought the prices, even though there were some naysayers.

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I am confused. Didn't all of the Aaron/Braves items sell?
https://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-b...NRO5E64ZAR65E/

· 1954 Hank Aaron game worn and signed Milwaukee Braves rookie jersey. Sold for $2.1 million.

1974 Hank Aaron game worn Atlanta Braves jersey. Sold for $138,000.

· 1974 Hank Aaron game worn Atlanta Braves cap. Sold for $9,000.

· 1948 Jim Prendergast game worn Boston Braves satin uniform. Auction extended 14 days.

· 1957 Bob Buhl game worn Milwaukee Braves uniform. Sold for $4,320.

· 1958 Joe Adcock game worn Milwaukee Braves jersey. Sold for $8,400.

· 1958 Del Crandall Gold Glove Award. Sold for $7,200.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I am confused. Didn't all of the Aaron/Braves items sell?
https://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-b...NRO5E64ZAR65E/

· 1954 Hank Aaron game worn and signed Milwaukee Braves rookie jersey. Sold for $2.1 million.

1974 Hank Aaron game worn Atlanta Braves jersey. Sold for $138,000.

· 1974 Hank Aaron game worn Atlanta Braves cap. Sold for $9,000.

· 1948 Jim Prendergast game worn Boston Braves satin uniform. Auction extended 14 days.

· 1957 Bob Buhl game worn Milwaukee Braves uniform. Sold for $4,320.

· 1958 Joe Adcock game worn Milwaukee Braves jersey. Sold for $8,400.

· 1958 Del Crandall Gold Glove Award. Sold for $7,200.

The article you provided the link for indicated that home plate and the bases that were claimed to be from his 715th home run game were removed from the auction. Here's another link to an article about that:

https://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-b...LXVHKO5RIQXIA/

[gonefishin]

This morning while looking through my stash of vintage wire/AP photos, I came across the attached photo. I have hundreds.

Maybe we should ask Mr. Rice and the 2 guards what happened to the bases. It appears these gentlemen were deeply involved in the record setting event.

If there was that much security on the bat and balls for 714 and 715, did it cross anyone's mind at that time that ANYTHING to do with the event should be guarded?

Just a question.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Heritage just needs to end the auction, and eat whatever profit is lost. Reputation means everything in this hobby, now more than ever, and the whiff of fraud could be ruinous for an auction house.


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As sorry as I am to say it, this isn't even remotely true.