Card Interest Down? Not at the National.

[parkplace33]

That is my one big takeaway from the 2024 National. Pictures, videos, stories, this National was packed. I can't wait to see what the finally ticket sales are (Rich Klein)? I think this is good for the hobby in general and am excited to see what the rest of 2024 is like.

What is your National takeaway?

[isiahfan]

My cliff notes from Wed and Thur:

Parking/traffic was a nightmare - I didn't pay for parking either day as they just weren't properly checking. I came very early the second day to avoid the jam0

Entry - Not as bad a CHI last year...but I walked in with no ticket check the first day and probably could have done the same the second day had I not needed to sell my unused ticket from Day 1 - Please note I didn't do this in a sneaky fashion...rather walked right through the door solo without the cover of a crowd....not the first time this has happened at the N

Crowds - Felt like the the largest crowd of the 20 or so I have been to. This could have been aided by the parking fiasco, but felt getting front row access to most tables was difficult.

Merch - As someone that buys both modern/current and vintage of all sports, I have never seen so many modern picker style boxes/tables ($.10/$.25/$1). I also feel like there wasn't as much vintage percentage-wise as there used to be.

$$$ - For the most part I would say there were deals as usual for those willing to dig, but most of the current modern display cards were priced MUCH higher than comps, while the vintage seemed to have softened a bit. I always love that I can go to three straight tables and find the exact same modern card for $.10 then $1 then $10. Same goes for vintage for $1 - $5 - $25.

Misc. - They did a better job than ever in keeping the big Manufacturers/Breakers/AH set ups in the same area. Also the temperature/food/bathrooms were all good....the downstairs bathrooms were a bit a mess though.

[Huck]

I had plans to attend the National, but life got in the way. I really do enjoy the hobby. On another thread, I mentioned how the annual Beckett Price Guide opened my eyes to what was out there. NET54 really opened my eyes even wider as to what members of the hobby collect. Pennants? Pins? Who knew?

From the size of the daily crowds, the hobby is clearly healthy. However, as I read and watched the daily National recaps and videos (thanks to those who posted), I could not help but wonder is the hobby bubble proof? Manufactured scarcity of star players is the red meat that keeps folks rabid to break wax. In the end it is just fancy paper. Perhaps it is crypto currency generational effect, everything just keeps going up and up until it does not.

"Household Debt Climbs to $17.69 Trillion in First Quarter; Delinquency Rates Rise Again 

Total household debt rose by $184 billion to reach $17.69 trillion, according to the latest Quarterly Report on Household Debt and Credit. Mortgage balances increased by $190 billion to $12.44 trillion, while balances on auto loans climbed $9 billion to $1.62 trillion, continuing their upward trajectory. Credit card balances declined, as is typical for the first quarter, falling by $14 billion to $1.12 trillion. Nearly 9 percent of credit card balances and 8 percent of auto loans (annualized) transitioned into delinquency. "

Wow, $2.74 trillion in auto and credit card debt combined! Are card collectors just independently wealthy? Every so often the stock market gets frothy and a correction of 10% (or more) happens. Thus far the hobby seems to be immune from such a correction. Don't get caught holding the bag..............

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Huck

I had plans to attend the National, but life got in the way. I really do enjoy the hobby. On another thread, I mentioned how the annual Beckett Price Guide opened my eyes to what was out there. NET54 really opened my eyes even wider as to what members of the hobby collect. Pennants? Pins? Who knew?

From the size of the daily crowds, the hobby is clearly healthy. However, as I read and watched the daily National recaps and videos (thanks to those who posted), I could not help but wonder is the hobby bubble proof? Manufactured scarcity of star players is the red meat that keeps folks rabid to break wax. In the end it is just fancy paper. Perhaps it is crypto currency generational effect, everything just keeps going up and up until it does not.

"Household Debt Climbs to $17.69 Trillion in First Quarter; Delinquency Rates Rise Again 

Total household debt rose by $184 billion to reach $17.69 trillion, according to the latest Quarterly Report on Household Debt and Credit. Mortgage balances increased by $190 billion to $12.44 trillion, while balances on auto loans climbed $9 billion to $1.62 trillion, continuing their upward trajectory. Credit card balances declined, as is typical for the first quarter, falling by $14 billion to $1.12 trillion. Nearly 9 percent of credit card balances and 8 percent of auto loans (annualized) transitioned into delinquency. "

Wow, $2.74 trillion in auto and credit card debt combined! Are card collectors just independently wealthy? Every so often the stock market gets frothy and a correction of 10% (or more) happens. Thus far the hobby seems to be immune from such a correction. Don't get caught holding the bag..............

There is definitely a certain amount of wealth required to deal in higher end stuff as many members here do. Spending $10k+ on a piece of cardboard is something only a small fraction of Americans can manage.

I would guess there are many out there who are borrowing to support their activities in the hobby. I recall reading recently that something like 85% of new car and 40% of used car purchases are financed, which is absolutely crazy to me. People just want stuff they can't afford.

[Brian Van Horn]

When I went on Thursday July 25 that was by far the most crowded National I have ever attended.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

There is definitely a certain amount of wealth required to deal in higher end stuff as many members here do. Spending $10k+ on a piece of cardboard is something only a small fraction of Americans can manage.

I would guess there are many out there who are borrowing to support their activities in the hobby. I recall reading recently that something like 85% of new car and 40% of used car purchases are financed, which is absolutely crazy to me. People just want stuff they can't afford.

It's the new American dream!

Living your entire adult life 1 penny away from bankruptcy.

[BioCRN]

I have nothing to back it up except personal observation...nonetheless, the people I see buying cardboard that maybe shouldn't are the pack/box busting types, not the buying-singles type. By a wide margin, those are the guys/gals I see rolling up trying to sell nearly their entire collection at once because "something came up."

That said, and though it's something that's been offered by auction houses for a long time, I'm seeing (and getting in emails) a whole lot more offers to give you money up front if you cosign cards. There's auction houses that didn't used to do this as a means of promotion that are now extremely up front about their ability to do this.

[Jewish-collector]

Originally Posted by Huck

Are card collectors just independently wealthy?

No, most of the regular National card collector attendees budget & take a few thousand dollars for this show. The National changed after COVID. It depends on your perspective if it's better, worse, or the same as pre-COVID Nationals. The crowds are so much bigger than before that it is evident that any of the venues (IX Center, Stephens, etc,...) having the National are now too small.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

I witnessed a VERY healthy hobby when I attended Wed and Thurs. I imagine it was even more nuts on Friday and Saturday. I stayed in downtown CLE and even though I liked being next to a casino for some late night poker action and within walking distance of Progressive field, the 20 minute drive to the IX wasn't fun. I much prefer Chicago location which is walking distance to hotels/restaurants. Would love to see the show expand to twice/year with Chicago being permanent and then going to other cities Dallas/Anaheim/Baltimore/Boston/Seattle etc. for the 2nd yearly location.

Every dealer I talked to said it was the most revenue generating National they've ever had. And just think if they had better WIFI/Cell they could have made even more money as it limited digital payments and comp research.

Overall I think the economy is humming along nicely and the wads of cash trading hands portends a strong hobby for the years to come.

[Rhotchkiss]

I was not at the National, but I do feel the "hobby" is healthy, and I have a theory why:

This is pure conjecture. I have no tangible basis for these statements, but I feel they have truth. Also, I realize I am making massive generalizations here.
Full disclosure, I am a Gen Xer

For Gen X and Older:

Many people/collectors in this group feel financially comfortable. They purchased homes years ago, and they have seen their homes substantially appreciate. To the extent they have mortgages, they have very low interest rates (often sub 3%). Many of these people were taught to invest in stocks, and they did. They not only invested in their personal capacity, but they opened 401ks and IRAs and they maxed out contributions. And they have seen the value of their stock portfolios appreciate substantially. These people are (or are approaching) being empty-nesters. They are done paying tuition and no longer pay for, or merely subsidize, children, rather than fully supporting them. They are making the most money they have ever made in their career, as they are in senior positions and have job tenure, yet they have fewer expenses than they have had in years. They feel financially comfortable, if not wealthy. Regarding cards, they likely have items that have appreciated a ton in their time. This means they not only have additional wealth through cardboard, but they believe in cardboard being a potential source of wealth since they have experienced it first hand.

These people are buying cards and they have money to spend.

For Gen Y and Younger:

These people are a complete 180 from the group above. They rent and do not own homes. They do not contribute to, let alone max out 401Ks, and other retirement accounts. They do not save like their parents. Instead, they spend. This does not mean they don't want to be wealthy, they do. They just don't want to go the slow and steady route us older farts were taught. They know several crypto millionaires. They know "influencers" who are making money off the internet and they view YouTubers as celebrities. To them, the stock market is a casino and meme stocks are solid investments. They are much more accepting of "alternative" investments/careers/lifestyles. They are children of the internet, who want it now and they spend what they have/make now.

These people are buying cards and they spend the money they have.

So, I think the older "collectors" have the means to collect what they love, even if at higher price tags, and to invest in expensive cardboard. The younger "collectors" live in the now, spending what they have, looking for the quick win to roll over and over and over into the "next deal". Both groups, together, are fueling the hobby and keeping it healthy.

Sorry for the long post, most (if not all) of which is likely hogwash.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

I witnessed a VERY healthy hobby when I attended Wed and Thurs. I imagine it was even more nuts on Friday and Saturday. I stayed in downtown CLE and even though I liked being next to a casino for some late night poker action and within walking distance of Progressive field, the 20 minute drive to the IX wasn't fun. I much prefer Chicago location which is walking distance to hotels/restaurants. Would love to see the show expand to twice/year with Chicago being permanent and then going to other cities Dallas/Anaheim/Baltimore/Boston/Seattle etc. for the 2nd yearly location.

Every dealer I talked to said it was the most revenue generating National they've ever had. And just think if they had better WIFI/Cell they could have made even more money as it limited digital payments and comp research.

Overall I think the economy is humming along nicely and the wads of cash trading hands portends a strong hobby for the years to come.

I thought the same thing....the growth since the first post-covid show has been large and steady. I think with the increase in modern cards and 10-25 year olds present...it will only get more crazy. Time to set up two shows a year....summer in CHI and another rotating EQUALLY around the country.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

No, most of the regular National card collector attendees budget & take a few thousand dollars for this show. The National changed after COVID. It depends on your perspective if it's better, worse, or the same as pre-COVID Nationals. The crowds are so much bigger than before that it is evident that any of the venues (IX Center, Stephens, etc,...) having the National are now too small.

I'm guessing a lot of the older guys still collecting at these prices are leveraging from the appreciation in collections accumulated when ordinary folk with ordinary incomes could do that. Nobody loves everything forever, so you sell the things you don't have to have anymore to be able to make a play for things you otherwise wouldn't be able to afford. And, as others have said, there's the "wealth effect" of big appreciations in homes, the market, etc. I have no clue what the younger dudes are up to at these shows, and I wonder how many are actual collectors who love their cards like the older folk, but whatever they're about it's great to see them put some juice into the hobby and some of them will inevitably gravitate to vintage and keep the life going in that, too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

That is my one big takeaway from the 2024 National. Pictures, videos, stories, this National was packed. I can't wait to see what the finally ticket sales are (Rich Klein)? I think this is good for the hobby in general and am excited to see what the rest of 2024 is like.

What is your National takeaway?

Crowded is not necessarily the same thing as lots of card sales. My limited anecdotal evidence is that cards that friends were looking for for me were insanely overpriced.

[ClementeFanOh]

On Thursday, dealers were so busy I had to wait just to get their attention. I saw plenty of sales. This soft resistance from people who didn’t attend is wrong. Hobby looked awfully healthy to me on Thursday. Trent King

[dfletch00]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

On Thursday, dealers were so busy I had to wait just to get their attention. I saw plenty of sales. This soft resistance from people who didn’t attend is wrong. Hobby looked awfully healthy to me on Thursday. Trent King

agreed... was there Wed , Thursday .Friday am .. and that was enough.. huge crowds and lots of kids .. looks pretty healthy to say the least

[hcv123]

I was at booth 1042. Great to meet many Net 54ers! I echo most of the above stated sentiment. By far the busiest national I have been to. I literally didn't have time to eat lunch or use the bathroom Wed-Sat!!! I do this full time and am no stranger to being on my feet at shows for 2-3 day shows - this was a whole other animal - I was physically and mentally exhausted at the end of each day (except Sunday). Had Many people coming over to photograph, video and discuss the holy grail PSA 9 1953 Stahl Meyer Mantle

Agree that in and out, bathroom and food logistics for attendees and wifi service needs some significant improvement. Move in, move out, security and all else was excellent, well coordinated and managed.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Crowded is not necessarily the same thing as lots of card sales. My limited anecdotal evidence is that cards that friends were looking for for me were insanely overpriced.

Peter, in the past, I would agree with you But from what I have seen, guys spent and got pick ups, so maybe they worked deals from the prices? or maybe they just accepted the price.

[Steve_NY]

Another dealer viewpoint -- at booth 800 eight booths in the main entrance.

Second best National of 40!!! Post sales could jump it to number one of 40. I am 100% vintage pre -1975. Business was brisk and I didn't get to eat most days until 2 P.M. or later.

What was hot? Everything vintage -- which sport or non sport? -- just everything!!!

My display was so good that I drew a diagram so I can repeat the set up next year. Every day, hundreds of customers told me I had the best display at the show and spent hours staring at my packs. I displayed raw unopened wax packs from 1933 to 1970 - and I blew many minds with my 1935 National Chicle and every year Goudey packs and my rare Parkhurst and Topps Hockey packs. They didn't sell because they were not graded but I did sell some pack rarities that pushed my sales almost to my best show ever -- and I have done 40 Nationals and literally over 1,000 shows (I even ran over 300 shows).

I suspected that the pre show noise was just that. I really would like to see everyone come to next year's National in Chicago, but I am sure that many Net 54ers will not come and say that the hobby is dead or everything will be too expensive or something similar.

You can't imagine how many Net 54ers came and introduced themselves to me, and often spent money at my booth. Also, many more Canadians came and spent money.

My take on the high prices? Everyone who buys from me wants a discount of 10-20 percent off. I never sell anything at the price I have on the item. If I priced my vintage cards too low, I will still be held to a 10-20 percent further reduction. Yes, most of what I sell (except for my packs) was bought in the 70s and 80s, but replacing that stock is almost impossible. I would prefer to let someone else enjoy my cards but don't want to give it away. Fair is fair. Also I am very happy that everyone did well!! We all deserve it.

Steve

[jimtodd]

The IX center has hosted a ton of events over the years, and the Cleveland local news said this was the most people they had ever seen attend an event there.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Steve_NY

Another dealer viewpoint -- at booth 800 eight booths in the main entrance.

Second best National of 40!!! Post sales could jump it to number one of 40. I am 100% vintage pre -1975. Business was brisk and I didn't get to eat most days until 2 P.M. or later.

What was hot? Everything vintage -- which sport or non sport? -- just everything!!!

My display was so good that I drew a diagram so I can repeat the set up next year. Every day, hundreds of customers told me I had the best display at the show and spent hours staring at my packs. I displayed raw unopened wax packs from 1933 to 1970 - and I blew many minds with my 1935 National Chicle and every year Goudey packs and my rare Parkhurst and Topps Hockey packs. They didn't sell because they were not graded but I did sell some pack rarities that pushed my sales almost to my best show ever -- and I have done 40 Nationals and literally over 1,000 shows (I even ran over 300 shows).

I suspected that the pre show noise was just that. I really would like to see everyone come to next year's National in Chicago, but I am sure that many Net 54ers will not come and say that the hobby is dead or everything will be too expensive or something similar.

You can't imagine how many Net 54ers came and introduced themselves to me, and often spent money at my booth. Also, many more Canadians came and spent money.

My take on the high prices? Everyone who buys from me wants a discount of 10-20 percent off. I never sell anything at the price I have on the item. If I priced my vintage cards too low, I will still be held to a 10-20 percent further reduction. Yes, most of what I sell (except for my packs) was bought in the 70s and 80s, but replacing that stock is almost impossible. I would prefer to let someone else enjoy my cards but don't want to give it away. Fair is fair. Also I am very happy that everyone did well!! We all deserve it.

Steve

I didn't have time to stop and chat but I enjoyed walking by your booth a number of times on my way elsewhere. I was at the other end of the 800 aisle. Your stuff was absolutely mind-blowing

[jchcollins]

This was my first National. Went with my card buddy from N54 (Hi Robert!) and we had a blast. My impressions, in no particular order:

*Crowds both days we were there (Thursday and Friday) were huge as expected, and likely too big on the whole for the realistic capacity size of the venue. Restroom situation was a joke, but also long lines for food and refreshments. It was nice however to have food trucks inside, and though expensive - more food options than just a crappy cheeseburger and soda from the corner stand in one place in the building. Not that that would have been possible anyway given the crowd size. Traffic seemed like a nightmare, but we had flown in and Ubered both days and so it was not a super big deal just getting dropped off even if it took a while. The Uber rates on the whole from our hotel 15 mins away were very reasonable.

*Communication around how to get in, what the deal was with VIP people vs. the peons was shoddy at best. On Thursday, they just opened up the floodgates even before GA time at 10 am. I walked right in, no wristband, nobody scanned my ticket or anything. The next morning, despite getting to the venue about 45 mins earlier - we stood in the wrong line for half an hour, and that day they were requiring everyone to get a wristband, whether or not you intended to leave and come back or not. The lack of organization and communication here for such a large event just struck me as odd. Event staff when asked specifically at least in my experience were either clueless, or close.

*I was super pleased at the large amount of vintage available, and within reason, the prices. Most dealers had no problem negotiating, and in many cases of course due to the selection if you didn’t like the price - you could just move on to the next table and find the same thing. There were of course some fairly overpriced vintage dealers there (i.e. 707 Levi…) and I just kept moving, despite the temptation of their massive inventories.

*Poor inside WiFi and cell reception was an unexpected burden. Really, how many years have they had to know this was a potential problem and fix it? At times could not get online for long enough to look up a comp, and I couldn’t get a PP transaction to go through at all on Friday - and since I had blown my cash of course the previous day, I had to resort to the ATM in the foyer along with a not insignificant fee for using it. Just seems like there should be no excuse for this in 2024. is this just a problem at every expensive trade show? I doubt it.

*Highlights of the trip for me were seeing Memory Lane’s T206 Wagner, the Ruth cap and all the historical stuff at Heritage, meeting finally in-person my childhood supplier Kit Young, and finally chasing down my grail Banks RC, which I got in a perfectly centered PSA 4 from Ash. Not to mention long overdue time well spent with my card buddy Robert.

On the whole the experience met my expectations and I will be back, if not every year. The National for what I do is overkill, and not just a little overkill, but it was also a lot of fun despite the issues. I doubt I will return if it goes back to Cleveland anytime soon, but I hear the logistics - if not the layout itself in Chicago / Rosemont is a lot better.


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