Bob Feller Career

[Tomi]

Was looking at pitching careers on baseball reference and came across his stats. Aside from missing 3 full prime seasons to the war and only pitching 9 games in his 1st year back, the guy was pretty incredible.
Just wondering where you guys place him on your list of all time great pitchers.
Top 5,10,15 etc. Overrated, underrated, right where he belongs. His name rarely comes up with the greats at the top of the list but was a hell of a pitcher in his day. Just blown away with how many complete games he has.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Was looking at pitching careers on baseball reference and came across his stats. Aside from missing 3 full prime seasons to the war and only pitching 9 games in his 1st year back, the guy was pretty incredible.
Just wondering where you guys place him on your list of all time great pitchers.
Top 5,10,15 etc. Overrated, underrated, right where he belongs. His name rarely comes up with the greats at the top of the list but was a hell of a pitcher in his day. Just blown away with how many complete games he has.

I never understood why metrics don't like him. 51st by JAWS? Come on.

[rats60]

I have him 13th.

[cgjackson222]

The heater from Van Meter had some very dominant years, but the 2nd half of his career was not very productive.

I place him around 29, a little behind Nolan Ryan. Both were extreme power pitchers that also walked a lot of batters.

In his prime though, he may be top 10-15.

[Leon]

Every thread needs a card..or blotter..

[Hankphenom]

Who was the best pitcher in the A.L. for the decade of the 1940s, or for the 15 years 1937-52? Answer: Bob Feller. Any pitcher with that kind of dominance on their resume has to be in the truly great category. Fill in Feller's war years with his prime numbers and you've got the proper perspective. Top 10 or 15 all time.

[ClementeFanOh]

270+ career complete games, 3 no hitters, first ballot HOF. I'd call
that outstanding, but just wait- some sophist will insist he is somehow
"overrated". Wait for it... Trent King

[BobC]

Unfortunately, Feller gave up almost four full seasons at the absolute prime of his career to enlist in the Navy and serve as a gun captain aboard the USS Alabama. He was the very first professional athlete, not just a baseball player, to voluntarily enlist in the service after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. He remained in the Navy till after the Japanese unconditionally surrendered on August 14, 1945, and was officially discharged on August 22, 1945. And in typical Feller fashion, just two days later he took the mound for the Indians on August 24 and pitched a complete game, 12 strikeout, 4-2 win over the season's eventual World Series champs, the Tigers.

In 1941, his last full season before he enlisted in the Navy, he led all the majors in wins, games started, innings pitched, strikeouts, walks given, and batters faced. He additionally led just the AL in games pitched in, shutouts, hits given up, and SO per 9 innings. He pitched 28 complete games with an ERA of 3.15 on 343.0 innings pitched, and per Baseball Reference had a WAR of 8.2, which was actually a somewhat down year for him as he had a 9.9 and 9.2 WAR for the previous 1940 and 1939 seasons, respectfully.

Then in his first full season back in 1946, he led all the majors again in wins, games started, innings pitched, strikeouts, walks given, and batters faced, and added also leading the majors in total games pitched in, shutouts, and hits given up. And I can already hear all the trolls and naysayers chomping at the bit to jump on and put him down for giving up all those hits and walks, but that year he did so with an ERA of 2.18. Or are all the sabremetric and statistical nerds going to argue he was the luckiest pitcher alive and must have had one of the greatest and luckiest defenses in baseball behind him, over the entire season? In that first year back, he pitched 36 complete games, out of a total of 42 that he started, 10 of which were shut outs, with 348 strikeouts over 371.1 innings pitched. He literally pitched less than every fourth day for the entire season. And he ended up per Baseball Reference with a 10.0 WAR for that year.

I couldn't find or figure out on Baseball Reference how to get a listing of total WAR for all players by season back then, it kept wanting to give me listings for just offensive or position player WAR. So over on FanGraph I found some total WAR listings for all MLB players which showed that Bob Feller ranked #1 in WAR for all of baseball in 1939 and 1940, was #6 in 1941, and then came back to rank #2 in WAR for 1946, second only to Ted Williams. And don't forget, Feller has three no-hitters, including the only Opening Day no-hitter in MLB history back in 1940, the same year he also won the AL's Pitching Triple Crown.

Now, go back and fill in the four seasons that Feller lost due to WW II, based on how he was doing before he left and after he came back, and then tell everyone where he should rank. Oh, and maybe keep in mind that Feller actually didn't have to go into the service and was eligible for a deferment due to his father's health. Stats and metrics are okay, but there is so much they can't/don't take into account. Feller was probably top 2-3 in his era. I don't see the waste of time in arguing who is this or that over all time because of the differences in the game, context, rules, equipment, and everything else. And then top it off with all the statistics-centric people that view the modern game and players as being so much better than everyone before them.

[Tomi]

Originally Posted by BobC

Unfortunately, Feller gave up almost four full seasons at the absolute prime of his career to enlist in the Navy and serve as a gun captain aboard the USS Alabama. He was the very first professional athlete, not just a baseball player, to voluntarily enlist in the service after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. He remained in the Navy till after the Japanese unconditionally surrendered on August 14, 1945, and was officially discharged on August 22, 1945. And in typical Feller fashion, just two days later he took the mound for the Indians on August 24 and pitched a complete game, 12 strikeout, 4-2 win over the season's eventual World Series champs, the Tigers.

In 1941, his last full season before he enlisted in the Navy, he led all the majors in wins, games started, innings pitched, strikeouts, walks given, and batters faced. He additionally led just the AL in games pitched in, shutouts, hits given up, and SO per 9 innings. He pitched 28 complete games with an ERA of 3.15 on 343.0 innings pitched, and per Baseball Reference had a WAR of 8.2, which was actually a somewhat down year for him as he had a 9.9 and 9.2 WAR for the previous 1940 and 1939 seasons, respectfully.

Then in his first full season back in 1946, he led all the majors again in wins, games started, innings pitched, strikeouts, walks given, and batters faced, and added also leading the majors in total games pitched in, shutouts, and hits given up. And I can already hear all the trolls and naysayers chomping at the bit to jump on and put him down for giving up all those hits and walks, but that year he did so with an ERA of 2.18. Or are all the sabremetric and statistical nerds going to argue he was the luckiest pitcher alive and must have had one of the greatest and luckiest defenses in baseball behind him, over the entire season? In that first year back, he pitched 36 complete games, out of a total of 42 that he started, 10 of which were shut outs, with 348 strikeouts over 371.1 innings pitched. He literally pitched less than every fourth day for the entire season. And he ended up per Baseball Reference with a 10.0 WAR for that year.

I couldn't find or figure out on Baseball Reference how to get a listing of total WAR for all players by season back then, it kept wanting to give me listings for just offensive or position player WAR. So over on FanGraph I found some total WAR listings for all MLB players which showed that Bob Feller ranked #1 in WAR for all of baseball in 1939 and 1940, was #6 in 1941, and then came back to rank #2 in WAR for 1946, second only to Ted Williams. And don't forget, Feller has three no-hitters, including the only Opening Day no-hitter in MLB history back in 1940, the same year he also won the AL's Pitching Triple Crown.

Now, go back and fill in the four seasons that Feller lost due to WW II, based on how he was doing before he left and after he came back, and then tell everyone where he should rank. Oh, and maybe keep in mind that Feller actually didn't have to go into the service and was eligible for a deferment due to his father's health. Stats and metrics are okay, but there is so much they can't/don't take into account. Feller was probably top 2-3 in his era. I don't see the waste of time in arguing who is this or that over all time because of the differences in the game, context, rules, equipment, and everything else. And then top it off with all the statistics-centric people that view the modern game and players as being so much better than everyone before them.

Well said. I guess he will be another "what could have been" player due to missing time even though he had a great career anyway. It's just sad pitchers back in the day who were elite were pitching a lot of innings but today's pitchers are being babied by the analytics managers and are even being pulled from games that are no hitters with only 80 or so pitches thrown.

[jethrod3]

Feller's case always gets me thinking about Ted Williams. Both lost prime years due to the war. How much higher in the key rankings would they have climbed if they hadn't lost those years to serving the greater good? Williams was probably my favorite player that I never actually saw play in live games at a stadium and on TV. Feller may be one of my two favorite pitchers that I never saw play in live games at a stadium or on TV. Feller may have produced numbers putting him squarely in the top 10 all time. I believe Williams may have firmly established himself as the best hitter of all time. Ahh, what might have been!

As for some folks being jaded by Feller being ubiquitious in the hobby, that's hard to fathom. Much of the money he raised by signing autographs helped support his 2-room museum in Van Meter (which was fantastic by the way) and which helped draw people to the city and supported a few people. When I purchased my autographed material the items were extremely reasonably priced. I don't care about scarcity of the autographs. I just want them at a cost that won't break my bank. And Feller's autograph was the autograph of a superstar HOFer that I wanted and still cherish, even though I know if won't help fund my retirement!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jethrod3

As for some folks being jaded by Feller being ubiquitious in the hobby, that's hard to fathom. Much of the money he raised by signing autographs helped support his 2-room museum in Van Meter (which was fantastic by the way) and which helped draw people to the city and supported a few people. When I purchased my autographed material the items were extremely reasonably priced. I don't care about scarcity of the autographs. I just want them at a cost that won't break my bank. And Feller's autograph was the autograph of a superstar HOFer that I wanted and still cherish, even though I know if won't help fund my retirement!

I agree. I think it's awesome that Feller signed everything a fan put in front of him for like 70 years. I don't get why this would be considered a bad thing.

[jethrod3]

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree. I think it's awesome that Feller signed everything a fan put in front of him for like 70 years. I don't get why this would be considered a bad thing.

I know, right? And I suspect that from the point of view of a collector, it wouldn't be. I feel bad that they were unable to keep his museum open. I visited it twice. Both times I went, I was visiting Des Moines and it was just a short drive from there. And both times, they had pieces on loan from Feller's personal collection or others, including the bat Babe Ruth used to lean on in his final appearance at Yankee Stadium. The breadth of autographed material there when I visited was phenomenal, and extremely reasonable priced, and I was able to purchase some autographed HOF cards and a couple of signed HOF busts for the few bucks I had brought with me in my wallet. I was glad that some of the money was going to support his museum. This was probably 15-16 years ago. Unfortunately I never got to meet him and get an autograph in person. As someone else noted above, he was a great ambassador for the game.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jethrod3

Feller's case always gets me thinking about Ted Williams. Both lost prime years due to the war. How much higher in the key rankings would they have climbed if they hadn't lost those years to serving the greater good? Williams was probably my favorite player that I never actually saw play in live games at a stadium and on TV. Feller may be one of my two favorite pitchers that I never saw play in live games at a stadium or on TV. Feller may have produced numbers putting him squarely in the top 10 all time. I believe Williams may have firmly established himself as the best hitter of all time. Ahh, what might have been!

As for some folks being jaded by Feller being ubiquitious in the hobby, that's hard to fathom. Much of the money he raised by signing autographs helped support his 2-room museum in Van Meter (which was fantastic by the way) and which helped draw people to the city and supported a few people. When I purchased my autographed material the items were extremely reasonably priced. I don't care about scarcity of the autographs. I just want them at a cost that won't break my bank. And Feller's autograph was the autograph of a superstar HOFer that I wanted and still cherish, even though I know if won't help fund my retirement!

That museum was very nice and had a lot of really cool stuff in it. We stopped there on the way back from a Alice Cooper concert in Des Moines not long before it closed.

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree. I think it's awesome that Feller signed everything a fan put in front of him for like 70 years. I don't get why this would be considered a bad thing.

Ever try to find a old ball to get autographed that didn't already have a Bob Feller auto on it?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jethrod3

Feller's case always gets me thinking about Ted Williams. Both lost prime years due to the war. How much higher in the key rankings would they have climbed if they hadn't lost those years to serving the greater good? Williams was probably my favorite player that I never actually saw play in live games at a stadium and on TV. Feller may be one of my two favorite pitchers that I never saw play in live games at a stadium or on TV. Feller may have produced numbers putting him squarely in the top 10 all time. I believe Williams may have firmly established himself as the best hitter of all time. Ahh, what might have been!

As for some folks being jaded by Feller being ubiquitious in the hobby, that's hard to fathom. Much of the money he raised by signing autographs helped support his 2-room museum in Van Meter (which was fantastic by the way) and which helped draw people to the city and supported a few people. When I purchased my autographed material the items were extremely reasonably priced. I don't care about scarcity of the autographs. I just want them at a cost that won't break my bank. And Feller's autograph was the autograph of a superstar HOFer that I wanted and still cherish, even though I know if won't help fund my retirement!

You can add Warren Spahn to that list with Feller and Williams as well. Spahn had just come onto the Braves team in 1942, and pitched in only four games before going off to the war. He didn't pitch again till he came back in 1946. But what Spahn and Williams did was play long enough to both reach superstar plateaus for their positions. Spahn had over 300 wins and Williams over 500 home runs. Meanwhile, Feller missed both the 300 wins and 3,000 strikeouts milestones for pitchers, both of which he would have probably easily reached had he not served during the war. And that's why I said in an earlier thread he probably got hurt the most of any ballplayer because of the time missed in the war.

What's interesting for Spahn is that had he not missed almost four seasons to WWII, he would easily have reached 400 wins, and probably had over 3,000 strikeouts as well.

And for Williams it is even possibly more insane. Unlike Feller and Spahn, Williams played the entire 1942 season, and only missed 3 seasons to WWII, not the almost 4 seasons that Feller and Spahn lost. However, what a lot of people forget, or never knew to begin with, was that Williams went back into the service during the Korean War. He only played in 6 games in the beginning of the 1952 season before heading off to the Korean War, and came back in late 1953 to play in 37 games to finish out that season. So, Williams basically lost almost 5 years fighting in wars. Had he not gone off to fight, he most likely would have gone from #7 to #1 on the all-time career offensive WAR list, surpassing both Ruth and Cobb, easily top 3,000 career hits and actually go towards 4,000, likely take the all-time MLB walks record from Barry Bonds, easily top 600 home runs and probably close in on 700, likely take the all-time RBI crown from Aaron, and the all-time runs scored record from Henderson, while probably keeping his all-time OBP record. And lord knows what all other records could have become his, or if he could have had a 3rd batting triple crown (or even more), or possibly even another .400 average season.

Lot of what ifs for these guys who went off to war.

[ClementeFanOh]

I'll also point out these factoids:

1) Feller was 266-162 in wins over his career, 104 over .500. By
comparison, Tom Seaver was at 106 (and some of you love to gush
over Seaver).

2) Although Feller would have topped 300 wins for a career with war years
converted into baseball years, his 266 was still outstanding.

3) No less an authority than Ted Williams himself, called Feller the best
pitcher he ever faced. Since Williams was an actual warrior instead of a
keyboard one, I think I'll trust his evaluation.

4) No-hitters most certainly are a fine metric for determining a pitcher's
quality, when placed in context- which I (and others) have done. Feller
threw his 3(!) over an 11 year time span, which of course is a much
longer time than many pitchers are able to sustain in the first place.

Short version is any team would gladly have taken Feller in their rotation-
any team. That's a great pitcher (and no, I'm not a Cleveland fan or a
Feller collector). Trent King

[rats60]

Originally Posted by BobC

You can add Warren Spahn to that list with Feller and Williams as well.Spahn had just come onto the Braves team in 1942, and pitched in only four games before going off to the war. He didn't pitch again till he came back in 1946. But what Spahn and Williams did was play long enough to both reach superstar plateaus for their positions. Spahn had over 300 wins and Williams over 500 home runs. Meanwhile, Feller missed both the 300 wins and 3,000 strikeouts milestones for pitchers, both of which he would have probably easily reached had he not served during the war. And that's why I said in an earlier thread he probably got hurt the most of any ballplayer because of the time missed in the war.

What's interesting for Spahn is that had he not missed almost four seasons to WWII, he would easily have reached 400 wins, and probably had over 3,000 strikeouts as well.

And for Williams it is even possibly more insane. Unlike Feller and Spahn, Williams played the entire 1942 season, and only missed 3 seasons to WWII, not the almost 4 seasons that Feller and Spahn lost. However, what a lot of people forget, or never knew to begin with, was that Williams went back into the service during the Korean War. He only played in 6 games in the beginning of the 1952 season before heading off to the Korean War, and came back in late 1953 to play in 37 games to finish out that season. So, Williams basically lost almost 5 years fighting in wars. Had he not gone off to fight, he most likely would have gone from #7 to #1 on the all-time career offensive WAR list, surpassing both Ruth and Cobb, easily top 3,000 career hits and actually go towards 4,000, likely take the all-time MLB walks record from Barry Bonds, easily top 600 home runs and probably close in on 700, likely take the all-time RBI crown from Aaron, and the all-time runs scored record from Henderson, while probably keeping his all-time OBP record. And lord knows what all other records could have become his, or if he could have had a 3rd batting triple crown (or even more), or possibly even another .400 average season.

Lot of what ifs for these guys who went off to war.

The bolded is not true. Spahn pitched 4 games in the majors in 1942 at age 21 and was sent back to the minors. Spahn won zero games and had 5.74 ERA in the majors. At the A level, he pitched 33 games going 17-12 with a 1.96 ERA. Spahn went to the military the next year.

Spahn has said the best thing for his major league career was serving in the military. It gave him a chance to mature and he was better equipped to pitch in the majors when he returned at age 25. Ted Williams won the triple crown in 1942 after hitting .406 in 1941. Feller finished 3rd in MVP voting behind DiMaggio and Williams in 1941 before enlisting. Williams and Feller lost prime years to WWII service. Spahn did not. It is only speculation how much Spahn would have even pitched in the majors in 1943-1945 given his 1942 performance.

[jingram058]

Signed MCI Ambassadors of Baseball card, USS Independence CV-62, 1993 I believe. Johnny Vander Meer also, post card size photo.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by rats60

The bolded is not true. Spahn pitched 4 games in the majors in 1942 at age 21 and was sent back to the minors. Spahn won zero games and had 5.74 ERA in the majors. At the A level, he pitched 33 games going 17-12 with a 1.96 ERA. Spahn went to the military the next year.

Spahn has said the best thing for his major league career was serving in the military. It gave him a chance to mature and he was better equipped to pitch in the majors when he returned at age 25. Ted Williams won the triple crown in 1942 after hitting .406 in 1941. Feller finished 3rd in MVP voting behind DiMaggio and Williams in 1941 before enlisting. Williams and Feller lost prime years to WWII service. Spahn did not. It is only speculation how much Spahn would have even pitched in the majors in 1943-1945 given his 1942 performance.

Rats, thank you, I stand somewhat corrected. I forgot about the stint back to the minors. And I had heard somewhere about Spahn crediting his military service for helping his career as well. But something tells me that because of the type of person he was, and with the talent and ability he had, he would have gotten it figured out long before he turned 25 and been a star pitcher for a few more years in his career had he not lost the years he did. And with 363 career wins and 2,583 career strike outs otherwise, he didn't need 3 or 4 superstar level seasons to reach those 400 win, 3,000 strikeout plateaus.

And that partially missed fourth season I incorrectly attributed to his being in the service, you can probably still count that as he shouldn't have missed it because it is a known fact that in '42 Spahn got into it with then Braves manager Casey Stengel who had ordered him to intentionally throw at a batter, Pee Wee Reese, and in an exhibition game no less. And as I mentioned, being the kind of person he was, Spahn refused to intentionally throw at a batter, especially in an exhibition game, and for that Stengel sent him back to the minors. I believe Stengel was even quoted as admitting at one time much later on that that was the worst managing mistake that he ever made. So the correct statement should be Spahn missed three full seasons to WWII, and much of a fourth to Casey Stengel.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

You can add Warren Spahn to that list with Feller and Williams as well. Spahn had just come onto the Braves team in 1942, and pitched in only four games before going off to the war. He didn't pitch again till he came back in 1946. But what Spahn and Williams did was play long enough to both reach superstar plateaus for their positions. Spahn had over 300 wins and Williams over 500 home runs. Meanwhile, Feller missed both the 300 wins and 3,000 strikeouts milestones for pitchers, both of which he would have probably easily reached had he not served during the war. And that's why I said in an earlier thread he probably got hurt the most of any ballplayer because of the time missed in the war.

What's interesting for Spahn is that had he not missed almost four seasons to WWII, he would easily have reached 400 wins, and probably had over 3,000 strikeouts as well.

And for Williams it is even possibly more insane. Unlike Feller and Spahn, Williams played the entire 1942 season, and only missed 3 seasons to WWII, not the almost 4 seasons that Feller and Spahn lost. However, what a lot of people forget, or never knew to begin with, was that Williams went back into the service during the Korean War. He only played in 6 games in the beginning of the 1952 season before heading off to the Korean War, and came back in late 1953 to play in 37 games to finish out that season. So, Williams basically lost almost 5 years fighting in wars. Had he not gone off to fight, he most likely would have gone from #7 to #1 on the all-time career offensive WAR list, surpassing both Ruth and Cobb, easily top 3,000 career hits and actually go towards 4,000, likely take the all-time MLB walks record from Barry Bonds, easily top 600 home runs and probably close in on 700, likely take the all-time RBI crown from Aaron, and the all-time runs scored record from Henderson, while probably keeping his all-time OBP record. And lord knows what all other records could have become his, or if he could have had a 3rd batting triple crown (or even more), or possibly even another .400 average season.

Lot of what ifs for these guys who went off to war.

Not that DiMaggio would have threatened any milestones, but he missed three prime years.

[jingram058]

DiMaggio will be remembered for hitting consecutively in 56 games, as well he should be, even by this generation. 1941 is looked on by historians for two almost incomprehensible milestones...those 56 consecutive games, and IMO more importantly, Ted Williams' .406 batting average. DiMaggio flirted with .400 in 1939, winding up at .381. Several others have flirted with it since, only to falter in the end, showing just how hard it is to do. I do not see it happening even more so today because of specialized pitching being what it is; starting, middle, late and closing. If DiMaggio had those 3 years, who knows, but I doubt it.

[Tomi]

Very impressive that Dimaggio had 8 more lifetime strikeouts than homeruns. Sad that players today will strikeouts more in 2 seasons than Dimaggio in his career.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not that DiMaggio would have threatened any milestones, but he missed three prime years.

Very true, and not to take away anything from DiMaggio at all, but he played a much shorter overall career than Feller, Spahn, and Williams. The closest was Feller, who played 18 seasons to DiMaggio's 13 season career, and that's counting the very partial 1945 season for Feller as one of those 18.

And even if you add in the average of three years worth of hits and home runs from his best and most productive seasons, it looks like DiMaggio's still going to come up short in the 3,000 hit - 500 home run categories. And nothing else in his stats jumps out to me as being milestone reaching or all-time record worthy by simply adding three more years worth of numbers. He doesn't/didn't need anything else though, he already had the hitting streak AND he played for the Yankees. DiMaggio had all the publicity and hype he could ever need and/or want. And yet, he still went beyond all that with the icing on his cake................he was married to Marilyn Monroe!

I put that on somewhat of a par with Verlander. You guys had your other thread talking about how dismal Verlander's World Series record is, and with that opening game loss to Philly the other night he's now sporting an 0-6 WS pitching record, with the highest WS starting pitcher ERA of all time, right? Well, if I was Verlander, I probably couldn't care less, and upon hearing/reading all the negativity directed at me I'd likely just respond "Screw you!", because at the end of the day I get to go home to my wife, Kate Upton, and............................................... ............

I'll leave it to you all to finish that last sentence however you like.

[Peter_Spaeth]

He didn't get the loss though. But he definitely was not in good form. It's weird because his career playoff record overall isn't that bad, just the WS.

Wherever he ends up in wins, given trends no pitcher may ever get more, at least until the game reverts back to how it was.

[jethrod3]

Originally Posted by BobC

And for Williams it is even possibly more insane. Unlike Feller and Spahn, Williams played the entire 1942 season, and only missed 3 seasons to WWII, not the almost 4 seasons that Feller and Spahn lost. However, what a lot of people forget, or never knew to begin with, was that Williams went back into the service during the Korean War. He only played in 6 games in the beginning of the 1952 season before heading off to the Korean War, and came back in late 1953 to play in 37 games to finish out that season. So, Williams basically lost almost 5 years fighting in wars.

I agree. He left the game certainly with his name in the argument for greatest hitter ever, and had he played during those missed years and stayed healthy, it's likely that he would have been at the top or very near the top of ALL of the categories you mentioned. I've read a couple of Williams biographies. He was not a perfect man, but major props to him for re-enlisting. That was a sacrifice that was above and beyond the call of duty for all but a few players of their day.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I've seen this estimate.

The statisticians tell us that Williams, who was obsessed with personal achievements, would have compiled a .342 career average, 3,452 hits, 2,380 RBI and 663 home runs had he played without war-time interruption.

I think that's still second to Ruth -- God would have finished second to Ruth -- but obviously remarkable.

[bbcard1]

Gotta share my Feller story...in the late 1970s...I'd guess 1978...he came to Watt Powell Park in Charleston WV. For the sum of $2 you could take a cut off Rapid Robert...remember he had to be in his 60s then. All proceeds benefitted the American Cancer Society. It was the pregame to a minor league baseball game. I blooped a single over second finishing 1-1 against hall of famers. After he took a shower and signed autographs for anyone who wanted.

Late in his life he was one of the first victims of cancel culture that I recall. He said something that was probably slightly behind the time and some POS announcer accused him of being a racist. I don't think any serious study of Feller's life would support that.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I've seen this estimate.

The statisticians tell us that Williams, who was obsessed with personal achievements, would have compiled a .342 career average, 3,452 hits, 2,380 RBI and 663 home runs had he played without war-time interruption.

I think that's still second to Ruth -- God would have finished second to Ruth -- but obviously remarkable.

Ruth's numbers will forever wow me, and what's even more absurd is that we were arguably robbed of an even better career if he started out playing a position instead of pitching.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I've seen this estimate.

The statisticians tell us that Williams, who was obsessed with personal achievements, would have compiled a .342 career average, 3,452 hits, 2,380 RBI and 663 home runs had he played without war-time interruption.

I think that's still second to Ruth -- God would have finished second to Ruth -- but obviously remarkable.

Don't disagree, but then go look at their career WAR. Different sites seem to always have slightly different figures and exact ways they're calculating it, but if you look at them just for offensive WAR, Williams would likely just have topped Ruth if he hadn't missed those five years. But then add on Ruth's pitching WAR also and now he's back on top for total WAR over even Williams then. And even if looking just at offensive WAR, it would have taken Willams several more seasons than Ruth to just catch and equal him, still leaving Ruth in the top spot IMO, just Williams looking a lot closer maybe.

Replace Ruth's first 4-5 years as primarily a pitcher for the Red Sox, and back out the approximately 20.0 pitching WAR he generated during that time, and instead replace it with 4-5 years worth of his average offensive WAR, and you're likely looking at a career WAR for Ruth of 200.0 or better, even farther beyond what anyone else ever put up.

My one earlier comment about Williams possibly catching and besting Ruth is still true in regard to just offensive WAR, but that would primarily be due to Williams having played longer, not necessarily better, than Ruth.

And I still hate and don't fully understand a lot of these modern metrics and statistics, but because so many worship and quote them like they're gospel, one is forced to use or repeat them in conversations like this occasionally.