Tinker Evers Chance photo

[Shankweather]

Are there any Cubs or city of Chicago historians that can tell me about this photo? Where it was taken, approximately when, and possibly who the people in the photos on the wall are? Clearly the main subjects are Johnny Evers, Joe Tinker, and Frank Chance, but I'd like to find out as much as I can about it. The LotG auction didn't provide many details.

https://bid.loveofthegameauctions.co...e?itemid=26868

[Shoeless Moe]

Can't help with the photo, but you might find this interesting to learn more about the Trio:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOTVOOuW7Bo


Maybe try to contact him since he wrote a book on them.

[Casey2296]

That looks like it could be a microphone stand off Chances left shoulder in the background, and the photos on the wall look like signed photos of performers? So maybe the photo was taken in a nightclub or lounge. Just a guess though.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

That looks like it could be a microphone stand off Chances left shoulder in the background, and the photos on the wall look like signed photos of performers? So maybe the photo was taken in a nightclub or lounge. Just a guess though.

To piggy-back on Phil's comment, I remember that Tinker had a vaudeville act for several years during the off-season. He appears to be the one feted here. Also, the photo immediately over Evers' head looks a little like a younger Tinker, --maybe he once performed at this locale. Also and as noted, the wall photos appear to have been autographed and personalized, again pointing toward a dinner or night club that had hosted these acts.

[Tony Gordon]

Quite possibly the Pump Room or Coq d'Or.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Tony Gordon

Quite possibly the Pump Room or Coq d'Or.

Tony,

Funny you mentioned the Pump Room as that thought jumped into my head when I first saw the picture also. No chance though. The Pump Room, in the old Ambassador East hotel, didn't open till 1938. Frank Chance passed in 1924.

For those unaware, the Ambassador East was one of those grand old downtown city hotels you'd often see in old movies and shows. In fact, the Ambassador East was featured in Hitchcock's classic, "North by Northwest", which starred Cary Grant. The Pump Room entrance was through the hotel lobby, and the walls of the place were covered with photos of all the celebrities, politicians, and other notable people that supposedly had been to the restaurant/club. The pictures on the wall of the OP's photo look very similar to how the Pump Room looked.

Not really familiar with Coq d'Or, but assume that was a similar type of club/restaurant inside a major hotel. In this case it was Chicago's Drake Hotel. But again, no chance it was the site of the OP's picture as Coq d'Or didn't open till 1933.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Can't help with the photo, but you might find this interesting to learn more about the Trio:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOTVOOuW7Bo


Maybe try to contact him since he wrote a book on them.

It is a good story about the three. However, the author/presenter is not very polished and takes away from it. Need a better present or/narrator

[Shankweather]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Can't help with the photo, but you might find this interesting to learn more about the Trio:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOTVOOuW7Bo


Maybe try to contact him since he wrote a book on them.

I read that book! I never thought about asking the author. Looks like he's on Twitter, I'll give it a shot.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Shankweather

Are there any Cubs or city of Chicago historians that can tell me about this photo? Where it was taken, approximately when, and possibly who the people in the photos on the wall are? Clearly the main subjects are Johnny Evers, Joe Tinker, and Frank Chance, but I'd like to find out as much as I can about it. The LotG auction didn't provide many details.

https://bid.loveofthegameauctions.co...e?itemid=26868

As mentioned in my earlier post, Frank Chance passed away in 1924, September 15 to be exact, so we know the photo was certainly no later than that. Evers had been coaching for the Chicago White Sox in 1922 and 1923, and was set to reunite with Frank Chance who was hired to come in and manage the White Sox in 1924. Except, Chance came down with a severe case of influenza, from which he also developed asthma and other health issues, which led to him returning to his the West coast home in LA and emergency surgery for his condition in April, 1924. There may have been a small window of time where Evers and Chance were together in Chicago for such a picture, after he got hired as the new Chicago manager, and before he got too ill to continue on and moved back to LA before his surgery and subsequent passing. But it doesn't help explain Tinker's presence in the photo at this time as he had moved to Florida in 1920 as the owner/manager of the Orlando Tigers of the Florida League, and also became involved in real estate down there in the early 1920's. This late 1923/early 1924 timing also doesn't make sense in that Tinker's first wife, who had a long history of poor health, ended up committing suicide on Christmas Day of 1923, supposedly as a result of a nervous breakdown. Further clouding the sense of Evers and Tinker being together in such a picture is the fact the two of them had gotten into an on-field physical fight during a game back on September 14, 1905, and as a result, the two supposedly did not talk and had nothing to do with each other off the field for the next 33 years, until they were both asked (apparently without each other's knowledge) to participate in the radio broadcast the 1938 World Series. It is also a main reason Tinker later asked to be traded to the Reds in 1913, after Evers was appointed the Cubs manager for that 1913 season, and Tinker not wanting to play for him. It obviously is not entirely true though as in 1929, Tinker signed a 10 week contract to perform in a theatrical baseball skit along with Evers, presented in various cities across the country.

The LOTG description mentions the picture had markings on the back of it indicating it was issued by International Film Service (IFS). IFS was owned by William Randolph Hearst and formed back in 1915, and was created to translate top comic strip properties Hearst owned into "living comic strips" to be added to the tail end of newsreels then being produced by another Hearst owned/formed entity, International Picture Service. Because of Hearst's pro-German leanings, his business suffered during WW1, and he formally shut down and laid of everyone at IFS on July 6, 1918. Hearst apparently licensed the animation work to John C. Terry and his studio, but they shut down about a year later as well. So Hearst this time licensed the IFS animation work to a competing studio, Bray Productions, under a two year contract from 1919 to 1921 to produce IFS cartoons. At the end of the contract the licensing deal broke off, and the final few IFS cartoons were released in early 1921. How a picture of Tinker, Evers, and Chance fits in with a company producing comic trailers for newsreels is beyond me. But at least it appears to set the spectrum for when this photo was taken/issued as no earlier than 1915, and probably no later than early 1921.

Sorry, not much more help beyond that it was likely taken sometime between 1915 through early 1921, and not necessarily at a Chicago location. After they started leaving the Cubs in 1913, these three were in different cities and parts of the country during the time this photo was taken. It is possible this was from a random, chance meeting of the three old teammates. And given that I believe International Film Service was based out of New York city, I could see the picture happening in some New York restaurant/club where they happened to be together again for some chance or obscure reason or cirumstance. Best I can do, sorry.

[Jobu]

What if the photo shows Evers, Chance, and someone who looks like but is not Tinker? Below is the famous Paul Thompson Tinker photo, the fella in question, and on the right an older Tinker from a photo in the HOF's collection:

Tinker comp sm.jpg

I don't think that is Tinker - lots of the facial features look different to me and they don't appear to have the same teeth.

If true, this removes all of the Tinker questions from the equation. And it seems possible that there is some symbolism going on in the photo - if Chance is handing the ball to Evers, this could well be when managerial duties were passed between the two, which would then place this most likely in a Chicago nightclub with the guy in the middle perhaps being the club owner or working for the team.

What this does not resolve is the dating of the stamp proposed by Bob. I can add to that some nice work by Jim Chapman who has a NY stamp study:

https://chapmandeadballcollection.co...tamp-primer-2/

I checked the 1924 San Francisco phonebook - there is no listing for International News Service but there is one for the International News Service, which was at 632 Mission St. - not too far away from the Call Building.

Looking around for information on the New Call Building, I found this:

https://sfpl.org/locations/main-libr...isco-news-call

Specifically, "The combined gift of the morgues from the San Francisco News and Hearst’s San Francisco Call-Bulletin was an estimated 2 million photographs. The San Francisco News-Call Bulletin Photo Morgue represents the working files created and used by the newspapers’ staff between the 1920s and September 1965."

This doesn't clear up why International Film Service would've been typed onto the back of this photo in 1924 - but a typing error is possible, something less likely had this been a stamp - but it does show a Hearst photo archive working out of the building typed on the back of the photo in the 1920s and beyond, so maybe we can't rule out 1924.

Lots of guesses, that's for sure.

Originally Posted by BobC

As mentioned in my earlier post, Frank Chance passed away in 1924, September 15 to be exact, so we know the photo was certainly no later than that. Evers had been coaching for the Chicago White Sox in 1922 and 1923, and was set to reunite with Frank Chance who was hired to come in and manage the White Sox in 1924. Except, Chance came down with a severe case of influenza, from which he also developed asthma and other health issues, which led to him returning to his the West coast home in LA and emergency surgery for his condition in April, 1924. There may have been a small window of time where Evers and Chance were together in Chicago for such a picture, after he got hired as the new Chicago manager, and before he got too ill to continue on and moved back to LA before his surgery and subsequent passing. But it doesn't help explain Tinker's presence in the photo at this time as he had moved to Florida in 1920 as the owner/manager of the Orlando Tigers of the Florida League, and also became involved in real estate down there in the early 1920's. This late 1923/early 1924 timing also doesn't make sense in that Tinker's first wife, who had a long history of poor health, ended up committing suicide on Christmas Day of 1923, supposedly as a result of a nervous breakdown. Further clouding the sense of Evers and Tinker being together in such a picture is the fact the two of them had gotten into an on-field physical fight during a game back on September 14, 1905, and as a result, the two supposedly did not talk and had nothing to do with each other off the field for the next 33 years, until they were both asked (apparently without each other's knowledge) to participate in the radio broadcast the 1938 World Series. It is also a main reason Tinker later asked to be traded to the Reds in 1913, after Evers was appointed the Cubs manager for that 1913 season, and Tinker not wanting to play for him. It obviously is not entirely true though as in 1929, Tinker signed a 10 week contract to perform in a theatrical baseball skit along with Evers, presented in various cities across the country.

The LOTG description mentions the picture had markings on the back of it indicating it was issued by International Film Service (IFS). IFS was owned by William Randolph Hearst and formed back in 1915, and was created to translate top comic strip properties Hearst owned into "living comic strips" to be added to the tail end of newsreels then being produced by another Hearst owned/formed entity, International Picture Service. Because of Hearst's pro-German leanings, his business suffered during WW1, and he formally shut down and laid of everyone at IFS on July 6, 1918. Hearst apparently licensed the animation work to John C. Terry and his studio, but they shut down about a year later as well. So Hearst this time licensed the IFS animation work to a competing studio, Bray Productions, under a two year contract from 1919 to 1921 to produce IFS cartoons. At the end of the contract the licensing deal broke off, and the final few IFS cartoons were released in early 1921. How a picture of Tinker, Evers, and Chance fits in with a company producing comic trailers for newsreels is beyond me. But at least it appears to set the spectrum for when this photo was taken/issued as no earlier than 1915, and probably no later than early 1921.

Sorry, not much more help beyond that it was likely taken sometime between 1915 through early 1921, and not necessarily at a Chicago location. After they started leaving the Cubs in 1913, these three were in different cities and parts of the country during the time this photo was taken. It is possible this was from a random, chance meeting of the three old teammates. And given that I believe International Film Service was based out of New York city, I could see the picture happening in some New York restaurant/club where they happened to be together again for some chance or obscure reason or cirumstance. Best I can do, sorry.

[HercDriver]

Funny…as I was reading this thread after a long day of working, I kept thinking that wasn’t Tinker to begin with. Glad somebody agrees…

Cheers,
Geno

[RCMcKenzie]

My .02. What do they call it? Occam's razor? If Mark the SABR photo expert still reads the board, I hope he chimes in. I think Tinker's ear in this photo looks like his ear in his T205 card. His teeth are worse in this photo, but look the same to me. I'm wrong on these photo id's all the time. The photo only makes sense as "Tinker, Evers, and Chance" or some sort of look-alike inside joke photo of them. My first thought was that doesn't look like Frank Chance.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

My .02. What do they call it? Occam's razor? If Mark the SABR photo expert still reads the board, I hope he chimes in. I think Tinker's ear in this photo looks like his ear in his T205 card. His teeth are worse in this photo, but look the same to me. I'm wrong on these photo id's all the time. The photo only makes sense as "Tinker, Evers, and Chance" or some sort of look-alike inside joke photo of them. My first thought was that doesn't look like Frank Chance.

Chance was the oldest of the trio, and looks to have suffered the most hair loss as well. Also, if this does turn out to be an early 1924 photo, don' forget Chance was likely sick. Couple that his aging and I can understand how Chance could possibly look a little more different when compared to earlier photos of himself than his cohorts.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Jobu

What if the photo shows Evers, Chance, and someone who looks like but is not Tinker? Below is the famous Paul Thompson Tinker photo, the fella in question, and on the right an older Tinker from a photo in the HOF's collection:

Attachment 523508

I don't think that is Tinker - lots of the facial features look different to me and they don't appear to have the same teeth.

If true, this removes all of the Tinker questions from the equation. And it seems possible that there is some symbolism going on in the photo - if Chance is handing the ball to Evers, this could well be when managerial duties were passed between the two, which would then place this most likely in a Chicago nightclub with the guy in the middle perhaps being the club owner or working for the team.

What this does not resolve is the dating of the stamp proposed by Bob. I can add to that some nice work by Jim Chapman who has a NY stamp study:

https://chapmandeadballcollection.co...tamp-primer-2/

I checked the 1924 San Francisco phonebook - there is no listing for International News Service but there is one for the International News Service, which was at 632 Mission St. - not too far away from the Call Building.

Looking around for information on the New Call Building, I found this:

https://sfpl.org/locations/main-libr...isco-news-call

Specifically, "The combined gift of the morgues from the San Francisco News and Hearst’s San Francisco Call-Bulletin was an estimated 2 million photographs. The San Francisco News-Call Bulletin Photo Morgue represents the working files created and used by the newspapers’ staff between the 1920s and September 1965."

This doesn't clear up why International Film Service would've been typed onto the back of this photo in 1924 - but a typing error is possible, something less likely had this been a stamp - but it does show a Hearst photo archive working out of the building typed on the back of the photo in the 1920s and beyond, so maybe we can't rule out 1924.

Lots of guesses, that's for sure.

Great additional info Bryan. And in seeing that photo of an older Tinker next to the one from the photo in question, and one from his earlier playing days, I have to concur and now don't think that is Tinker either in the photo with Evers and Chance. I wasn't 100% sure when I first saw the photo, but know how diligent Al is in selling and listing things, so I initially figured he had just gained some weight in his face over the years, and him chomping on a cigar caused enough change in the facial expression and features that it was perfectly natural Tinker would look a little different from his playing days in the supposed photo with Evers and Chance. But adding that much older Tinker photo, and putting it side by side with the supposedly two earlier ones of him, really brings out the lack of a normal aging progression for Tinker across all three of those pictures.

And if that isn't Tinker, that would make more sense due to the fight and ongoing dislike Tinker had with Evers for years. You wouldn't expect to have seen the two of them in an off the field photo otherwise. Also, it not being Tinker in the photo would make more sense for Evers and Chance being together because of their potential re-joining and working together in baseball as members of the White Sox coaching staff for the then upcoming 1924 season. And the possible photo op of Chance ceremoniously passing the ball, sort of as a symbol of passing the managerial duties, to Evers, makes logical sense then as well.

Great work in finding that info on Hearst's International Film Service company, and the various stamps they used to mark their portfolio items. The fact that such a stamp was not used on the back of this photo, but was typed on instead, and mentioned a San Francisco and not a New York city office address, is a bit perplexing. As you mentioned, Hearst did have a photo archive kept in San Fransisco for his Call-Bulletin paper. Perhaps he had the IFS photo archives sent out to the San Francisco office for safekeeping some time after he'd formally shut IFS down in 1918. This photo of Evers, Chance, and whoever this third guy is, may have just been included in with everything else sent, but not having been properly stamped as expected. Someone in San Francisco may have seen it lacked the proper source stamp, and just guessed it was originally the property of IFS, so that was what they typed on the back.

However, Hearst also owned a paper in New York City at the time, the Journal, and one would think they'd have a photo archive as well. So why send the IFS photo archive across country to San Francisco? Makes no logical sense, unless you consider that Hearst was originally from San Francisco, as was the first ever newspaper he ever owned. So maybe he did end up sending discontinued archive items to his former home and first ever newspaper. We'll probably never know the true, full story, but it's still fun to speculate, and interesting to read and learn about. Good stuff!

[BobC]

One more possible difference pointing to that not being Joe Tinker in the photo with Evers and Chance. Chance was the tallest of the trio at 6'0 tall, but Tinker and Evers were supposed to be the same height with both at 5'9. In that photo Chance is clearly the tallest of the three, but Evers does not look to be the same height as the person supposed to be Tinker. He looks taller than the supposed Tinker, and thus maybe adding more weight and support to the middle person not being Tinker after all.

[EddieP]

If you notice they are all wearing very wide ties. This became fashionable approximately 1924 when manufacturers started to construct ties out of 3 pieces of cloth. However, By the 1930s wide ties fell out of fashion. So at the earliest I surmise the photo could not have been taken before 1924. Frank Chance fell ill in the Spring of 1924 and died that September. So I’ll go out on a limb and say that picture was taken somewhere between January to April of 1924. Perhaps it was a celebration among the 3 when Chance was named skipper of the ChiSox?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by EddieP

If you notice they are all wearing very wide ties. This became fashionable approximately 1924 when manufacturers started to construct ties out of 3 pieces of cloth. However, By the 1930s wide ties fell out of fashion. So at the earliest I surmise the photo could not have been taken before 1924.

Another good item possibly pointing to this photo being about Evers and Chance passing the Manager's torch in very late 1923/very early 1924. Great catch Eddie.

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by Jobu

What if the photo shows Evers, Chance, and someone who looks like but is not Tinker? Below is the famous Paul Thompson Tinker photo, the fella in question, and on the right an older Tinker from a photo in the HOF's collection:

Attachment 523508

I don't think that is Tinker - lots of the facial features look different to me and they don't appear to have the same teeth.

If true, this removes all of the Tinker questions from the equation. And it seems possible that there is some symbolism going on in the photo - if Chance is handing the ball to Evers, this could well be when managerial duties were passed between the two, which would then place this most likely in a Chicago nightclub with the guy in the middle perhaps being the club owner or working for the team.

What this does not resolve is the dating of the stamp proposed by Bob. I can add to that some nice work by Jim Chapman who has a NY stamp study:

https://chapmandeadballcollection.co...tamp-primer-2/

I checked the 1924 San Francisco phonebook - there is no listing for International News Service but there is one for the International News Service, which was at 632 Mission St. - not too far away from the Call Building.

Looking around for information on the New Call Building, I found this:

https://sfpl.org/locations/main-libr...isco-news-call

Specifically, "The combined gift of the morgues from the San Francisco News and Hearst’s San Francisco Call-Bulletin was an estimated 2 million photographs. The San Francisco News-Call Bulletin Photo Morgue represents the working files created and used by the newspapers’ staff between the 1920s and September 1965."

This doesn't clear up why International Film Service would've been typed onto the back of this photo in 1924 - but a typing error is possible, something less likely had this been a stamp - but it does show a Hearst photo archive working out of the building typed on the back of the photo in the 1920s and beyond, so maybe we can't rule out 1924.

Lots of guesses, that's for sure.

Here are some pictures of Tinker using an aging App.

[brianp-beme]

One thing I have noticed that old-time players really seemed to age during their career, compared to modern day players. I have always figured that one of the factors would be that they played day games their entire careers, thus leaving them exposed to the ravages of the sun. I wonder if that aging app would take into account such a factor?

Brian

[bigfanNY]

Evers S81 silk

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

One thing I have noticed that old-time players really seemed to age during their career, compared to modern day players. I have always figured that one of the factors would be that they played day games their entire careers, thus leaving them exposed to the ravages of the sun. I wonder if that aging app would take into account such a factor?

Brian

That would only matter if modern players stayed indoors during the day. Players don't age only while they are playing baseball.

[brianp-beme]

Some interesting input...identifying folks in old photos can be fun. I instantly recognized Evers and Chance, but Tinker didn't jump at me.

One thing I do know is that Chance in this photo also looks a lot like Vladimir Putin.

Brian

Originally Posted by Shankweather

Are there any Cubs or city of Chicago historians that can tell me about this photo? Where it was taken, approximately when, and possibly who the people in the photos on the wall are? Clearly the main subjects are Johnny Evers, Joe Tinker, and Frank Chance, but I'd like to find out as much as I can about it. The LotG auction didn't provide many details.

https://bid.loveofthegameauctions.co...e?itemid=26868

[dealme]

Oldfield turned the first 100 mph lap at Indy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RCMcKenzie]

Great research, gang. I'd say that's pretty convincing. Here's a T36 I have of Oldfield. I wonder if he was even more famous than Tinker at the time.

[Casey2296]

Al’s answer doesn’t surprise me, that guy has more integrity in his big toe than some of these other AH’s do in their entire body. Just remember stuff like this when you’re considering an AH to consign to.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Al’s answer doesn’t surprise me, that guy has more integrity in his big toe than some of these other AH’s do in their entire body. Just remember stuff like this when you’re considering an AH to consign to.

most definitely

[GeoPoto]

Walter Johnson would come to be known as "The Big Train," and was so named by Grantland Rice because of his peerless fastball. "Barney" was his other nickname, and that one originated with contemporary auto racer Barney Oldfield, who had reached speeds of 60 miles per hour. Johnson purchased a two-cylinder motor car, his first vehicle. He later told of being stopped for speeding immediately following the purchase, not two blocks from the dealership. Teammates Clyde Milan and Germany Schaefer were along for the ride, and the mischievous Schaefer told the police officer that Johnson was Barney Oldfield in the flesh. When Walter began showing a propensity for striking people out, the nickname "Barney" stuck. Within a year, the battle cry around the league was that when facing Johnson and you saw his arm go up, you swung! (The Washington Senators by Tom Deveaux.)

[EddieP]

Reckon might as well put the postcard in for completeness sake