Ineptness of Authenticators/Graders

[ullmandds]

So I'm perusing the mile high catalog that just arrived today and I stop on page 116 as I see a slew of babe ruth cards...specifically lot 308...a w575-2 babe ruth hand cut card. graded by SGC a 1. 2 of the three corners are gone...1 is dangling. Hand cut...missing 2-3 corners...SGC graded it a 1.

I've experienced SGC as of lately giving tons of cards the scarlet A...in many cases the explanation is a mystery.

This is certainly not meant to bash SGC...as I find them miles better than PSA.

Grading standards have changed with the wind with PSA over the years...SGC grading incredibly harsh these days. Why? To reward early adopters? We all know some receive preferential treatment when it comes to grading.

My query is this...is there any other hobby...area of collecting...where the authenticators/expert graders are as inept as they are in this hobby. Where the standards have changed so much over time...where there is so much ineptitude and corruption.

I have a hard time believing there is?

[Jewish-collector]

Grading is like the dental industry. Everyone has a different opinion of the condition of teeth, right ?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

Grading is like the dental industry. Everyone has a different opinion of the condition of teeth, right ?

good one! same same...but very different!!!!

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

So I'm perusing the mile high catalog that just arrived today and I stop on page 116 as I see a slew of babe ruth cards...specifically lot 308...a w575-2 babe ruth hand cut card. graded by SGC a 1. 2 of the three corners are gone...1 is dangling. Hand cut...missing 2-3 corners...SGC graded it a 1.

I've experienced SGC as of lately giving tons of cards the scarlet A...in many cases the explanation is a mystery.

This is certainly not meant to bash SGC...as I find them miles better than PSA.

Grading standards have changed with the wind with PSA over the years...SGC grading incredibly harsh these days. Why? To reward early adopters? We all know some receive preferential treatment when it comes to grading.

My query is this...is there any other hobby...area of collecting...where the authenticators/expert graders are as inept as they are in this hobby. Where the standards have changed so much over time...where there is so much ineptitude and corruption.

I have a hard time believing there is?

I am not in any other hobby so I cannot specifically comment on the comparison in other collectibles markets but in this one, we really need to expect and get better on the authentication side. There is no consistency over time, no consistency from TPG to TPG and at any given moment, favors are clearly being done where the cards are graded based on who submitted them, as opposed to what was submitted. I love holders but I find the whole game disgusting but not disgusting enough to collect raw just disgusting enough to stop lining the pockets of the TPG until they get it right--an exercise in futility.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I've experienced SGC as of lately giving tons of cards the scarlet A...in many cases the explanation is a mystery.

Arrgh, don’t get me started on that Scarlet A. I am whining about SGC in the basketball forum now.

And when I asked as to why it got that grade. The answer I got was the graders do not keep any of their notes for determining grades. To me, that sucks. Why would a company not keep those type of records. With all the virtual technologies that exist today, those notes are nothing more than bits on a storage array. And with cloud service, a company does not even have to keep any of that on site. And it is stored and maintained forever.

Blah

Butthurt in Colorado

B. T.

As for a grading standard, I look to coins, it is pretty much cut and dry as to a coin and how it gets graded. Don’t see why card graders cannot come up with a standard like coins.

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

Arrgh, don’t get me started on that Scarlet A. I am whining about SGC in the basketball forum now.

And when I asked as to why it got that grade. The answer I got was the graders do not keep any of their notes for determining grades. To me, that sucks. Why would a company not keep those type of records.

I take it was not your submission? I think they do tell the original submitter why it gets an A on the sheet that gets sent back with the cards...but I've gotten the same reply when I've inquired directly with SGC about a card graded A, they don't keep notes.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

I take it was not your submission? I think they do tell the original submitter why it gets an A on the sheet that gets sent back with the cards...but I've gotten the same reply when I've inquired directly with SGC about a card graded A, they don't keep notes.

I am the original submitter. The reply from them is what I received. I was told it had evidence of trimming. I disagree. I wanted to know the specifics as to how the grader came to that conclusion. No details other than the trimming comment.

B. T.

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

I am the original submitter. The reply from them is what I received. I was told it had evidence of trimming. I disagree.

Ah, ok. They just wouldn't give you the specifics of what they observed I guess.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

Ah, ok. They just wouldn't give you the specifics of what they observed I guess.

Exactly.

Here is the link to my OP.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=312734

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

I am the original submitter. The reply from them is what I received. I was told it had evidence of trimming. I disagree. I wanted to know the specifics as to how the grader came to that conclusion. No details other than the trimming comment.

B. T.

Submitters are only paying SGC to provide its opinion concerning a card’s overall grade. That is it. This does not include notes, reasoning, bases, debates, arguments, etc.

I’ve never met a person who didn’t think his/her cards were under graded. Just go look at the B/S/T section. Count how many “under graded” and “looks much better,” blah-blah comments you see.

Can you imagine how much slower the process would become, and how much more expensive as well, if a grader, who graded a card a month ago, had to pull up his/her notes and look at the scanned database photo and then answer an e-mail or telephone call? It wouldn’t stop.

The grader wouldn’t have time to grade cards. Including detailed notes and comments on the front-end would also slow the process down and reduce how many cards that grader could grade each day, which would add to backlogs.

Every Tom, Dick and Harry would call or email asking why their card was graded a 4.5 and not a 5.0. It wouldn’t end.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

Submitters are only paying SGC to provide its opinion concerning a card’s overall grade. That is it. This does not include notes, reasoning, bases, debates, arguments, etc.

I’ve never met a person who didn’t think his/her cards were under graded. Just go look at the B/S/T section. Count how many “under graded” and “looks much better,” blah-blah comments you see.

Can you imagine how much slower the process would become, and how much more expensive as well, if a grader, who graded a card a month ago, had to pull up his/her notes and look at the scanned database photo and then answer an e-mail or telephone call? It wouldn’t stop.

The grader wouldn’t have time to grade cards. Including detailed notes and comments on the front-end would also slow the process down and reduce how many cards that grader could grade each day, which would add to backlogs.

Every Tom, Dick and Harry would call or email asking why their card was graded a 4.5 and not a 5.0. It wouldn’t end.

For the price you're paying to get these cards graded, let's say at the $250 level, I should have full access to graders notes and at least a phone call from Brent explaining why.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

Arrgh, don’t get me started on that Scarlet A. I am whining about SGC in the basketball forum now.

And when I asked as to why it got that grade. The answer I got was the graders do not keep any of their notes for determining grades. To me, that sucks. Why would a company not keep those type of records. With all the virtual technologies that exist today, those notes are nothing more than bits on a storage array. And with cloud service, a company does not even have to keep any of that on site. And it is stored and maintained forever.

Blah

Butthurt in Colorado

B. T.

As for a grading standard, I look to coins, it is pretty much cut and dry as to a coin and how it gets graded. Don’t see why card graders cannot come up with a standard like coins.

I read an article by a major coin dealer a few years ago about how grading standards had slid over the years even through the TPGs.
Where a grade used to NEED to have a full clear "liberty" it became acceptable to call it that grade if it was merely legible. Then maybe a missing letter or two was close enough.

Third party grading is pretty new in stamps, and still in the controversial phase. Slabbing stamps has pretty much failed. But they will include a grade on the certificate. Most won't if the stamp has any flaws, so it's mostly based on centering. I expect that will eventually change.

[Snowman]

Yep, it's gotten pretty bad. A lot of perfectly good cards that have not been altered in any way are now getting Authentic slabs. 6s are now 4s, 8s are now 6s. Is what it is.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Originally Posted by steve B

I read an article by a major coin dealer a few years ago about how grading standards had slid over the years even through the TPGs.

I think the opposite is happening with cards - grades are slipping down and graders are becoming more strict. A few of us refer to this as GRADE CREEP - the sliding of the scale toward a more strict interpretation and, thus, a lower grade.

i personally believe they focus more on technicalities than ever, and less on eye-appeal. Eye appeal was always an aspect in the first 20 years of card grading, and older cards produced with more archaic technology were graded ever so slightly less strict. Not anymore... they (SGC, PSA, and even CSG) are grading everything like its a 2022 pack pulled, sharp edged card.

[Brian Van Horn]

.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter

I think the opposite is happening with cards - grades are slipping down and graders are becoming more strict. A few of us refer to this as GRADE CREEP - the sliding of the scale toward a more strict interpretation and, thus, a lower grade.

i personally believe they focus more on technicalities than ever, and less on eye-appeal. Eye appeal was always an aspect in the first 20 years of card grading, and older cards produced with more archaic technology were graded ever so slightly less strict. Not anymore... they (SGC, PSA, and even CSG) are grading everything like its a 2022 pack pulled, sharp edged card.

And yet, we all want consistent standards. The corners and edges that are Vg on a tobacco card are really bad on a modern card.

The real problem is that change, once we've had a couple decades of grading older stuff traditionally, making the standards fit every set is a problem.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by steve B

And yet, we all want consistent standards. The corners and edges that are Vg on a tobacco card are really bad on a modern card.

The real problem is that change, once we've had a couple decades of grading older stuff traditionally, making the standards fit every set is a problem.

Why should it be a problem? Why can't you still have consistent standards, but different accepted sets of standards for different eras, based on the technology, methods, precision, and materials used to produce cards in those different eras? Say Pre-War (through 1941) is one era, Post-War Vintage (1942-1980) is another era, and Modern (1981-today) is the most recent era. Or break it up into whatever eras everyone ultimately gets together to agree on.

But there's the problem, getting everyone in the hobby together to agree on something, and then force the TPGs somehow to do what we all want. And because we can't seem to ever get together to agree on anything, the TPGs decide what they want to do and tell us all how it's going to be, instead of the other way around, like it should be.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by steve B

And yet, we all want consistent standards. The corners and edges that are Vg on a tobacco card are really bad on a modern card.

The real problem is that change, once we've had a couple decades of grading older stuff traditionally, making the standards fit every set is a problem.

Steve,
This is really what baffles me! "Back in the day" grading seemed to be more "what is reasonable" than what it has gradually morphed into. A grade never used to take into account whether or not there was a fingerprint or dust on the surface. And centering overruled slightly fuzzed corners on a 50+ year old card.