Leland's Idea of a Complete T206 Set

[Rhotchkiss]

I normally don't call out auction houses, but I inquired about this Tuesday at noon and I have not gotten a satisfactory or accurate response. So in the absence of a timely and acceptable response, I feel justified in advising the forum of what I believe is an incorrect Lot description.

Lot #4 in Leland's Mint Auction (banner immediately above and link below) boasts a "T206 Baseball Card Complete Set Minus Honus Wagner" and in the description describes the Lot as "near set offered here is missing only the elusive Honus Wagner rarity for completion. Coming in at 523 cards....." https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=107787

I saw that and thought - Wow, they are selling a Joe Doyle NY Nat'l (which would be even more crazy since there are only 9 and Mile High is soon selling one). However, in reading the description, I see no reference to the Doyle. So, I emailed their info email and asked if there is a Doyle, and if not, what is the 523rd card?

The response: "The Doyle is not normally considered part of the set of 524."

I replied that I disagreed, pointing out that the PSA registry includes the Doyle in its complete 524 set registry and the hobby widely regards a complete set as 520, but a totally complete set to include the "Big 4": Wagner, Doyle NY Nat'l, Plank, Magie error. I again inquired that if there is no Doyle, what do they consider the 523rd card. I was told Wednesday morning (after I already sent a follow up reminder email) that the query had been passed on to their card expert, and I have heard nothing since. I wouldn't think getting to the bottom of a 524-card T206 set would take 2+ days for a card expert to figure out, especially with the wide assortment of authorities on the internet (see links below)

The hobby has long regarded a complete 524 T206 set to be the base 520 and the Big 4: Wagner, Doyle NY Nat'l, Plank, Magie Error. Below are a number of articles and checklists that include Doyle as part of the 524 set; this is just a sample, as there are many more on the internet. I found no other source, other than Lelands, that claimed the set to be 524 cards, without one of those cards being the Doyle.

So, apparently Lelands beats to its own drum (no pun intended) when defining a complete 524-card T206 set, a drum that differs from every other authority, yet its not clear what that 523rd card is if its not the Doyle NY Nat'l. Those of you looking at Leland's "T206 Baseball Card Complete Set Minus Honus Wagner", just be advised that you will get 522 normal cards and something else, which is not the Doyle NY Nat'l.

As an aside, its very nice set and a great thing to own. Its just not a 523 set, fact.

https://prewarcards.com/2017/01/06/t...cobb-back/amp/

https://prewarcards.com/2018/10/24/t...tobacco-cards/

https://www.psacard.com/psasetregist.../t206-sets/215

https://www.t206.org

https://www.cardboardconnection.com/...ball-cards/amp

Checklists

https://www.t206.org/dl/T206-Checklist.pdf

https://t206resource.com/Check%20List%20524.html

http://www.t206museum.com/page/ch_reglt.html

https://t206guide.com/T206.pdf

Ryan Hotchkiss

[Jcosta19]

I'm guessing they are counting the Snodgrass error (which I admittedly don't know anything about). I'm basing my guess on the fact that they have it pictured along side the Magee error and the Plank and a red Cobb twice in the first 2 pictures of the listing.

But you are correct that doesn't make 523 by everyone else's standards. (but you already knew that)

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[Bpm0014]

The nodgrass “error” is not part of a 524 card set. So technically they shouldn’t even include that…

[mrreality68]

Wow good catch

I was thinking it only excluded the Wagner.

How could they have thought the Doyle is not included as part of the 523.

Odd indeed

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Jcosta19

I'm guessing they are counting the Snodgrass error (which I admittedly don't know anything about). I'm basing my guess on the fact that they have it pictured along side the Magee error and the Plank and a red Cobb twice in the first 2 pictures of the listing.

But you are correct that doesn't make 523 by everyone else's standards. (but you already knew that)

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

Ah, good call. So "nodgrass" is the 523rd card. Thus, Leland's "Big 4" are: Wagner, Plank, Magie error and nodgrass..... OK

Personally, I would put the Marquard with red 8 or the Murr'y error in there as "525" as quickly as the nodgrass.

Leland's FYI, to quote yourself.... The [nodgrass] is not normally (hell it never has been) considered part of the set of 524.

[Carter08]

Do the cards come with the leaves in the picture? I hope so.

[chriskim]

My initial reaction to this Leland lot was missing both Wagner and Doyle Nat'l regardless. NO way an auction house would be that dumb to include both Wagner and Doyle Nat'l in the same lot.

no offense, but it seems like no one would care as much as someone already has a Doyle Nat'l.

[drcy]

I just assumed it wouldn't include the Doyle

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by chriskim

no offense, but it seems like no one would care as much as someone already has a Doyle Nat'l.

100%!! No offense taken. You are right on. I am likely more sensitive bc I have the Doyle, no doubt - someone mentions (or goes to sell) 523 missing only Wagner and my ears perk up.

It doesn't change the fact that its not a 523-card T206 set.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

........Lot #4 in Leland's Mint Auction (banner immediately above and link below) boasts a "T206 Baseball Card Complete Set Minus Honus Wagner" and in the description describes the Lot as "near set offered here is missing only the elusive Honus Wagner rarity for completion. Coming in at 523 cards....." https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=107787

I saw that and thought - Wow, they are selling a Joe Doyle NY Nat'l (which would be even more crazy since there are only 9 and Mile High is soon selling one). However, in reading the description, I see no reference to the Doyle. So, I emailed their info email and asked if there is a Doyle, and if not, what is the 523rd card?

The response: "The Doyle is not normally considered part of the set of 524.

Ryan Hotchkiss

Lelands response is absolutely unprofessional (or just ignorance). Most of us in this hobby know the Larry Fritsch story regarding the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card (circa mid-1980's).

Furthermore, some of us are aware of Senator Richard Russell's original T206 collection which is on display at the Univ. of Georgia that includes the 1st known Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L
card. Refer to...... https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...=237816&page=1 .... (Posts #33 & 34).

I've done a lot of research on this card over the years. Including examining 4 of these Joe Doyle cards to confirm whether they were authentic (or not).

So, kudos to you for taking Lelands to task on this situation.


Take care my good friend,

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Sean]

Hey Ted, can you explain something? I always heard that Larry Fritch found the first Doyle Nat'l in 1980, but he didn't tell anyone until the second showed up in 1986. Was the Russell Doyle known in the '80s? Or was it only noticed after the second Doyle was auctioned?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Sean

Hey Ted, can you explain something? I always heard that Larry Fritch found the first Doyle Nat'l in 1980, but he didn't tell anyone until the second showed up in 1986. Was the Russell Doyle known in the '80s? Or was it only noticed after the second Doyle was auctioned?

Sean

Senator Richard Russell passed away in 1971. As a 13 year old kid (1910), he collected T206's in his hometown of Winder, Georgia. He would pull T206's from PIEDMONT packs.
His political documents and his sportscards collection (T206's, T210's and T205's) were donated to his Alma Mater (Univ. of Georgia) circa 1973. However, his BB card collection
was not available for public viewing until the early 1980's.

I'm not certain if anyone in the hobby back then was aware of Russell's Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card....or his red Cobb card with a "Ty Cobb" back



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[MVSNYC]

Ryan, when you're ready to take your set to 525, I have the first authentic Nodgrass that PSA ever graded...I kid, I kid (but I do own the Nodgrass)

I mean, ever since I started collecting T206, 30 years ago, the known complete set number was always (will always be) 524 (it's well known, that we don't include printing variations in that number). The big 4: Wags, Doyle, Plank, Magie. Hopefully if they see your thread, they'll make the proper updates to the lot title and description.

Lot Title should read- "Near Complete T206 Set, Missing Wagner & Doyle. 522/524 cards, plus Nodgrass variation"

[Michael B]

Unfortunately, in this hobby/industry many of the self proclaimed / self important experts take the Senator Charles Meacham (Ned Beatty) attitude - 'The truth is what I say it is'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlEo8PQChG4

[Casey2296]

I'm an E-card guy and even I know what constitutes 520 and 524. For such a significant offering it's just bad form.

[chriskim]

Lelands won't even bother to provide any high resolution pictures of a potential $300K to $400K set. I was trying to zoom in to check whether that Nodgrass variation was legit or not but I can't even see the name clear enough.....

what a joke!

[trambo]

I looked through the set and as was said, the nodgrass was their 523. I was disappointed to see it wasn't a real 523. Still a good set but would love to have seen the Doyle there!

[txaggie00]

Hey Ryan,

Thanks for sharing your experience in researching this with Lelands. I had the same thought about the set being represented as 523 with no Doyle. I wasn't really surprised to find that Doyle wasn't included but it bothered me that they would deviate from the standard definition of a complete set of 524.

Their poor/lack of responses to your inquiries is disappointing and turns me off of doing any business with them.

[chriskim]

My thought is Lelands will clarify it once it hits the reserve. They are still fishing open bids on some of their lots that have $250K starting bid.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by chriskim

My thought is Lelands will clarify it once it hits the reserve. They are still fishing open bids on some of their lots that have $250K starting bid.

You would think (1) Lelands would not have gotten something as fundamental as the definition of a complete T206 set wrong in the first place, or (2) they would have corrected it within 5 days of my email pointing it out, or (3) They would have corrected it as a result of this thread, and I know they read this board. But they have not.

Also, having looked at the Lot again, aside from wrongly describing the set as a complete 523-set missing only the Wagner, I think they have done their consignor a total disservice. They 100% should be selling the PSA 7 Cobb on its own (grade hidden in the pic) -- that is a $50k+ card that many wont bid on bc they dont want to buy a 522-card set + nodgrass to get to a PSA 7 Cobb. Same with the Plank, Magie, and, if they think the nodgrass is so special, that one too (among others).

Anyway, enough from me on this. I just wanted to point this out (yes, likely because I own a Doyle!!). Its a nice auction and I wish luck to all involved.

[3-2-count]

I too am surprised to see this set not broken up into smaller groups and the big cards such as Plank and the Psa 7 Cobb listed individually.

Although there is a reserve to protect the consignor, its my opinion that this set would garner more if it were broken up.

It looks impressive as one lot, but if its about getting the most for the consignor selling it this way won’t achieve that.

[AddieJoss]

How is lot #26 have no bids, the starting bid is $10k as in the description, but the bid is $50k? Also, the estimate is 300k-400k for 2 fight tickets with no date or fight card yet?

[obcjoe]

Dumb Question: Is there a regular Snodgrass in the lot as it is not 523 unless that card is included, just saying.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by obcjoe

Dumb Question: Is there a regular Snodgrass in the lot as it is not 523 unless that card is included, just saying.

Yes