That SCP T206 Wagner

[npa589]

Ok, first off - fraud is abhorrent and something I will never fully understand due to the lack of pride and integrity one must have to engage in it - so i am in no way implying fraud when asking these questions. I became curious after being aesthetically bothered by the incompleteness of the Wagner.

https://scpauctions.com/1909-11-t206...ys-holy-grail/

So, a few questions:

1a. What are your thoughts on this card being “inauthentically completed” or “restored” as it says on some TPG flips?

1b. Assuming you are okay with other Wagner restorations (I would understand if not) Do you draw the line on adding material? If so - following questions do not apply.


2. Hypothetically, lets say it is okay. Does it matter how much of the card currently exists? What percentage of a complete Wagner would you say remains in that PSA holder (assuming the standard size of a T206 - not that of the Jumbo Wagner)? It does appear its slightly more than 50%, but is there an amount added that would then delegitimize the card from even being considered authentic?


Anyway, I was intrigued by the thought of this and wanted to see if you were as well. For those who dont want to click the link, here is the pic.



IMG_0537.jpg


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[ncinin]

I actually had an opportunity to buy this card raw for $4,000. I knew what existed of the card was real but wasn't sure of how to sell it and passed.

Levi Bleam ended up with it and had PSA slab it Genuine. Grading was fairly new at that point and didn't think about getting it slabbed as it is or I would have bought it.

Levi auctioned it in SCD for around $7,700 is recall.

That would have been a good card to have bought and socked away until now.

[npa589]

Originally Posted by ncinin

I actually had an opportunity to buy this card raw for $4,000. I knew what existed of the card was real but wasn't sure of how to sell it and passed.

Levi Bleam ended up with it and had PSA slab it Genuine. Grading was fairly new at that point and didn't think about getting it slabbed as it is or I would have bought it.

Levi auctioned it in SCD for around $7,700 is recall.

That would have been a good card to have bought and socked away until now.

That is pretty amazing! I see it is described as to have been in the consignors collection since 1990 or around that time. Is that probably about the time Bleam sold it?


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[Leon]

Kind of ironic the first 2 cards PSA graded were Wagners.
.

[chriskim]

PSA probably won't encapsulate the card again once it leaves the holder otherwise I am pretty sure SCP would re-submit it for the latest label regardless of what the label says.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Leon

Kind of ironic the first 2 cards PSA graded were Wagners.
.

Also ironic they are both altered!

[ncinin]

When I had the chanice to buy the card raw it was at a 1996 or 1997 Chcicago Sun-Times show, if I recall. It as a serial number of 2 but slabbed later than the first card.

If anyone has a library of SCD’s check for the auction by 707 sports cards in mid 1996 through end of 1997. I think you will see the auction for this card.

[oldeboo]

I like the "Ripped in half" Wagner more than the "Lead pipe to the face" Wagner that underwent facial reconstructive surgery.

[Prof]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

I like the "Ripped in half" Wagner more than the "Lead pipe to the face" Wagner that underwent facial reconstructive surgery.

I hate the idea of altering them.

But, the one plus for owners of the Wagner is that every time somebody 'restores' one, that means the population of originals goes down.

[Aj-hman]

If unaltered / restored I believe it is more valuable than a restored card. That is an amazing card!

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Aj-hman

If unaltered / restored I believe it is more valuable than a restored card. That is an amazing card!

+1 agreed

[steve B]

Originally Posted by npa589

So, a few questions:

1a. What are your thoughts on this card being “inauthentically completed” or “restored” as it says on some TPG flips?

1b. Assuming you are okay with other Wagner restorations (I would understand if not) Do you draw the line on adding material? If so - following questions do not apply.


2. Hypothetically, lets say it is okay. Does it matter how much of the card currently exists? What percentage of a complete Wagner would you say remains in that PSA holder (assuming the standard size of a T206 - not that of the Jumbo Wagner)? It does appear its slightly more than 50%, but is there an amount added that would then delegitimize the card from even being considered authentic?

1a - without more info, I'm ambivalent about someone restoring it. I prefer original, no matter how bad the condition, but if it was mine and not in a holder I might print out the missing bits and make my own holder that would allow both to be shown together. Or.... maybe a transparency of the missing bits?
Not that I've done that for other really really bad cards in my collection, but a Wagner is a bit more special.

1b - I'm ok with properly disclosed professionally done restorations, which are typically done so they're somewhat easily reversible.
If it was mine, I probably wouldn't restore it.
An amateur hack job that wasn't easily reversible? Nope. Not a good idea at all.

2 - I think it's probably around 60%. Where we each draw the line at what's a card and what isn't is an individual preference. To me it's still a card, despite the major degree of damage.
Would I want a smaller portion of a Wagner? Yeah, if the price was low enough to actually be something I could afford. Or if I bought a scrapbook and there was a small identifiable portion on a page, I'd set it aside and call that huge hole in the collection filled.

I think that PSA potentially refusing to holder something like this as authentic is just silly. If that's how they are now, they should stop holdering a LOT of other stuff. Cancelled George C Millers, which if it's not the punch hole are literally half of a card. Anything that had a tab but no longer does. cards and panels cut from boxes.
To someone that knows the cards, it's just as tough to fake say 1/8 of a Wagner as it would be to do the whole thing. If someone is an expert, there's very little excuse for bailing on items that present a challenge. (Barring stuff like some stamps where the important bit might be say the upper right corner, but that's mising)

[Hankphenom]

I don't know why it wouldn't go for a lot of money, being THE iconic card and all plus the rarity. 500K--1M?

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I don't know why it wouldn't go for a lot of money, being THE iconic card and all plus the rarity. 500K--1M?

Would be my guess - 400k plus.

[Tao_Moko]

Skinned cards are ~50% of a card and sometimes the front is thinner than what was skinned and therefore could be less than 50%. I have some OJ's where skinning removed a small percentage on the face of the card. Does that make skinned OJ's containing a nearly entire front but, less than 50% no longer a card?

If you cut a Wagner with scissors leaving 51% the bottom of the card and 49% the top then does only the bottom qualify?

If you "restored" the bottom half by adding 49% to the top you'd have a card worth less than the top restored with a bottom.

My point is that percentages and restorations will never be able have a standard metric. Cards, no matter how complete or doctored, slabbed or discussed are only as good as their appeal to buyers.

[npa589]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

Skinned cards are ~50% of a card and sometimes the front is thinner than what was skinned and therefore could be less than 50%. I have some OJ's where skinning removed a small percentage on the face of the card. Does that make skinned OJ's containing a nearly entire front but, less than 50% no longer a card?

If you cut a Wagner with scissors leaving 51% the bottom of the card and 49% the top then does only the bottom qualify?

If you "restored" the bottom half by adding 49% to the top you'd have a card worth less than the top restored with a bottom.

My point is that percentages and restorations will never be able have a standard metric. Cards, no matter how complete or doctored, slabbed or discussed are only as good as their appeal to buyers.

This is a really good point Eric