Proper action for a stolen package from a Buy/Sell/Trade transaction

[facingthelake1188]

I am posting this at the suggestion of a fellow member with whom I have had the pleasure of several mutually beneficial trades/sales.
I would appreciate the input of the many veteran members on this forum as to the proper action that should be taken in this regrettably unfortunate situation. On Nov. 19, I purchased a 1916 Altoona Tribune Ray Caldwell for $225 + shipping from a long standing member with over 4000+ posts. Being a new member, I was understandable hesitant to enter into transactions paid via PayPal F/F with little recourse if things went bad but I saw that so many of you post all your successful transactions that I felt comfortable dealing within such a large community of fellow collectors.
Postal tracking indicated that my package status was “delivery delayed” while showing “delivered to” my local post office “on Nov. 23. Knowing that mail this time of year can be slow, I waited until after Thanksgiving before going to the post office to check on the delay. I spoke with the branch manager, a lovely woman who I have interacted with for many years. After going to her office, she came back and showed me an email she had already sent out to the postal inspector listing about ten tracked items within the same “satchel” (her word), including mine, that were supposed to have been delivered to the branch on Nov. 23, but were not on the truck. [She explained that even though tracking shows the package as delivered to the branch, in actuality that scan is done at the regional hub when the satchel is set for inclusion of the next truck delivery to the local branches in my area. They do not actually scan the packages when they arrive at the local post office. Strange but true] She apologized profusely knowing that these packages were clearly stolen by a crooked postal employee. A bunch of packages do not just go missing without help.
So of course I contact the member and relayed news of this mess and asked that he file a claim with his branch for the insured value (I do not know if he ever insured the package but most now come with a minimum $50 of insurance standard.) NO RESPONSE. I waited another week hoping the postal inspector might get lucky and again emailed the member requesting a refund. NO RESPONSE. Not wanting to out this person on the forum immediately because I truly believe the card was shipped as promised, and me being a fairly new member, I asked a veteran member with whom I have had several successful transactions, both trades and sales (cards and cash exchanged both ways) for his opinion on the appropriate resolution in such a situation. He responded...
“That's a real bummer about your card being stolen. That really sucks. Did the seller confirm it had been insured?*
Ultimately it's the seller's responsibility to get the card delivered to you, and if it fails to get there he should issue you a refund. My guess would be he's holding out hope that the package is found or delayed considering the issues with the post office of late?... but in the end it's on him to get you the card and if it doesn't get there he needs to issue you a refund. Is this a board member regular?”
You will not be roasted for bringing this up, but you can consider posting about it and not outing the board member but asking opinions on what to do. You will get a lot of people saying you deserve a refund... Name the card, what you paid and detail it all. But don't name the seller... yet.”

Sorry for the long story, but I wanted to tell it as accurately and completely as possible. Please give me your opinions, shouldn’t it be the sellers responsibility? Would it be wrong to warn others about the actions of this member?

[Shoeless Moe]

Can you post the tracking number, or screenshots of what the tracking shows?

[Fred]

You know what's gonna suck - after a bunch of opinions are rendered and sides are taken, the package will show up.

I really hope it shows up soon.

All of my transactions through the BST have all been completed without issue. I count myself fortunate. Lots of wonderful people on this board.

[Leon]

If nothing was mentioned, imo, it is the seller's responsibility to get the card/item to the buyer. It is the buyer's responsibility to pay for it. If the card doesn't get there it is on the seller for a refund. That is if nothing is agreed to beforehand concerning shipping.

I believe all 1st class now comes with tracking and $50 insurance. Again, on the seller to go get it if he wants it.

Here is a 1949 Vis Ed card of Doby....because threads need cards.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Leon

If nothing was mentioned, imo, it is the seller's responsibility to get the card/item to the buyer. It is the buyer's responsibility to pay for it. If the card doesn't get there it is on the seller for a refund. That is if nothing is agreed to beforehand concerning shipping.

I believe all 1st class now comes with tracking and $50 insurance. Again, on the seller to go get it if he wants it.

Here is a 1949 Vis Ed card of Doby....because threads need cards.

Based on recent packages I have mailed for cards I have sold, I think only priority mail comes with the $50 insurance. First class can include tracking but any insurance is extra. Given how things have been with USPS lately, I have been buying insurance on everything I have shipped because I would assume the buyer would expect a refund if the cards never showed up. Just like any other purchase from any other seller (business, eBay, private, etc), if the item is never received, the buyer would expect their money back.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Based on recent packages I have mailed for cards I have sold, I think only priority mail comes with the $50 insurance. First class can include tracking but any insurance is extra.

This is correct.

Also, it’s always on the seller to make sure the item is delivered. Sucks that it was “stolen” if that was what actually happened but it’s still the sellers responsibility.

Not really much to discuss here. Cut and dry.

[Casey2296]

I had that happen recently with an eBay seller, he mailed the package and it got lost in usps hell. I emailed him after about 3 weeks, he was frustrated and concerned, went to his post office, I went to mine both of us trying to track the package.

Our email exchange was fun, we talked about him being at Woodstock in 69 and my girlfriends family connection to that event, my love of the Giants, and his life as a retired guy selling cards. I made a new friend, as they say.

I could tell he was distraught over the missing item, I could also tell that it would have been hard for him to issue an entire refund, this was his biggest card that I had bought, a 4-in-1 at $340 I think. I told him we'll just wait it out, use our power of positive energy to will that card showing up at my office and not to worry about. He asked what we should do in the event it never shows up. I suggested he could refund me what he would have made on the card as a solution so we both shouldered a little of the pain instead of only one of us. And then I forgot about it.

Two weeks later the card showed up.

I don't have a suggestion on what you guys should do but I wish you both well in coming up with a fair solution.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Leon

If nothing was mentioned, imo, it is the seller's responsibility to get the card/item to the buyer. It is the buyer's responsibility to pay for it. If the card doesn't get there it is on the seller for a refund. That is if nothing is agreed to beforehand concerning shipping.

I believe all 1st class now comes with tracking and $50 insurance. Again, on the seller to go get it if he wants it.

Here is a 1949 Vis Ed card of Doby....because threads need cards.

+1 on Leon's explanation and I have a Feller in that weird issue Leon.

[x2drich2000]

I think your actions so far have been appropriate and reasonable. I'm also in the camp that it is the seller's responsibility to get the card delivered, unless otherwise stipulated. Since you indicate you have been pretty friendly with your local PO, have you tried following up with her or the postmaster/postal inspector to see if they have anymore info? Has the board member been active lately? If so, I would send him another message with a set deadline to make things right, or at least give you a good update/plan on how to address, before outing him. If the deadline passes without any communication, I would say to out him. Just because you are new to the board is not a reason for them to ignore communicating with you about the situation and it is not a reason you should be concerned about outing him. We were all new at some point. That said, the USPS right now is really messed up so I could see him wanting to hold off refunding for now, but he should still at least be communicating.

[bigfish]

Is the desired outcome of you’re post to get the seller to respond on the main forum?

Did you purchase insurance or ask about paying for insurance?

I have done over 100 buys from this seller. He’s not the type to not send the card.

I think the card could still show up. The postal service is a mess.

No great solution. I hope it all works out.

Merry Christmas

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by facingthelake1188

Name the card, what you paid and detail it all. But don't name the seller... yet.”

This part of the advice wasn't the best. Combine that info w/ the date you mentioned, and it takes just a few seconds to figure out the seller

[Gorditadogg]

It is the seller's responsibility to deliver the package, it is up to the seller whether to buy insurance.

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[Jim65]

It sounds like you've given the seller ample time to respond to your PMs. If he has been active since you sent the PMs, theres really no excuse for not responding. If it were me, I'd file for PayPal refund. If you paid by Goods and Services, you'll get a refund. If paid by Friends and Family, you are shit out of luck and just learned a valuable lesson.

[Fred]

Jim, most of the people selling on the BST request F/F paypal because there are no fees associated with the transaction. Just curious, what does paypal charge for the sales/service selection? What does it cover? Who pays for the fee associated with sales/service transaction?

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Fred

Jim, most of the people selling on the BST request F/F paypal because there are no fees associated with the transaction. Just curious, what does paypal charge for the sales/service selection? What does it cover? Who pays for the fee associated with sales/service transaction?

The fees are roughly 3%. I never ever pay by Friends and Family, I always pay the extra fees myself and pay by Goods and Services, no matter who the seller is. Its about protecting yourself. When you pay by Friends and Family, you are giving up any Buyer Protections that PayPal offers.

[bounce]

OP - can you post a picture of what the tracking says?

I've had a couple items go "missing" for about 3 weeks in the past month plus, if you get them to run a "trace" on the package at both your post office and at it's last known scan location, it wouldn't surprise me at all if it all of a sudden shakes loose in the system and turns up.

[Usc1]

Originally Posted by Jim65

It sounds like you've given the seller ample time to respond to your PMs. If he has been active since you sent the PMs, theres really no excuse for not responding. If it were me, I'd file for PayPal refund. If you paid by Goods and Services, you'll get a refund. If paid by Friends and Family, you are shit out of luck and just learned a valuable lesson.

Actually not completely true. I think numerous sellers think that F&f protect them. It may from paypal, but if the buyer pays via a credit card it could be charged back. It has happened to me when I sold an item on a different forum. The guy was a scammer.

[birdman42]

I came across this today. I used to live in Laurel, and am very familiar with this business.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...aurel-leather/

Bill

[Eric72]

Serious question:

If I sell a card here on Net54, and USPS tracking shows it as being delivered, have I satisfied my obligations as a seller on this board?

For the sake of keeping it simple, let's assume a PayPal Goods & Services payment. The buyer enters their own shipping address for those transactions.

[Jcfowler6]

There is no easy way with things like this. And I believe both parties have done the right things.

The risk could have been remedied by paying the 3%. I believe if the buyer wanted insurance it should have been paid for it. The seller mailed it then his/her job is done. I’ve always operated under that assumption when buying PayPal f/f. If I wanted insurance I’d add the fee and feel good knowing it’s covered.

I sure hope the card is found for both parties sake.


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[bobbyw8469]

I am curious to know the tracking number......can the OP share that?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I am curious to know the tracking number......can the OP share that?

Why when you are not involved in any way would you want the tracking#? I have never understood why someone would ask this.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Why when you are not involved in any way would you want the tracking#? I have never understood why someone would ask this.

He's asking ours opinions/advice, we should be able to see all the evidence to be able to make a fully informed opinion.

He should give the tracking info, or screenshots showing the dates and info.

Granted more than likely this is an open and shut case, and the seller will need to refund, but still never hurts to see all the info/facts and hear from both sides.

[RL]

it is the sellers responsibility to get the package shipped/delivered,
no delivery the seller needs to refund.

insurance is to protect the seller, not the buyer.

if you do get refunded and the card shows up, repay for the card.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Why when you are not involved in any way would you want the tracking#? I have never understood why someone would ask this.

Because I have shipped so many packages, I would consider myself an "expert" on whether the package was truly indeed "lost" or if he had a chance still to show up. Like someone else said, if he is solitciting advice, then he shouldn't have a probably sharing a tracking number....not like I can do anything bad with it....geez.......

[Brian Van Horn]

Only the tracking number for my sister's Christmas present has been deleted from this response I sent earlier today to Larry (12/.26/2020):

Larry,

I responded to your December 12 e-mail. I just did a search and found your December 21 e-mail which I wlll read shortly. Why shortly? I had brain surgery at UPMC Presbyterian on Wednesday December 2 for removal of 3 cm of the left side of my brain by Dr. Gregoris Zenonos. On Monday of this week, I went to UPMC Shadyside for fitting of a mask for radiation of the rest of the growth. I will also have chemotherapy over a same six week timeframe starting in January 2021. According to Dr. Zenonos, the surgery removed 91-95% on Wednesday December 2. The diagnosis is Anapolastic Astro Cytoma. Originally diagnosed this past Monday December 21 at a grade 3. The following day, Dr. Megan Mantica on a video call with my brother and myself lowered the diagnosis to grade 2. That was Tuesday December 22.

Now, given the problems with the post offices across the country, the plan was and is on my end to act on the matter today. Why? Covid and its resulting lack of USPS employees. This to give you another example. I ordered a Christmas present for my sister-in-law Tammy on November 30 (Order number -------) through Luca+Danni.

Also, please note I have mentioned my diagnosis to Al Crisafulli on Wednesday December 23 as well as to Helen Brose of Heritage Auctions on December 23.

Thank you,

Brian Van Horn

[Jcfowler6]

FYI. I just received a package that was shipped in Nov 2. These things are happening a lot. I have two other packages outstanding that have been be route for a few weeks.

I’d continue to be patient. And I would also give grace the same as I’d like to receive.


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[Jcfowler6]

Two points to consider Well here is “Goods and services” vs “friends and family”.

Why is there such a thing as goods and services via PayPal? The buyer can pay for protection. The buyer chose not to pay the extra fee.

The other side of this - did the seller imply that he takes all risk by offering “friends and family”.? To me That’s the question

With these both in mind. Caveat emptor - the risk falls on the buyer. Protect yourself. When you don’t you should not cry foul in my opinion.


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[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Jcfowler6

Two points to consider Well here is “Goods and services” vs “friends and family”.

Why is there such a thing as goods and services via PayPal? The buyer can pay for protection. The buyer chose not to pay the extra fee.

The other side of this - did the seller imply that he takes all risk by offering “friends and family”.? To me That’s the question

With these both in mind. Caveat emptor - the risk falls on the buyer. Protect yourself. When you don’t you should not cry foul in my opinion.


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Friends and Family was never intended to be used to buy stuff. It was meant for sending money to friends and family.

In this sale the seller asked for F&F and didn't give an option that includes buyer protection. I think some people don't understand paying by F&F means giving up any protection that PayPal offers. This isn't the sellers fault, buyers should educate themselves.

[Jcfowler6]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Friends and Family was never intended to be used to buy stuff. It was meant for sending money to friends and family.

In this sale the seller asked for F&F and didn't give an option that includes buyer protection. I think some people don't understand paying by F&F means giving up any protection that PayPal offers. This isn't the sellers fault, buyers should educate themselves.

I’ve had that option as a buyer presented to me many times before. To pay with f&f. I will often add 3% and pay via goods and services in those instances. I don’t always do that but when I don’t I know I am taking a risk.


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[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Jcfowler6

I’ve had that option as a buyer presented to me many times before. To pay with f&f. I will often add 3% and pay via goods and services in those instances. I don’t always do that but when I don’t I know I am taking a risk.


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I agree, I always add the 3% and keep my protection. Transactions can always go bad, if the OP used G&S, he'd have his money back.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Friends and Family was never intended to be used to buy stuff. It was meant for sending money to friends and family.

In this sale the seller asked for F&F and didn't give an option that includes buyer protection. I think some people don't understand paying by F&F means giving up any protection that PayPal offers. This isn't the sellers fault, buyers should educate themselves.

To the bold part. I have sold many items on here and used PP FF as one of several payments options accepted. I have no problem with the buyer then paying with regular PP as long as they pay the fees. I usually list stuff for the absolute cheapest I will sell it for. So it pisses me off when the buyer pays with regular PP and doesn't add the fees. Yes it is usually only a dollar or a few dollars but I still think it is BS.

To the original post, after a month a seller should refund no matter how bad USPS is at the time. If it does show up later the buyer needs to then pay the seller. Just my 2 cents.

[Jcfowler6]

Tired of seeing the term “side”. Who’s side are you on blah blah blah.

The problem is the problem. Let’s be for fixing the problem. That’s the side I’m on. Otherwise this experiment of Net54 is a failure and is no different than anywhere else.

I see the delivery service as the problem. Use PayPal good and services to avoid this type of problem. I think this current situation sucks for both the buyer and seller.

I’ve had tons of great interactions on this board and many great deals. Let’s keep moving forward.

Let’s make net54 great again. Lol. I need another bourbon.


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[cammb]

One of my reasons for taking the sellers “side” is that I don,t like outing another member like he was some troll on eBay.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Jcfowler6

Tired of seeing the term “side”. Who’s side are you on blah blah blah.

In the case of a card being lost or damaged by the USPS, both sides have been harmed. It's not that one side is innocent and the other guilty, good or bad. They're both in a spot not caused by either of them.

[Brian Van Horn]

Just to straighten out one thing in the title, for the third time this afternoon it was stated by Audra in Larry's Conger's mail office that there was no theft.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Just to straighten out one thing in the title, for the third time this afternoon it was stated by Audra in Larry's Conger's mail office that there was no theft.

I'm curious how they can state with certainty that there was no theft. If that is the case, do they know where the package is and then why can't they just get the package delivered?

[facingthelake1188]

Audra and I have had a friendly customer-postal worker relationship for quite a while. I sold on eBay for many years and dealt with her on a practically weekly basis. I complement her monthly new hair styles regularly and she goes out of her way to be helpful and straight forward with me as best as she can be given her employee status. Some things she may be comfortable telling me that would be inappropriate for her to tell other customers, ie: Brian. This definitely falls into that category. I have tried to explain this to thru pm not wanting to drag this out here but you disturbed by the tern stolen. Would you have felt better if I simply wrote lost/stolen? If it would make you feel better I would be happy to change the thread title to lost/stolen but I can’t and don’t see what difference or change of circumstances it would make. We are still here...same situation, same no package, same request for refund and same: I would simply resubmit payment if this package somehow shows up in weeks or months from now. How many weeks/months do you feel would be appropriate before you issue a refund as per forum (ie: Leon’s) policy on his forum? It’s now been almost 2 months, so what...3 months? 4 months?
On a side note, I am truly glad to see your recovery is going well.