I'd love everyone's thoughts. Here's what happened.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

I have a serious question. I bid on a few dodgers stubs this past week with Probstein. I have spent a very nice chunk of change with him this year, including the past few auction runs where I have gotten some dodgers stubs at relatively low prices (40-50 range) which I think is fair if not a bit cheap. There were a few nothing games that I wanted to add to my collection this time around (9 to be exact) so I put a few stupid high snipes in for 150 on all them just to make sure I won them. Keep in mind I have bid constantly every time his stubs have surfaced at auction with him. Now out of nowhere, these 40-50 dollar stubs all went for 100-130 and I wound up having to shell out 860 for 9 stubs. I paid because I believe in a bid as my word, however I contacted him expressing my concern, and he replied that he had the consigners ebay ID and it wasn't them who bid... he said maybe someone else wanted the tickets as much as I did... HMMMMMMM Has anyone else had a experience like this?

P.S I forgot to mention a few of the same ID's ran my price up on over half.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

problem is shilling, or pumping, or defending, or whatever your favorite euphemism is, is pretty impossible to stop, especially with a third party consignor. I mean I had a buddy consign some pretty high end stuff recently to a well-known seller, what (other than the risk of me winning, or my personal ethical code) is to stop me, as a seemingly unrelated third party, from bidding his items up. This really is the case with any auction, I'd love to say that a live auction is exempt from this phenomena, but unless all the involved parties are known to the auctioneer, it's just not possible to stop it.

In your case, I definitely smell a rat as the history was there just waiting to be exploited.

[sterlingfox]

Never bid or put in a snipe for more than you're willing to pay. I personally find it way too risky to put in "stupid high snipes" to guarantee I'll win something, and then assume it won't sell for more than fair market value. Too much shilling goes on these days!

[CMIZ5290]

Good luck resolving anything with Probstein aka Mr. Big

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Good luck resolving anything with Probstein aka Mr. Big

Haha what's Mr. Big?

[D. Bergin]

How to you get shilled up on a snipe?

Memorabilia is volatile. Something that sells for $10 today could sell for $100 tomorrow could sell for $10 the day after that.

Tickets and stubs are a niche market. All depends on who's looking for something on a particular day.

I'd guess you were outbidding somebody previously and they upped their game knowing you might be in the mix on similar stuff.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

How to you get shilled up on a snipe?

Memorabilia is volatile. Something that sells for $10 today could sell for $100 tomorrow could sell for $10 the day after that.

Tickets and stubs are a niche market. All depends on who's looking for something on a particular day.

I'd guess you were outbidding somebody previously and they upped their game knowing you might be in the mix on similar stuff.

You could be right that is why I am asking everyone's thoughts.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

How to you get shilled up on a snipe?

Memorabilia is volatile. Something that sells for $10 today could sell for $100 tomorrow could sell for $10 the day after that.

Tickets and stubs are a niche market. All depends on who's looking for something on a particular day.

I'd guess you were outbidding somebody previously and they upped their game knowing you might be in the mix on similar stuff.

*this*

I don't understand this either.

A snipe is a last second bid, you can't get shilled on a snipe. The only thing that could have happened on a snipe is that another bidder had a pre-existing high bid or another person had a high snipe also. In those cases the other person just also really wanted the card. This can't be shilling.

Shilling happens to those that bid before the end of the auction and a lower bidder throws incremental small bids in to try to find their max.

We all have likely gotten dinged by putting in a big snipe to win something. Hell, paid over 150 bucks for a 82' topps common doing this when someone else was doing the same thing...whoops

[Mark70Z]

I'm sure if you've been in the hobby Long enough you've experienced what you referred to in your original post. I learned my lessons early on in the collecting venue so now I no longer bid in the same fashion. I think my philosophy on things has changed as well and only bid what I believe its worth. If I come up on the short end it just wasn't meant to be; you can't have everything.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by sterlingfox

Never bid or put in a snipe for more than you're willing to pay. I personally find it way too risky to put in "stupid high snipes" to guarantee I'll win something, and then assume it won't sell for more than fair market value. Too much shilling goes on these days!

I am learning auickly

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

problem is shilling, or pumping, or defending, or whatever your favorite euphemism is, is pretty impossible to stop, especially with a third party consignor. I mean I had a buddy consign some pretty high end stuff recently to a well-known seller, what (other than the risk of me winning, or my personal ethical code) is to stop me, as a seemingly unrelated third party, from bidding his items up. This really is the case with any auction, I'd love to say that a live auction is exempt from this phenomena, but unless all the involved parties are known to the auctioneer, it's just not possible to stop it.

In your case, I definitely smell a rat as the history was there just waiting to be exploited.

I agree with you! 100%

[Enfuego]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

problem is shilling, or pumping, or defending, or whatever your favorite euphemism is, is pretty impossible to stop, especially with a third party consignor. I mean I had a buddy consign some pretty high end stuff recently to a well-known seller, what (other than the risk of me winning, or my personal ethical code) is to stop me, as a seemingly unrelated third party, from bidding his items up. This really is the case with any auction, I'd love to say that a live auction is exempt from this phenomena, but unless all the involved parties are known to the auctioneer, it's just not possible to stop it.

In your case, I definitely smell a rat as the history was there just waiting to be exploited.

I too agree, a bit shady IMO

[kmac32]

A big reason why I do not bid early on an item if I don't have to. I tend to snipe at the last second so I do not get shilled. Occasionally I am not available to bid on an item and I have to place an earlier bid that has been shilled to for self protection, sniping is my method. I do not use a sniping service so it is me and me alone in the last 2 seconds.

[Stampsfan]

Especially when you have listed exactly what you're looking for. Not hard for someone with an already dubious reputation figuring out how to take advantage.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Especially when you have listed exactly what you're looking for. Not hard for someone with an already dubious reputation figuring out how to take advantage.

Or potentially someone else collecting the same thing dishing out some payback for having lost out on earlier auctions.

For a while back when you could still see the bidders there were a few Japanese bicycle collectors with pretty deep pockets. And once in a while they'd get mad at each other over having won or lost a particularly nice item. The prices they drove each other to as retribution were amazing. Often better than 10X retail.

Of course a couple people here knew one of them and when we were debating why he'd paid 500 for a pair of French toestraps, his response through them was that he had it presold to a dealer for 1000 who in turn had a buyer at closer to 2000. The 500 guy spoke English but was uncomfortable emailing directly even when assured that his English was more than fine. The dealer and end buyer didn't and felt they couldn't do Ebay because of that.

Steve B

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by steve B

For a while back when you could still see the bidders there were a few Japanese bicycle collectors with pretty deep pockets. And once in a while they'd get mad at each other over having won or lost a particularly nice item. The prices they drove each other to as retribution were amazing. Often better than 10X retail.

Man, I do not miss those days.

There were several bidders that would watch everything I bid on as we collected the same material. I could only snipe because one of them would see I had found something and outbid me otherwise.

That and always getting a profanity laced eBay message every time I sniped someone who felt that bidding at the last second is unfair... that was fantastic.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Especially when you have listed exactly what you're looking for. Not hard for someone with an already dubious reputation figuring out how to take advantage.

So he does have a dubious reputation? I don't know him.

[1952boyntoncollector]

If you are prepared to pay $150, is your fault. You got what you paid for.

If you wanted to see if any shilling was going on, you could of max bid lower on some of the items say '40 bucks' and see if that winner was also the guy bringing up your other cards and see if magically that item went for sale again...

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by EYECOLLECTVINTAGE

So he does have a dubious reputation? I don't know him.

There are lots of previous threads regarding Problemstein...

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by EYECOLLECTVINTAGE

I have a serious question. I bid on a few dodgers stubs this past week with Probstein. I have spent a very nice chunk of change with him this year, including the past few auction runs where I have gotten some dodgers stubs at relatively low prices (40-50 range) which I think is fair if not a bit cheap. There were a few nothing games that I wanted to add to my collection this time around (9 to be exact) so I put a few stupid high snipes in for 150 on all them just to make sure I won them. Keep in mind I have bid constantly every time his stubs have surfaced at auction with him. Now out of nowhere, these 40-50 dollar stubs all went for 100-130 and I wound up having to shell out 860 for 9 stubs. I paid because I believe in a bid as my word, however I contacted him expressing my concern, and he replied that he had the consigners ebay ID and it wasn't them who bid... he said maybe someone else wanted the tickets as much as I did... HMMMMMMM Has anyone else had a experience like this?


P.S I forgot to mention a few of the same ID's ran my price up on over half.

its all about supply and demand that particular seller has a "massive following" his description is very detailed so they do not fall under the Radar
so when certain tickets come up for Auction starting at 99 cents no reserve
their going to get a lot of early action with no one scared off so they get vested in the auction , and when see they got out bid keep re-popping bids
more emotional with their heart than with their head sometimes some of his Dodgers tickets sell for under $40 due to the mediocre Game Result
Lets face it apart From the Ruth/Gehrig Era Yankees The Brooklyn Dodgers are the most sought after Baseball tickets especially Regular season
big collectors not resellers go after these "Better" game result tickets so they do not come back into the market for sale therefore causing more scarcity and higher Retail pricing ,
Trust me Vintage Brooklyn Dodger tickets are very sought after especially more meaningful games with so many Hall Of Famers that played their hard to resist , I know my limits when I bid for me its basic economics just set your budget lower and less buyers remorse but expect to win less
sorry about the long winded response But I spend $1000's on tickets every year so I know tickets can be intoxicating

[CMIZ5290]

It is criminal that this guy gets away with this garbage, and believe me, he doesn't give a shit, trust me. Shilling, etc... Does Ebay only care about sales? Evidently so....Keep on rolling Mr. Big....

[Snapolit1]

Probstein has about 400,000 positive feedbacks. 14,000 in the last month alone. 78,000 in 6 mos. Often does 1000s of sales a day.

I think it's reasonable to assume that he has studied everyone's in the hobbys collecting habits, carefully evaluated what they are looking for, evaluated what the range of their potential bids are based on the condition of what they are looking for, and then deputized someone (or maybe more than one person) to shill bid to screw that person over. Yep, all 40,000 of the items he is currently selling he has done this analysis for.

Seems very reasonable. While this level of due diligence far surpasses anything our IRS of CIA is capable of doing, I wouldn't put it by this guy.

Seems a little ridiculous to believe this, no?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Probstein has about 400,000 positive feedbacks. 14,000 in the last month alone. 78,000 in 6 mos. Often does 1000s of sales a day.

I think it's reasonable to assume that he has studied everyone's in the hobbys collecting habits, carefully evaluated what they are looking for, evaluated what the range of their potential bids are based on the condition of what they are looking for, and then deputized someone (or maybe more than one person) to shill bid to screw that person over. Yep, all 40,000 of the items he is currently selling he has done this analysis for.

Seems very reasonable. While this level of due diligence far surpasses anything our IRS of CIA is capable of doing, I wouldn't put it by this guy.

Seems a little ridiculous to believe this, no?

Steve, Very fair analysis, but even if true, Probstein could care less about what people think. I actually stuck up for him several years ago on N54, I absolutely regret it to this day.. To him, it's a numbers game, he doesn't give a damn about what people think personally. I first did business with him about 12 years ago when he was somewhat humble and unknown. Good luck with that now, and shame on Ebay for being such a coward over business versus business ethics..

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Steve, Very fair analysis, but even if true, Probstein could care less about what people think. I actually stuck up for him several years ago on N54, I absolutely regret it to this day.. To him, it's a numbers game, he doesn't give a damn about what people think personally. I first did business with him about 11 years ago when he was somewhat humble and unknown. Good luck with that now, and shame on Ebay for being such a coward over business versus business ethics..

I'm not defending him, never really dealt with him other than maybe 1 or 2 sales, but the level of paranoia that a guy selling thousands of items in a day is shilling every auction based on his understanding of the limits of certain bidders is really a little nuts.

Shilling is not without risks. . . . you end up paying ebay charges either way, and then presumably either end up with the item (and have to sell it again with more fees) or have to buy it back from someone doing you a favor. Seems like the economic costs of widespread shilling falling through might not be worth the time and money of someone selling this kind of insane volume, but maybe I'm missing something obvious.

(Now whether shilling makes sense with a high ticket item, like a 52 Mantle or a 49 Jackie Leaf or Paige, is probably a separate discussion.)

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Probstein has about 400,000 positive feedbacks. 14,000 in the last month alone. 78,000 in 6 mos. Often does 1000s of sales a day.

I think it's reasonable to assume that he has studied everyone's in the hobbys collecting habits, carefully evaluated what they are looking for, evaluated what the range of their potential bids are based on the condition of what they are looking for, and then deputized someone (or maybe more than one person) to shill bid to screw that person over. Yep, all 40,000 of the items he is currently selling he has done this analysis for.

Seems very reasonable. While this level of due diligence far surpasses anything our IRS of CIA is capable of doing, I wouldn't put it by this guy.

Seems a little ridiculous to believe this, no?

I've always thought that the problem lies not with Probstein (or an agent of his) shilling his auctions, but rather the consignor or their agent bidding up an item that they are selling through Probstein. A difficult tactic to police on Probstein's part especially with the number of auctions he has going at any one time. Much easier to just turn a blind eye and plausibly deny any knowledge. And this way everyone - Ebay, Probstein, and the consignor all make more bank. Why kill the golden goose?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I've always thought that the problem lies not with Probstein (or an agent of his) shilling his auctions, but rather the consignor or their agent bidding up an item that they are selling through Probstein. A difficult tactic to police on Probstein's part especially with the number of auctions he has going at any one time. Much easier to just turn a blind eye and plausibly deny any knowledge. And this way everyone - Ebay, Probstein, and the consignor all make more bank. Why kill the golden goose?

Tom, your comments would make sense on a very normal scale. This guy has been warned, threatened, and keeps on rocking and rolling. No, he can't keep up with all of the listings,but don't let this fool you. This guy keeps his hand on everything pertaining his business. When he squeezes a quarter, the freaking eagle screams..