Baseball cards of HOFers as managers/coaches

[jason.1969]

Feel free to regard this as a trivia question or just a crowdsourced request for help.

I would like to assemble a list of all major issue baseball cards from 1933-1980 that depict a Hall of Fame player as a coach or manager on a card. To keep it simpler, ignore any cards where the HOFer is a player-manager or player-coach (e.g., 1964 Topps). And for that matter, I'm okay ignoring Manager cards of a non-HOFer where the card also shows a coach who was an HOF player (e.g., 1974 Topps Danny Murtaugh featuring Bill Mazeroski as coach).

Some examples from memory are these, but I'm sure there are a lot more--

1933 Goudey Eddie Collins
1933 Goudey Tris Speaker
1949 Leaf Honus Wagner
1951 Bowman Bill Dickey
1952 Topps Bill Dickey
1954 Topps Billy Herman
1969-1971 Topps Ted Williams
1973-1974 Topps Yogi Berra
1973-1974 Topps Eddie Mathews

If you have others, please copy/paste the most updated list and then add yours in. Thanks!

[Exhibitman]

1969 Topps Joe Gordon, Red Schoendienst

[almostdone]

nevermind. Already listed

[Peter_Spaeth]

Goudey and Diamond Stars Hornsby.
Billy Herman is in 65 Topps and maybe other Topps issues of that timeframe.
Bob Lemon is in 1971 Topps.
Yogi is listed as coach as well as catcher in 65 Topps I believe.
Nellie Fox is listed as coach as well as 2b in 65 Topps.
Spahn is listed as coach as well as pitcher in 65 Topps.

[Rascal1010]

1951 Bowman Frank Frisch

[DBesse27]

I know Herman is in 66 Topps. Isn't Ted Williams in 72? Schoendeinst is in 72.

[Volod]

Man, the research on this would take days, I think. So, i will limit mine to just my local team, the Cleveland Indians. Only HOF players to be depicted as managers only, as far as I can tell were Lou Boudreau (1953 and 1955 Bowman)(if you count team cards - 1956, 57 and 58 Topps KC teams); Joe Gordon (1960 and 1961 Topps); Frank Robinson (1977-78 Topps teams, 1982-83 Donruss, 1982-2006 Topps various years). The two retired HOF'ers below were in the 1933 Goudey set - with the backside bios mentioning stints as managers of the Indians.

[begsu1013]

tricky one here w/ the designated rules, even though it kinda turns them into a conundrum w/ this example!

i think only the 64 would qualify, if he wanted the card to only be designated as a coach/manager:

only position:



catcher-coach:



manager:



catcher-coach:

[jason.1969]

Agree with Peter. But I wonder who it could be. This piece is more interesting than the OP.

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[jason.1969]

Here are more pics of these guys.

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[JollyElm]

The worst part of this research is putting in "Dick Williams" in the image search and watching what depravities come back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I quickly added the word "Dodgers."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe someone can figure it out from here.

[irv]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I gotta be honest, I don't see anything even remotely similar to Billy Herman's face…
Attachment 220309

But, man, does it look exactly like Dick Williams…
Attachment 220310
Same ears, same smile, same head shape, same chin, same nasolabial lines (Yes, I had to look up that term. The lines going down from the edges of the nose to the outer edges of the mouth.), etc.

Add to it the fact that they were teammates and it's easy to imagine the original photograph used to create the card was labeled wrong by someone in Brooklyn.

I can't see your pics for some reason, and I am not denying one way or another as I really don't know, but if the image on the card wasn't Billy Herman, do you not think this would have been old news by now?

I am assuming Herman seen his card from the series and if so, most likely would have said something, which, would have been documented somewhere by now?

Either way, it's a cool little mystery we have going on!

[jason.1969]

I took it to someone great with faces. She put it as less than 5% likely that the 52T and 54T Herman are the same guy (even two years aged) and less than 10% likely that the 52T Herman and 52T Williams are the same guy. A true mystery.

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[irv]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

I took it to someone great with faces. She put it as less than 5% likely that the 52T and 54T Herman are the same guy (even two years aged) and less than 10% likely that the 52T Herman and 52T Williams are the same guy. A true mystery.

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Interesting!

[Volod]

To me, it is almost certainly Williams in both photos. Look at the earlobes and the corners of the mouth - those features are identical in the Williams shots, but much different in Herman's images. From what I have read about Herman, he wasn't the kind of guy who would go out of his way to look at his cards, or care what was on them. And, as common players, neither guy's mixed up card pics would likely have drawn much notice, in 1952 or even years later. So now, a sharp-eyed Net54'er points out the mistake - I don't think the reaction will be any more than a few yawns among vintage collectors.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Volod

To me, it is almost certainly Williams in both photos. Look at the earlobes and the corners of the mouth - those features are identical in the Williams shots, but much different in Herman's images. From what I have read about Herman, he wasn't the kind of guy who would go out of his way to look at his cards, or care what was on them. And, as common players, neither guy's mixed up card pics would likely have drawn much notice, in 1952 or even years later. So now, a sharp-eyed Net54'er points out the mistake - I don't think the reaction will be any more than a few yawns among vintage collectors.

Finally, someone agrees!!! I have to laugh at all the people who have visited this thread and said it's not Dick Williams. I am very close to 100% sure it is him, but the naysayers will continue to pile on. I just don't get it.

It's also important to note that the cards aren't actual photographs, they are artistic interpretations of photographs, so they aren't perfect likenesses of the players, but they are very close. It's plain as day to me that the Herman card features the same person in the Williams card. All the features of his face, (except for a bit of pudginess, which could simply be the result of the photo being taken from a bad angle from below his face), eyes, ears, mouth, hair, chin, etc. point to Williams. And that smile and general appearance of a very happy person is quite consistent between the two pics. Plus, most of us were familiar with Dick WIlliams in the 70's, so we have a great sense of what he really looked like (albeit a bit older).

[irv]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Finally, someone agrees!!! I have to laugh at all the people who have visited this thread and said it's not Dick Williams. I am very close to 100% sure it is him, but the naysayers will continue to pile on. I just don't get it.

It's also important to note that the cards aren't actual photographs, they are artistic interpretations of photographs, so they aren't perfect likenesses of the players, but they are very close. It's plain as day to me that the Herman card features the same person in the Williams card. All the features of his face, (except for a bit of pudginess, which could simply be the result of the photo being taken from a bad angle from below his face), eyes, ears, mouth, hair, chin, etc. point to Williams. And that smile and general appearance of a very happy person is quite consistent between the two pics. Plus, most of us were familiar with Dick WIlliams in the 70's, so we have a great sense of what he really looked like (albeit a bit older).

Well, I never said one way or the other that you were wrong, I just wasn't sure, based on what I said prior, that this likely would have been documented somewhere before?

The more I look the more confused I get if both are Williams, or if that is in fact actually Herman in the pic/card I posted?

Not sure where this is going to go, but I must say, if in fact both are Williams, this must be one of the biggest error cards ever produced.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

...that smile and general appearance of a very happy person is quite consistent between the two pics. Plus, most of us were familiar with Dick WIlliams in the 70's, so we have a great sense of what he really looked like (albeit a bit older).

Williams was smiling just like that after he famously hoodwinked Johnny Bench in the eighth inning of the third game of the '72 WS. With two out, Reds runners on second and third, and a full count on Bench, Williams went to the mound and ordered Rollie Fingers to give Bench a free pass, but secretly instructed Gene Tenace to dive back behind the plate as Fingers threw strike three down the middle to a shocked Bench. Managerial acumen like that is what put Williams in the Hall.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Finally, someone agrees!!! I have to laugh at all the people who have visited this thread and said it's not Dick Williams. I am very close to 100% sure it is him, but the naysayers will continue to pile on. I just don't get it.

It's also important to note that the cards aren't actual photographs, they are artistic interpretations of photographs, so they aren't perfect likenesses of the players, but they are very close. It's plain as day to me that the Herman card features the same person in the Williams card. All the features of his face, (except for a bit of pudginess, which could simply be the result of the photo being taken from a bad angle from below his face), eyes, ears, mouth, hair, chin, etc. point to Williams. And that smile and general appearance of a very happy person is quite consistent between the two pics. Plus, most of us were familiar with Dick WIlliams in the 70's, so we have a great sense of what he really looked like (albeit a bit older).

Forgive my inferiority but I am still not convinced. Skin color much darker on the "Herman" isn't it? Eyes look different to me.